Breeding/Showing Question

~Dixie's_Mom~ · Dec 4, 2006

Yes - coat is very important - but you can have a lovely coat and no dog. There's been some movement within Yorkie judging and the breed to get back to basics - structure, movement, soundness and breed type. Yorkies are more than armatures for hair. Obviously, a lot depends on how bad this coat is. Ideally, the coat should not be wavey, but you do see people showing and winning with dogs who have a slight wave in the hair. Ideally, the dog should be blue and gold - the blue being a gun mental blue and the gold being a shaded redish tan, but you see dogs much lighter and darker than that.

For that matter - there's far more to the judging of the yorkie coat than just texture. Here's a Checklist made for AKC judges by the YTCA for example:
1) Does the coat have brilliancy and the ability to reflect light naturally?
2) Is the coat cool to the touch?
3) Does the coat hang quite straight and evenly down both sides of the body, and does it fall back into place easily?
4) Is the gold free from intermingling of black hairs cuasing a sotty appearance?
5) Coat color and texture go hand in hand - without one you do not have the other.
6) Does the tail show a darker steel blue?
7) D you see a blue breaking pattern down the part along the spine?
8) Remember, in the adult dog there should be no approach to blackness over the body coat and no sooty heads
9) Do you have any running color - gold markings exceeding their boundaries
10) Do you have black pigment around the eye rims?
11) Is the nose jet black? ( I HAVE GONE RESERVE TWO TIMES TO A DOG WITH A SNOW NOSE FYI!!!)
12) Do you have the desirable quantity and quality of coat in your adult dog witth respect to age?
13) Has the dog's coat color been altered by artificial means?
14) Some correctly colored and properly textured coats show uneven shadings of lighter steel blue. Check along the part of the spine or at the base of the hair shaft at any parting close to the skin.

As you can see, a lot goes into the judging of the yorkie coat. It's not "do you have the right coat or don't you." It's just not that simple. One dog may have the right texture but have very fine coat with no body, the next dog may have tons of coat but the coat is dry and fluffy (a very good bitch, who did a lot of top winning from a big kennel had this problem - who coat was too fluffy and dry- didn't keep the judges from putting her up!).

What's more - while we are on the topic of faults - this is from the 2004 "Breed Disqualifications and Rlated Factors (Faults, Penalties and Other Considerations) Quick Reference Guide - Sixth Edition compild by Joseph Rachunas:

"Yorshire Terrier No Disqualifications Specified, however . . .

other considerations
Colors, color of hair on body and richness of tan on head and legs are of prime importance in ADULT Dogs, to which the following apply . . .

- no mention of coat texture.

All that said, I go back to what I said in my last post. You must look at the TOTAL dog and decide how close that dog fits the breed standard. You are not supposed to "FAULT JUDGE." What's more, without having this dog in front of me, I would not comfortably give her advice - to tell her to spay her dog and dash her dreams of showing. The best thing to do would be to enter some matches and have someone experienced judging yorkies take a good look at this dog! The totality of the dog - may outweight some less desirable traits concerning the dog's coat.

Thank you so much for your post!

It was inspiring to me, and very well put!

~Dixie's_Mom~ · Dec 4, 2006

IliamnasQuest said:

Dixie's Mom, I'm glad you're seeking out information and that you seem to take the good and the bad both in stride.

You're going to learn a tremendous amount over the next few years, and starting with advice from those who are out there showing is a good place to start. I don't know much about Yorkies, but what I do know is that we, as owners, are not always the best ones to assess our dogs. As much as we love them and think of them as being wonderful examples of the breed, the reality is that we often have a hard time seeing the total picture.

I'm on my third chow, my second conformation chow, and I'm still not at all sure that she's going to be bred. I've been showing in various events for 17 years now and have had chows for 15 years and I'm still not sure I'm ready for the breeding side of it. I've had my current girl assessed by judges and experienced show chow people and they are complimentary, but there are a couple of things I'm watching on her ... and I'm not sure that I want to take a chance with her, either, in breeding. I'd be devastated if something happened to her. She is more important to me than any puppies she might have. So, despite her having an exquisite temperament (she's registered as a pet therapy dog), being amazingly athletic (she moves like a dream - proper gait but energy and athleticism too), having a wonderfully high intelligence (this dog, at 2, knows more behaviors than most dogs learn in a lifetime) and fitting the breed standard (although she is lighter than the "fad" - but is more what the breed was intended to be orginally) .. I still may not breed her, even if she passes all her health testing.

So .. learn from this girl of yours, but consider putting the dreams of breeding aside until you have many many years in the breed. Think of all that you can learn by doing showmanship and maybe some breed conformation on the side. Consider ways to prove her other abilities - maybe agility and obedience! There's MUCH more to a dog than just conformation. Learn from her, but don't make breeding her a high goal. If you are truly dedicated to the breed, you will find a top quality bitch someday that will be your entrance into the breeding side of things. Breeding a bitch that comes from unproven stock, regardless of the number of champions she may have in her background, probably isn't the way to make a name for yourself in the dog world.

Best of luck to you! It's great that you're starting out young .. I started with horses, didn't really get into dogs until I was around 30. I wish I had started younger!

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

Thank you Quest!

I still am not positive that I do want to breed. I know I would be heartbroken if something ever happened to her and that I'd be taking a risk. But as I said, I'm going to get the opinions of other breeders and handlers (I'm attending a show in March) and go from there. I'm going to show her, and see how she does. If she isn't titled, I'm not breeding her. If she doesn't pass her health test, I'm not breeding her. If she does both, then I'll think about it. I just want to be prepared ahead of time. I've already got money saved up in case she does have a litter.

~Dixie's_Mom~ · Dec 4, 2006

Before I forget...I have a question that I'd like an honest answer to. I'm on this forum to learn, and although I feel like it's a stupid question, and I may be "flammed" for it, I want to ask it, because I do want to know the answer. What is wrong with breeding a female that doesn't have show lines even if she's been titled? Dixie does have "show lines" but what I basically mean is a female who wasn't bred from show parents...I think RD mentioned something about her Dakota having good quality parents and grandparents, but that still isn't good. (I may have misunderstood). Don't all Champions have to start somewhere??? I mean, I doubt that if you went waaaay back into your dogs pedigree that ALL the dogs would be champions...right? And the dogs who were bred that didn't have champions were still bred....(geeze, I hope I'm making sense because I'm kind of mixing myself up...lol!) What I'm trying to say is, that it has to be near impossible to find a dog that has champion, upon champion in their bloodline, correct? If I decided to breed Dixie after titling her, would I be wrong in doing so because she doesn't have flawless lines? No, her parents weren't shown, but she has several Champions. Even if she didn't have several Champions, even if she had no Champions, she could still produce show quality pups, correct? I mean, if Dixie actually DOES get titled, that would mean that her mother produced a Champion puppy, even though she wasn't a Champion herself....right? *sigh* I wish I could put what I mean into words....darn. If anyone actually understands what I'm asking, please shed some light onto the situation. Thanks!!

lakotasong · Dec 4, 2006

~Dixie's_Mom~ said:

It is wrong because you are breeding pet lines. I do not agree with breeding pets for the sake of producing more pets. There are plenty of show quality Yorkies out there with completely proven/health tested backgrounds. There is no ethical excuse to breed a lesser dog.

MafiaPrincess · Dec 4, 2006

I would consider the unethical part in your case the fact that you are missing pedigrees.. and even if you pay to obtain them, you are lacking the history to go with them. A friend of mine breeds afghans. She can tell you 40 years of history on all her dogs. Medical, show, field..

I think it's great you want to learn with this dog, but this thread is full of yeah buts. People keep telling you junior handling is an awesome way to learn, and not to get too too set on breeding your current female, and you come back with yeah but.

While not every dog in every pedigree obtained ch, good breeders, the majority did. A few dogs were great in every area but the ring.

That is different than a pedigree with a handful of champions coming from breeders who didn't feel like showing. Learn with your dog, but take people's knowledge here seriously. Don't push so hard on the want to breed her.

~Dixie's_Mom~ · Dec 4, 2006

MafiaPrincess said:

When have I ever come up with "yeah but" for ANY of the advice here? I've been INCREDIBLY grateful for all the help, and have agreed with all of it!!! What are you even talking about? I also said many times that I was looking into finding a local junior handling club. Did I not? And when did I ever "push" to wanting to breed her? I've said over, and over, that I am not even sure I want to breed at all....I honestly don't understand where you're getting all this information....

I'm sorry if I misunderstood your post, but if I'm reading this right, you're being very rude, and I don't appreciate it.

Zoom · Dec 4, 2006

No, she's right. You've been given a number of reasons as to why Dixie is going to make a great learning dog, but not a breeding dog and you keep coming back with "Yeah she is and/but I think I might still breed her!" You can hedge that all you want with "well I never said for sure...but I do have a bunch of money put away to do it anyway" you are still entertaining the idea of breeding Dixie.

If people who have 30 years of experience in their breed don't feel comfortable whelping a litter yet, I don't see how you and your first foray into showing can.

~Dixie's_Mom~ · Dec 4, 2006

Zoom said:

Yes, I AM keeping breeding open as an option. I'm not trying to "hedge" anything. If I ever said that I "put money away for breeding" then I posted wrongly, and I appoligize. I have money put away for ANY costs toward Dixie. I've had this money in my bank account since before I even bought her. If I do breed her, I have money to care for a litter. I don't see why everyone's gone from being friendly, and GRACIOUS to being RUDE and insensitive.

I don't understand.

mightymitedoggear · Dec 4, 2006

summitview said:

Summit - I agree and disagree.

I agree in breeding "up" not "down" and feel that every purebred dog should be bred with the standard in mind. If you are just breeding pets, then why breed YORKIES, in particular, at all? Each breed has a standard that makes that dog what it is. Without breed type, there's no differnence than breeding mongrels.

That said, I am sorry to report that my other reason against breeding for pets is that is exactly what is going on with Yorkies these days. Aside from the designer "Yorkies" - the Yorkie-poos, the so-called "teacups" the so-called Chocolate Yorkies, there's something I find very disturbing - I have yet to deal with a Yorkie SHOW breeder who tests for PRA, CEFF, Penn Hip, etc. I am not saying no one out there does it, but the reality is, if you open up the Yorkshire Terrier Magazine and look through the ads, its very unlikely you are going to see much mention of health testing. I wish there was more, but this is a growing problem in the breed across the board.

What's more - there are some serious problems with Yorkies - liver shunt, enlarged hearts, patella luxation - just to name a few.

mightymitedoggear · Dec 4, 2006

~Dixie's_Mom~ said:

Very welcome. Go to http://www.ytca.org/ (the website for the Yorkshire Terrrier Club of America) and find out what the closest regional club is in your area. Try to get involved with them! Also, write to the YTCA and ask them to send you their educational literature. Also, check out http://www.sweetyblue.com
Great videos and info on this site!

~Dixie's_Mom~ · Dec 4, 2006

mightymitedoggear said:

Thank you!! I actualy visit the YTCA site quite often, and I contacted a lady in my area about Junior Handling, but only heard back from her a few times. Thank you for the other link as well! Thank you for being so helpful instead of rude.

mightymitedoggear · Dec 4, 2006

~Dixie's_Mom~ said:

Whoa! OK, as far as the coat maitenance goes . . . I see a lot of problems but I'm in a sticky perdicament. So let's get this out first - I sell products for show dogs - in particuar drop coated toy dogs - such as Yorkies. So I don't want this to start sounding like an infomercial. I'm going to approach answering this in as general terms as I can. For more specifics, please email me at [email protected]

Ok - that out of the way:
1) Do not use human products on a Yorkie coat, you will dry it out
2) Make sure that the pin brush you are using does not have any bobbles at the end. You should be using a high quality pin brush with a padded bottom.
3) You need a greyhound comb and a rat tail comb, it is also helpful to have a boar bristle brush - again, be sure that the brush does not have any bristles with balls at the end.
4) There's a split among Yorkie people as to whether or not it is necessary to wrap and oil the coat. Some people use products such as Coat Handler or Laser Lites Mattless but you MUST use SOMETHING. Those incredible Yorkie coats come by constant "liquid protection." I use Pure Paws Oil, mixed with water and sprayed onto a dry, clean coat. I then wrap the coat in tissue paper. If you are not oiling and wrapping (or at least banding and useing one of the other products I mentioned), this could very well be the reason the coat is not turning out the way you want it. All Yorkie coats need constant conditioning.
5) That brings me to the shampoo you are using - NO GOOD! Sorry for putting it so harsh - but that's as harsh as that stuff is on your dog's coat. Yes, I sell Pure Paws but there are many fine brands of dog shampoos on the market you should look into. Plush Puppy, Laser Lites, Vellus are examples - but the stuff they sell in Petco - NO GOOD. You need to be washing your Yorkie at least once a week. Dirty coats break. Realisticaly, if you are not wrapping, you might need to wash every day. That means you must use a shampoo that provides super conditioning and which wont strip the coat of natural oils.
6) In addition to all of the above, you can be adding oil to her diet which will also improve the coat. Things to look into: Salmon Oil, Coconut Oil, Flaxseed, Evening Primrose, B5 Complex vitamins.

mightymitedoggear · Dec 4, 2006

Oh forgot to add, you should spray your brush with a conditioner before running it through your dog's hair. I always wait until my dogs coat is completely dry before brushing. I use my fingers to gently break up knots while the hair is stil wet. I also use the hair dryer to dry the coat straight. I only use a "Duck" Hair dryer (a human hair dryer with temperature settings works just as well) on "Cool" until the hair is almost dry and then finish with a "warm" setting. This is to prevent the hair dryer from frying the hair. Sweetyblue has a whole series of videos on preparing Yorkie coats which are all SUPER. There's also a video available from YTCA. The Yorkshire Terrier Magazine also features articels from time to time.

mightymitedoggear · Dec 4, 2006

~Dixie's_Mom~ said:

You are MORE than welcome! I LOVE helping Juniors - esp. once who hande Yorkies! lol. You've got my full attention.

~Dixie's_Mom~ · Dec 4, 2006

Thank you for all the info on grooming! You've been nothing but helpful from the start!!

You weren't harsh at all.

Thanks again! Do you have a website for the products that you sell? If so, I'd love to visit it and order some things. I do bathe her 1-2x a week. Oh, and I have a question. Dixie is a very playful dog, and loves to wrestle with our other dogs....I read something about wrapping Yorkie hair that mentioned the whole wrap being pulled out, and it worried me. What's the best method in my case? Should I wrap it anyway? Thanks again!!! All this info is great! Now I feel like I can get somewhere because I have information to work with.

~Dixie's_Mom~ · Dec 5, 2006

Thank you for the PM!! I'm going to band it tomorrow once I bathe her!!!

Laurelin · Dec 5, 2006

To your question:

There’s Harry’s line, it’s not entirely made up of Chs. (Note the three from the sire’s side are JKC Chs, Ignore the pics, I couldn't find the scanned original version) Yeah, there are non Ch pairs that breed Ch dogs, sometimes great dogs. See that pair? Old River’s Oh Me Oh My x Old River’s Country Dan- they’ve had a couple of litters. (Not as bad as it sounds, paps only breed tiny litters). They’ve produced some great dogs. One of which is Harry’s mother. She’s beautiful, champed easily, great personality. The other is Beau’s father. Champed in two months, went on to special with multiple BOB wins over some fantastic dogs. Ended up at Westminster. Lost to Kirby’s son Nemo, but that’s besides the point.

The deal is, the breeder told me why these two dogs didn’t champ and she had pictures of them for me. One of the other ones, the great grandfather, Terri -Old River’s Solitaire – ended up not finishing because he knocked his front teeth out when he had 2 points to go. Plus, she knew these lines like the back of her hand, breeding them for generations and knowing the outcrosses as well.

The issue people have with you breeding Dixie imo is that you don’t know her lines, nor does it sound like her breeder would either. In breeding your first litter you will need that knowledge and the help of your breeder to go over the lines of your stock. You don’t know what’s behind her, even if there were show champs on one side. Not all of a dog is what you see. Genetics aren’t all apparent, and the best way you have to know what your dog’s genetics are like is to know the line. You still don’t know for sure, but it’s a lot safer a bet. Breeders that don’t have a clue about what they are doing CAN breed a show pup that does well in the ring. The issue is, the pup will not throw puppies very well most likely because a dog is not just what you see on the outside. Genotype is most important when breeding, not phenotype. Your dog could be fine, but carry things you don’t know and you don’t want in your foundation stock. If for no other reason, I wouldn’t breed her because if you are just getting into showing you do not want to start out by producing a bad litter of puppies with your name attached. You want your foundation to be as good as you possibly can get. I’m not trying to be mean or rude, I’m just telling you the truth. I don’t think others were being rude answering. You asked what we felt was wrong about thinking of breeding her, so they told you. We’re all a bit blind when it comes to our own dogs.

IliamnasQuest · Dec 5, 2006

~Dixie's_Mom~ said:

Here are my thoughts on it:

A dog is more than just the product of one female and one male - it's the product of generations of breeding that have come together in order to build the characteristics that make your particular dog. Two non-titled, non-show line dogs could possibly produce a dog that gets a championship, yes, but that doesn't mean that the champion dog is breeding quality. Let's say (I'm just making things up here) that someone has a Tundra Hound that is within breed specifications and gets its championship - but that the Tundra Hound's sire had longer legs than the standard asked for and the dam had shorter legs. They managed to produce one with the proper length of leg, but the offspring of that dog will have the genes carried on from the previous generations. This isn't conducive to producing quality puppies.

A good breeder - and I expect that you want to be a good breeder, and not someone that just has a dog and wants to breed - is going to carefully study their dog's pedigree to know exactly what is in the background. They're going to know what health tests have been done in the past few generations (preferably at least four) and what champions there are. They're going to know if there's epilepsy or hip dysplasia or PRA or thyroid problems (depending on what are common health problems for the breed). Many (or most) people who are not concientious about showing their dogs are also not tremendously concerned with health testing, so these non-champions probably have not been health assessed as they should be. And breeding from lines that have not had generations of health testing is really a bad thing to do.

Breeding for quality goes way beyond having one or two dogs that happen to earn a championship. In all honesty, it's not that hard to earn a championship if you really want to do it. It's not cheap, but I know of people who fill their own classes with numerous dogs so that they have the points, and because they are trying to title a particular dog they will make sure to show that dog to its strengths and have other dogs in the class that are lower quality and therefore will probably not beat the one they're trying to title. The dog that they title may not be that good, but because it's better than the others it will probably get the points (few judges actually withhold points because of lack of quality - they just pick the best one of the bunch). So there you have a not-so-good dog with a championship. Whoopee. It doesn't happen ALL the time, but I've seen it done. In a pedigree full of champions, however, it's really unlikely that they all bought their championships.

In my not so humble opinion, no dog should be bred without proving way more than conformation. They should be breed surveyed, preferably, meaning that they have a written assessment done by at LEAST two people who are highly experienced in the breed. They should be temperament tested - at a minimum should complete a CGC or a BH. They should prove intelligence and workability by earning an obedience and/or an agility title - preferably more than one. And ideally they will also show that they possess the instincts that the breed should have - a herding dog should have herding instinct, a hunting dog should have hunting instinct, etc.

In a perfect world ... this would all happen.

Anyway, hope that answered your question!

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

~Dixie's_Mom~ · Dec 5, 2006

Laurelin & Quest,

THANK YOU!!!

Those both really answered my question. I think you guys are right. I was blinded by the fact that Dixie is my baby, and not really looking at her or her pedigree. I still want to show, but I'm going to at least look into finding a better quality Yorkie. Do any of you guys know of a top knotch Yorkie breeder? I'd be interested in contacting them. Are the breeders listed on YTCA all good breeders? Does the club check them out? Because I thought I saw some that are fairly close-by...I wouldn't be able to purchase a pup for 1-2 years, but in that time I could be doing juniors with Dixie I suppose. I really do want Dixie to turn out nicely, but I suppose her lines will never change....

RD · Dec 5, 2006

~Dixie's_Mom~ said:

I see what you mean, and keep in mind that there are no flawless lines. Anywhere. You'll find problems with dogs in any pedigree.

However . . . When a line continues for generations, with pet quality dogs being bred to more pet dogs, it'll deteriorate. It doesn't matter if there were show dogs behind those pets - some of the most quality show lines can be ruined with some bad breeding. The quality of the breedings will go down, and you'll now have entire litters full of pets. Dixie is one of the more correct ones from that breeder, I'd guess. Have you seen her siblings, by any chance?

She's a pretty pup but those generations of pet quality dogs behind her are going to show up in her offspring. If you still want to breed her while risking that, I have to ask - why? Why put her at risk for a mediocre pup when you can buy an excellent quality show bitch for less money and far less stress and heartache. Breeding is somewhat of a crap shoot, and good pups do pop up in the strangest places sometimes. . . but if you're playing the odds, the odds of Dixie producing a good show pup are very very slim.

BUT . . . Don't get discouraged because of that! Just because Dixie doesn't have the right stuff for breeding doesn't mean she would be a total flop in the show ring. I'd still get out there and talk to people, take Mightymite's advice on grooming, and get her in the ring.

Oh, and I think you did misunderstand me. One side of Dakota's pedigree is great, the other side is pretty bad (to me at least - that's actually the fancy looking, titled side of his pedigree but they're Australian show lines, something I really don't want in my breeding program) I could cross my fingers and hope that he passes on the traits that I like about the "good" side and doesn't pass on any of the traits from the "bad" side, but it is so much easier for me to just get another puppy from a breeder who has dogs from lines that i like.

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