Anxiety in public, reactivness and lunging...

[showdawgz]

I guess Smkie imagined the hundreds of Field Trial championships her dogs won then...knowing nothing about building drive, grip and focus after all.

Are you guys so stonewalled that you cannot see when someone is half-way agreeing with you, yet providing a different angle to the same end?

Field work is completely different. Hunting dogs are trained out in the field, owners must have control from the beggining. I dont start drive building where my dog can wander off, like I said manipulate the environment, I have that luxury, hunters do not. But then again hunting dogs have prey drives that are very easy to bring out.

Unless we (me and Smkie) are working towards the same goal, then out opinions and training cannot be compared. Her dogs run the fields mine are on a longline. Like I said I have the luxury to not control and diminish my dogs drives. They are completely different dogs with different desires. I dont work with young hunters, I dont know how they are specifically trained, I dont know what kind of drive building is done (if any). You all see what schutzhund dogs are supposed to be not what steps are taken to make them that way, just like I see only the final picture of hunting dogs.

 

[Dekka]

So you do drive building, huh? All dogs have some level prey drive, but how often do you work to increase their drive? Drive building isn't jsut throwing a ball around or toy. Or using the toy or food to get what you want from the dog. Its trickier than you think.

You will see that most trainers who plan on doing drive work do not believe in correcting puppies/young adults. When corrections are introduced the dog is already very confident (through drive building) so the corrections usually will not affect the older more mature dog.

If they dont' affect them why bother? (no really I know what you are saying but it does sound silly when written out)

And training in drive, isn't a concept kept to the schutzhund type trainers/dogs.

 

[showdawgz]

If they dont' affect them why bother? (no really I know what you are saying but it does sound silly when written out)

And training in drive, isn't a concept kept to the schutzhund type trainers/dogs.

No, its not training in drive. Everyone trains/teaches in drive (with toys or treats). Building drive is completely different. The goal is not to get the dog to sit or down, its to bring up that desire to pocess the prey item (and by prey I am refferring to ball on a string or tug or rag, maybe better understood as play drive). You want the dog to do everything in its power to get the item. That includes, jumping barking ect, things that will be important in more advanced training. You cant have a pp dog who is scared to jump or has been discouraged to bark. My young dogs arent out of control, but they are allowed to be a pup and grow up, no corrections no discouraging of behaviors.

I honestly have no idea why we are arguing.

 

[Zoom]

Field work is completely different. Hunting dogs are trained out in the field, owners must have control from the beggining. I dont start drive building where my dog can wander off, like I said manipulate the environment, I have that luxury, hunters do not. But then again hunting dogs have prey drives that are very easy to bring out.

Unless we (me and Smkie) are working towards the same goal, then out opinions and training cannot be compared. Her dogs run the fields mine are on a longline. Like I said I have the luxury to not control and diminish my dogs drives. They are completely different dogs with different desires. I dont work with young hunters, I dont know how they are specifically trained, I dont know what kind of drive building is done (if any). You all see what schutzhund dogs are supposed to be not what steps are taken to make them that way, just like I see only the final picture of hunting dogs.

So don't give blanket blow-off criticism if you don't know what goes on in the training. And this statement

Unless we are working towards the same goal, then our opinions and training cannot be compared.

should really really REALLY be kept at the forefront of everyone's minds when talking about training!!!!!!

 

[showdawgz]

If they dont' affect them why bother? (no really I know what you are saying but it does sound silly when written out)

Yes, it does sound silly, I meant corrections will not affect their drive once they are more confident. I really dont use corrections as much as most of you all think. The only times I do use corrections is when my dog exibits agression (this does not include growling), that isnt caused by fear. And when my dog is in drive and has not learned how to out properly or to get its attention. Other than that my dogs are free, freer than most dogs. And they are all happy, as hard as it may seem to you all.

I will say this one last time, just because you do use some form of correction in certain situations does not mean that is your basis of training. Doesnt mean your 100% pro koehler.

 

[showdawgz]

So don't give blanket blow-off criticism if you don't know what goes on in the training. And this statement should really really REALLY be kept at the forefront of everyone's minds when talking about training!!!!!!

I didnt critisize anyone, Smkie obviously knows nothing about my training, as I know nothing about hers, its all mutual. But yall know everything about my training, right? And can deem my opinions (from my training) wrong from the get-go without understanding where I'm coming from.

The only reason I bring up my protection training is to defend my views, that are always always ALWAYS ridiculed by people who are supposedly training gods who allow their dogs to lung out in public, display agression, and have out of control dogs. Just because I believe what I do, does not make my opinion wrong or invalid.

I never offered any advice on this thread, I simply said that the beating a dog Richling crap was getting played out. And making assumptions about someone just because they do use some form of correction does not mean you can lump them in the strickly koehler group and assume they do not use some form of positive reinforcements. With one single comment about the maturity of a statement, I was attacked and ridiculed. And continued to post, in attempt to defend myself.

 

[Buddy'sParents]

The only reason I bring up my protection training is to defend my views, that are always always ALWAYS ridiculed by people who are supposedly training gods who allow their dogs to lung out in public, display agression, and have out of control dogs. Just because I believe what I do, does not make my opinion wrong or invalid.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Big assumptions on your behalf.

Sounds like you've encountered some shady dog-owning people in your life.

But don't come here and accuse those who use positive methods of having dogs who are allowed to lunge in public, display aggression and act out of control. This is the problem- you're not taking the time to acknowledge who the trainers here are and what they believe and what they have known and experienced to actually work.

So you do what you do and it works for you. These people who post do what they do and it works for them. They don't agree with abusive training methods on dogs. End of story. You don't have to like them disagreeing with you, but don't call them wrong because they don't see the pot of gold at the end of your rainbow.

 

[Renee750il]

Field work is completely different. Hunting dogs are trained out in the field, owners must have control from the beggining. I dont start drive building where my dog can wander off, like I said manipulate the environment, I have that luxury, hunters do not. But then again hunting dogs have prey drives that are very easy to bring out.

Unless we (me and Smkie) are working towards the same goal, then out opinions and training cannot be compared. Her dogs run the fields mine are on a longline. Like I said I have the luxury to not control and diminish my dogs drives. They are completely different dogs with different desires. I dont work with young hunters, I dont know how they are specifically trained, I dont know what kind of drive building is done (if any). You all see what schutzhund dogs are supposed to be not what steps are taken to make them that way, just like I see only the final picture of hunting dogs.

What you've said here would seem to indicate that training hunting dogs takes MORE control and will and discipline . . .

 

[Purdue#1]

Let me ask the prong collar crowd this. Your biggest beef with +R seems to be hinged on the fact that you believe that our dogs are forever reliant on treats, despite our statements to the contrary. Well, let me ask you the same thing. Can you expect the same level of control out of your dog if you don't have your collars on? I see just as many dogs/people forever tied to their prong collar/choke chains as you do people with treats. There are just as many dogs out there that suddenly go deaf and dumb without a collar on...pop one on and sudden they are the world's best behaved dogs. Sorry, to me, that is not a fully trained dog. That is a dog that has figured out when they do and do not have to behave based on the presence of an object, the same gripe that the +P crowd has with the +R crowd.

In the end, it all comes down to the amount of work one is willing to put into their dog. The methods vary and rightly so, but consistancy and goals are key to both camps.

we are working on getting sly and mickey off their leash and collar all together so they will never need one for the rest of their lives.

 

[showdawgz]

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Big assumptions on your behalf.

Sounds like you've encountered some shady dog-owning people in your life.

But don't come here and accuse those who use positive methods of having dogs who are allowed to lunge in public, display aggression and act out of control. This is the problem- you're not taking the time to acknowledge who the trainers here are and what they believe and what they have known and experienced to actually work.

So you do what you do and it works for you. These people who post do what they do and it works for them. They don't agree with abusive training methods on dogs. End of story. You don't have to like them disagreeing with you, but don't call them wrong because they don't see the pot of gold at the end of your rainbow.

Really? last time I checked allowing a dog to lung and snarl at another dog is displaying agression *cough* Doberluv *cough*.

 

[showdawgz]

What you've said here would seem to indicate that training hunting dogs takes MORE control and will and discipline . . .

Whats your point? Smkie training is completely different than mines, and these dogs need control from the beginning, whereas mine dont because I am able to restrain them during the begining of their training. And that is why Smkie and I have differing opinions. That was my whole point. Funny, you all are getting so wound up, you seem to miss the points we do agree on.

 

[Whisper]

Not that it's really your business, but knowing her, she would be working on it, whether or not it has the instant quick-fix some trainers crave so much.
It's sad that there are are so many enormous misconceptions about positive training. Like we've said before that always fell on deaf ears, positive does not mean permissive. It doesn't depend on treats (some +R trainers don't even use treats for training!), it doesn't mean that positively trained dogs are allowed to do anything they want, and many other idiotic assumptions. Then the same people say "I tried it but it didn't work." You know why? Because they had no clue what they were doing!

 

[adojrts]

lol to muddy the waters just a bit more..........
For competitive agility, building drive in a pup/dog is paramount. And although it doesn't compare to protection work, it is similiar. We want the confidence, we want them wanting that tug so bad they are almost coming out of their skin. We also don't do anything to lessen that. Although, most people with their first agility dog, don't understand this and wouldn't tolerate a trainer keeping them from 'running agility'. If a pup/dog has to much control in the beginning of agility, you often lose speed and drive. Many of the top trainers will spend 15 months of drive building and focus, with limited obedience, THEN they start training for agility. For us we have to find that perfect balance.

lol as I said, just adding a bit of mud

 

[Purdue#1]

doberlov said she acts like its no big problem when he throws one of his fits. That's ignoring bad behavior. not correcting in my book.

 

[Whisper]

I don't know her method in that situation, but what would a correction do to a riled up dog? Aggressive reactons might make the dog feel more nervous and more uncomfortable, and get even more spastic and disconnected from what she wants him to do. How does that get to the ROOT of the problem? It won't do much good to their relationship, either.
What correction would you use if your dog wasn't listening to you and was behaving aggressive on leash?

 

[Purdue#1]

if he is being aggressive on his leash to humans or other dogs then he should be given a severe correction. It would clear up the dog's "problem" in a few sessions like VWilson said.

 

[Whisper]

Wow, that's sad. You don't care about the dog's feelings, why that behavior came about, or the fact that you can work through it without physically harming a dog. But that was predictable because it takes more skill and effort.

 

[houndlove]

Before we began our recent training, when my dog would start to react adversely, I would turn around and go the other way and get out of there because at that moment is not the time to train. The time to train is at the point right before they react when they can actually still learn. A dog who is so fearful of the stimuli that they put on that reactive show is not a dog who is ready to learn anything at that moment. That would be like trying to teach algebra to someone afraid of heights from the top of the empire state buidling.

I'm very pleased to say that after about 6 weeks of daily training, Conrad is coming along just amazingly. We had really a perfect storm of what normally would have set him off today--a large fluffly dog (a golden retriever) appearing pretty much out of nowhere from behind a bush and then going ballistic from behind a fence just a couple feet from where we were walking. But now that we've been working on this, instead of freaking out, Conrad startled initially (his nerves will never be made of steel and frankly the golden came so out of nowhere that I kind of jumped too), then looked to me as I gave him his cue to give me attention and we trotted right on past. When we got by, I rewarded him with praise and a tiny little morsel (we're still in training, he still needs occasional food rewards) and asked for his attention again (his "before" behavior in these situations was to turn around and nearly walk backwards so he could continue to keep his eye on whatever it was that had scared him) and off we went, with no looking back, no negative reaction, no lunging, pulling, snarling, growling of any kind. That is the power of positive dog training right there.

 

[Whisper]

*applause* houndlove

 

[houndlove]

It's Conrad that deserves the round. He had a rough start to his life and he's just been working for me like a champ on his issues. We put them on the back burner for a while because in every other way he's just the perfect dog (um, except for the raging SA, but that's managed quite well), but I decided this year it's time. It's not fair to him to not help him with his fears. I just wish I had done it sooner. Something seems to really have clicked with him in about the last week or so. I just couldn't be happier.