An aside to the "I want a smart dog" thread

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#1
Apolgies if this is in the wrong section.

I feel the need to add this thread, as "I want a smart dog" thread has cropped up at a time where I am at the very end of my leash with our dog. A little background: Bernie is a beagle/husky cross, 2.5 years old, and consistantly makes me feel like I am a reject from "I Am Not Smarter Than...". Bernie is smart, smarter than any dog I've ever met, yet if someone was to ask for him, I'd hand them his leash and walk away with no sense of regret.

Bernie was housebroken within minutes of being here, at 7 weeks, mastered every single training task asked of him, and was a delight to my dog fearing husband. The two have the bond that I cry for weekly if not daily. I am the primary caretaker here, as I don't work, hubby does. It's me that walks, trains, hikes, cleans up after, feeds, chases down, worries, tends, and cries over the bond that isn't.

There is no where safe within town boundaries where Bernie can be allowed off leash, or he'll run/chase/bolt. He always returns at his own time/pace/idea. He'll run down bikes/cars/skateboards/snow mobiles/fourwheelers in a great game of chase, tail wagging smile on his face, and with a speed you would not believe. We live near a 75 acre park with a lake that freezes in the winter. Last winter he managed to get out, and was found 10 kms from home, visiting ice huts. He returned home 7 hrs later, tired but happy til he saw me waiting on the deck for him to return.. yes, I had spent the night walkiing/searching/calling him, only to give up and wait for him at home. I realize he's a hound, he's a husky and he's young.. yes I get it, but there is a foundation of respect missing from our relationship. He can/does scale a chain link fence to escape in pursuit of a squirrel/skunk/anything that's within his sightline. He must be tied oin the very middle of our deck even though it's got railings, everything has been moved from the edge that he can use as a trampoline to escape, and yet still he's leashed 24/7 when outside at home even though we paid $2500 to fence 1/2 the property for the dog. The fence keeps him in, just doesn't stop him from being skunked 4 days out of 7, nor stop him from searching the fenceline for a way to escape (we had a pile of interlocking 4 ft inside the fence line that he used as a vault to get over the 6 ft fence) I admire his stalwart ability to confound me, but I truly have reached the end of my tether.

At no point in time do I enjoy trying to outthink this dog. I never relax. He's walked/hiked/wrestled/playdated at least 4 hrs every day of his life. He's not lacking for exercise. My complaint isn't that he's active, it's the fact that he has NO recall or respect for me. Hubby on the other hand has the bond with him that I pray for. I have noted that I am the main disciplinarian, but other than ONE smack on the butt when he door bolted and was gone for 9 hrs, coming home stinking of skunk, and having been caught at a local store 3 miles from home by a neighbour, I've never raised a hand, never scared him as much as he's scared me, and always tried to follow the best of your (Chaz) training tips. If it was just a matter of "he's the type of dog that can't be let off leash".. I'd be fine. It's not. I am perpetually being given the finger, subverted, and left in the dust.

I have worked very hard on basics, the sits, the stays, the come's (on leash and in the house) are impeccable, but overwritten on a constant basis by the fact that when he's in a group of dogs/people, I am CONSTANTLY on guard, as he'll lift a leg and pee on people legs, he'll have issues with some male dogs (border collies and chocolate labs.. he was thrashed at 5 months by an aggressive/toy protective border collie, and chocolate labs tend to hump him.. endlessly LOL).

Once inside the gates of our new local dog park, he spends the entire time running/walking/pacing the fenceline to find a way out. The park is 3 acres, partly treed, and the playhome of several types of dogs that he normally loves to play with in the right circumstances. Rarely any issues amongst the other dogs, and any issues are dealt with promptly and appropriatelyby their owners, but Bernie has this ovewhelming need to break up spats event though they weren't his to start with. I know, many dogs are not good "dog park candidates", but there are times where I need to be able to.. relax, and know I am not going to have to hike 10-12 miles to find a dog that couldn't care less if I exist.

I have basically dropped the cookies/treats/rewards from my repetoire as it only boiled down to him watching my hands for movement towards pockets etc to see if I would reward him for doing what was asked.. no treat.. screw you dolly, I'm busy. Recent issues include growling at me when I get him off the couch/bed when it's bedtime for us. He's no longer allowed on any item of furniture, no longer allowed his meaty bones as he growls and slinks under tables when I ask him to take it outside/give it to me/whatever. He's a thinking dog, but I'm done thinking I'll ever have a bond with this dog that I wanted so very badly. Once again it'll end in tears by the time the day is done.

I realise this is more of a rant, and there is nothing to be done for me or my lack of bond with this smart dog. I am also not explaining things right as to how I feel. I don't mind exercising,playing with, teaching, or caring for this dog. I mind him not caring about me in return. Anyone want a dog? Oh wait.. I can't.. he's my husbands life partner LOL! Apolgies for the novel.. and no I don't feel better for the rant LOL!
 
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#2
Wish I had something inspired to tell you.

Think maybe this is Bernie's theme song? YouTube - Don't fence me in

You and Bernie need to find something that the two of you do that calms you both, something that he and your husband don't do; it might be something as simple as sitting on the couch together watching TV sharing a bowl of popcorn. You may never have the same kind of tight bond with Bernie that he and your husband share, but there might be a different one that's close :)

Or maybe you need a dog -- and Bernie needs a playmate there at home. Beagles and Huskies are both breeds that are geared to being with other dogs.
 

CaliTerp07

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#3
First off...BREATHE!

It sounds like your major problem is him running away.

That can only be solved in baby steps. You say that he comes perfectly in the house, right? Will he come if he's on the front porch? Will he come in a tennis court (usually a safe place to let dogs off leash, if the fence is good). Will he come to your husband outside? If one of you holds him and the other one stands 5 feet away with a stinky smelly yummy treat, will he come?

Expecting to go from in the house to the dog park is way too much. It has taken YEARS and a lot of maturing for Lucy to learn that one, and our park is nowhere near 3 acres. (It's the size of a football field, maybe). You need to build up to it suuuuuuuper slowly. We played a lot of "hide and seek" with Lucy. One of us would hide somewhere in our apartment, and call to her. She'd come try to find us, and then would get a treat and a belly rub party.

You keep saying your dog couldn't care less if you exist. That's not true. He just cares more that there are squirrels, smells, dogs, etc out in the world. They're more exciting than a back scratch. Frankly, they'd be more exciting for nearly all dogs.

There's a woman in one of my classes who just got a dog, and she was tearing her hair out last week. "We've had him for nearly 2 months, and he still loses his mind when he sees a squirrel on a walk!" Well....yeah. Until you teach him that ignoring the squirrel is going to guarantee him a super awesome thing, he's going to try to chase the squirrel.

You mention lacking respect. What is respect to a dog? That's a human emotion. "I respect you because you have worked hard for something." "I respect you because you're older than me." "I respect you because you did something I couldn't do." etc, etc. Dogs don't have a moral conscience, so how can they have respect for someone? Dogs obey us because it benefits them in some way. They sit when they're told because at one point they got treats for it (or were hit for not doing it). They jump into our laps when we ask because it means they'll get belly rubs. They come when they're called because it means they're going on a car ride, getting a treat, or whatever. Eventually it becomes conditioned. If you call your dog, only to leash him up and take him home, he's never going to want to come.
 

milos_mommy

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#4
It sounds as though you feel like he's running away for a lack of respect or love for you.

He's not.

Dogs are animals. They are loyal and able to bond incredibly deeply with their people, but they still have instincts, some breeds moreso than others. And Beagles and Huskies are two of the breeds best known for having an instinct to escape and not look back.

It is always unfortunate when someone in a family gets a dog, and the dog ends up bonding closer with another member of the family...but it happens....I think people and dogs can have chemistry the way two people do.

Renee's suggestion of another dog might be a good idea, but it's never a good idea to get another dog to "fix" issues with the first dog. Another dog isn't going to stop Bernie from trying to escape, but if he wasn't what you were looking for and you're managing to handle him and provide him regardless, it might be nice for you to have the kind of trainable, less instinctive dog you want. Bernie might even be closer to your husband because he realizes you resent he isn't what you expect and you're disappointed when he runs, etc.
 
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#5
Thanks to each of you for your kind, indepth, non berating responses!

I probably threw the word respect into the mix, when I should have used the word obey. I want him to obey, he doesn't need to like me as much as my husband..he needs to obey me because he must for his own safety and my peace of sanity.. not even peace of mind!

I have considered getting a second dog.. for me.. for my love of dogs, but I won't until Bernie and I are on better footings. I'd not want things to get more complicated and stressful. Where's a fila when I want it? lol.. NO, I'm not going downt that road .. yet LOL

Caliterp.. Hide and seek.. well.. out of sight out of mind.. even with a 50 foot long lead, the first chance of escape is.. taken! At the age of 8 weeks, we drove Bernie to our local park, to an area he'd never been to and he was able to track his way on leash, right back here to the house.. he's smart LOL. I do realize nothing I ever do will be as exciting as the game of chase.. I don't want to be to tell you the truth.. but I do want a recall that works without needing to haul 1/2 a rotting cow or 25 kgs of chicken strips with me! I do appreciate any/all help.. I am not being sarcastic.. just.. bitter at the moment.. please don't take it personally! We have and do do the tennis court games with his cuz, and playing "chase Bernie" etc.. but once outside.. he had little if no interest in anything that isn't alive and moving. I'd love to get him involved in tracking/searching/working dog programs.. guess I'm going to have to learn to drive.

I think part of my frustration stems from the fact that this is probably a problem I've created. I live next door to a dog that has no manners, no rules, and no boundaries. I may just have been a little too tough on Bernie regarding obedience, and he's now taking his freedom where he can.. or.. he's just a dog.. and he's.. doing what dogs do!

LMAO Renee.. you might just be right.. great theme song.. thanks.. I think LOL. The thing with the couch/popcorn/doing something hubby and he don't is.. I feel like I am bribing him to be near me.. He will bring his cuz's/squeeky balls in the house repeatedly to play with me.. in thie house only.. hubby doesn't throw it far/often/fun enough for Bernie's liking lol.. we do play tag etc.. in the house.. but out of it.. it's chase alright.. just me chasing Bernie chasing.. STUFF lol

Milos Mommy.. you're right too.. but I have to say that Bernie is trainable.. just not the "you light up my life woman.. where have you been" kind of dog that I need/want. A focus on me and my voice isn't asking too much is it? There are things that Bernie does... on leash that puts most of his friends to shame.. and there isn't a child within the province that Bernie hasn't gently convinced to love him, squish him, cuddle him.. and adore him! I couldn't ask for a better dog in that regard.

Ah well.. off for our marathon teaching/walking session of the afternoon.. we're learning together I guess.. to enjoy each other whilst tied together LOL.
 

milos_mommy

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#6
Does he listen to your husband's recall? It'll be hard to get a husky X beagle to have a 100% reliable recall, however, you should be able to get him to come when called with minimal distractions at the least....

How about in the house? Does he obey commands such as "sit" "down" etc, while in the home?
 

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#7
Since you've worked with him alot it seems, maybe it's time to find a trainer?

Not that you can't train him, but just to have someone in person, face to face to talk to when these problems shows themselves so you aren't left scratching your head for answers or wondering a load of questions by yourself. (I've been there, I totally understand).

A good trainer should also be able to step back, no emotion, and look at the two of you and give you good advice on what would be best training wise.
 

Saeleofu

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#8
I agree that it may be time for a trainer. Sure, I'm training my own service dog, and I've already trained one dog though advanced rally, but if I have a question I don't hesitate to ask my dad. Difference is I have a few years experience, my dad has a few decades of experience. I have on title, my dad has 30+

but other than ONE smack on the butt when he door bolted and was gone for 9 hrs, coming home stinking of skunk, and having been caught at a local store 3 miles from home by a neighbour,
Not that this caused the problem, but punishing a dog when they return home only reinforces that they must stay away. Why would they come home if they're going to be punished? Honestly the best reaction is NO reaction.
 

Maura

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#9
I don't think he disrespects you either. He acts like a husky. He acts like a beagle. He was removed from his litter too soon. There, you have it. There is a reason you rarely see either of these breeds in advanced obedience.

I think you should keep him off the furniture. If this is proving to be difficult, then turn the cushions up or do something else to keep him off. If necessary crate him (it's fine to bribe him into the crate). You have to accept him for who he is. On another note, I think you've shown a great deal of patience with him and have probably done much more with Bernie than most people could have.
 
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#10
Milos Mommy: It isn't so much that he listens to my husbands recall, more that Bernie doesn't like to have hubby out of his sight for long, AND the fact that hubby is much more laid back and relaxed about how far/how long Bernie is out of range.

I guess I've just had more opportunities to have issues with Bernie chasing down the park lawn mowers (OMG the thoughts of this give me nightmares! Unfortunately, when Bernie was a pup and he was allowed more off leash time, he befriended the park guys who encouraged Bernie to chase them down in the golf carts.. so now the game is on if he sees the golf carts or the guys in the park.. nothing is off limits to Bernie for the game of chase!) That, and a friend used to drive by the yard, and call to Bernie as he drove by.. once and only once did Bernie get over the railing to chase the car, but once was enough.. luckily we're in country roads here.. but still!) Oh, and yes I spoke to the park guys more than once about encouraging Bernie to chase the mowers etc.. finally ended up that Bernie isn't allowed off leash there EVER! Or on the deck unleashed.. EVER.

Bernie's recall/sit/stay/down/anything that's asked of him ... are impeccable in the house.. have been from day one for some reason.

Lizmo.. I have to agree with you.. a trainer is going to have to be my next step. I think it'd give me peace of mind more than anything.

Saelofu: The one smack Bernie got was when he was just over a year old, we'd been having a spat at the time of "Ican'thearyouIcan'tseeyouIcan't anythingyouwant ..." Little did I know it was to become a lifetime lifestyle. I am in no way excusing what have done what I did.. but I must say.. it was a thump on the butt as he went through the door after having been gone about 9 hrs-7 of which I had been traipsing across frozen lakes at -25 in the middle of the night searching for a dog, and I was frustrated beyond all reality. He wasn't injured, and I made sure to reward each and every successful "come" since then with a happy voice and yummy treat. I worked both ways with the treats as far as a lure, and having treats nearby that he didn't know about to reward when he did get to me.. but now it's by choice whether he returns or not.. good treat/no treat/so so treat.

Maura: the choice was not mine as to how old he was when he was taken from mom. He's a rescue dog that was brought down at the age of 4 weeks from Moose Factory, after his mother was shot for a bounty. He spent 3 weeks with 17 other pups and 3 adult "moms" before we adopted him. Well we adopted him at 5 weeks, but left him there til he was the only pup left at the rescue, and he had no other friends. Might as well be here, learning/loving/living.

I appreciate your comments on my patience Maura, as anyone you ask will say that I've done nothing but devote every minute spare in the day to making sure Bernie is balanced, walked, cared for, disciplined, amused, and interacted with.

Thanks everyone.. I appreciate everything you've said and done... my leash may be getting a little longer, and not strung quite so tight.

I will say that I refuse to be a flailing, screaming lunatic out in public, trying to get my dogs attention away from butterflies, loons, squirrels, lawnmowers and snow mobiles! I'll save that for home thanks! I'd just like a balanced, no fear, no dread, no hassle love of my dog.
 
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#11
Just as an adjunct to my last post.. no.. we did not/do NOT allow Bernie even as a puppy to chase lawnmowers etc in the park! We would be as far as possible away from anything visible in the middle of soccer fields, playing off leash with a wubba or ball (both of which won't be looked at now outside), Bernie was about 6 months at the time, and I was spending 6 hrs a day walking him.. just to tire him out, as well as play time in the park, doggy dates etc, until I asked here, and everyone said I was over stimulating/over doing the exercise aspect, and to make training fun, not a burden on both of us.

Playing in the fields was generally fun, but I needed eyes in the back of my head, and hearing like a hawk in case of said mowers, people with dogs, squirrels,etc, occasionally by senses would fail me, but Bernies never did!

I guess also some of my concern isn't just the roaming, but the no bond. I've basically come to the realization that we will never have the right bond, but I do need basic obedience. I did not take him to obedience classes, as cash was tight at the time, but I did spend time with a local trainer when Bernie was 3-5 months, in the same park, watching him work with his shepherds who by the way made me weep with sadness that I knew I'd never have his touch with my dog. Even he said that Bernie was the toughest egg to crack that he'd seen in a very long time. Bernie isn't toy motivated, separation anxiety motivated, food motivated... just independence motivated LOL..

Ok.. we're off to work on some agility fun.. it's exercise, but he's not particularly "in to it". Lots of good cookies for tunnel work, lots of praise.. lots of outside time! Yes.. it's just in my backyard, but.. better than nothing!
 

GoingNowhere

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#12
Do you bike or hike or know someone who does? Exercise won't exactly fix the issue, but he clearly likes to experience new places outdoors, so why not see if someone is looking for a hiking/biking buddy? He might be a bit less prone to endlessly seek escape routes if he can get some of his wanderlust out of his system in a reasonable way.

I am sure that others will help you on the training end!

Huskies are known for being escape artists with an independent streak, so I feel pretty confident in saying that you aren't alone in your frustration.
 
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#13
Thanks Going :).. I appreciate the input..biking is a prospect I am looking at.. just not explored it all that seriously with Bernie's penchant for rodents on the road! Thanks for the help and the vibes from across the Chaz Family.. for some reason todays outdoor adventures in our regular 25 acre "subdivision to be built here soon" acreage wasn't the normal stress trauma it can be. Maybe like some of you have said... he's picked up on my stress and has been manimplating it.. just a tad LOL

Tonight.. there seems to be hope for tomorrow .. thanks everyone.. and yes.. I am considering trainers.. any ideas on what to look for in a trainer that could help? We thank you for your time!
 

lizzybeth727

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#14
I just want to say that I have a chihuahua - a breed that's certainly much more people-oriented than huskies and beagles - and I had her for 4 years before I trusted her off leash outside in an unfenced area. 4 years of recall training, advanced obedience work, agility (indoors only), and bonding with me at work about four days a week. And even when I did let her off leash, if she got more than about 15 feet away from me, I was calling her back and HEAVILY reinforcing her for coming. So IMO, even though it's really cool to have off-leash obedience with a dog, it's absolutely not necessary, and often striving for that only causes frustration and dissappointment.

Also, I highly suggest you read "When Pigs Fly" by Jane Killion. It's a training book about how to train "difficult" dogs; I think the ideas in it will really help you learn more about how to deal with your dog. Also she uses clicker training, a training method which has been proven to help build the bond between the animal and the trainer.
 

noodlerubyallie

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#16
You need to take him to obedience classes.

You unfortunately have a dog that seems to have gotten the worst of both breeds - but that doesn't mean that your life and his have to remain as they are.

Ruby has never been allowed off-leash intentionally in an open area - ever. I've been training her in Obed for the last two and a half years - we're working on Utility exercises. Because of her predisposition to run combined with her intelligence - even with the advanced Obed training - I can't 100% trust that she would remain with me if she was allowed a choice. I've been incredibly lucky that the three times she's managed to get loose, she's come back when I've called.

I think a combination of training somewhere away from home and teaching specific boundaries at home that both you and your husband follow will be a big help. Ruby has to work for everything - if she wants attention, she has to do something first. Dinner? She has to sit or offer another trick. On the couch? Same thing. If you find the one thing that that really motivates him, trade with him - get him to do something for you before you allow him to do what he wants.

Good luck!
 

Maura

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#17
There are others who have had to take puppies sooner than optimum. It's just that being taken from mom and siblings, regardless of the reason, has an effect on a dog. Loosing his mom so soon, even being left with his sibs is going to have an effect. You have more to deal with besides the breeds both being runners and independent thinkers. One of the problems is that silly puppy "everyone wants to be my friend" mentality that we see in not properly greeting other dogs, and playfully chasing everything. And, some dogs prefer one sex over the other, Bernie may be one of them. Also, in a family situation one person may act more alpha and the dog will in turn listen better to them. Ignoring the dog (and letting you fuss over him) is an alpha kind of thing. It is only frustrating to the person who is doing all the work!
 

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