A Sad reminder to check out your breeder thoroughly

[ACooper]

Yep. I mean, look at those animal cops shows. Most of the people who let their amount of animals get out of hand are PET people. Those dogs aren't show or working dogs... just an accumulation of pets that they either took in or let breed over and over again.

And not only THAT..........most of those people just have ONE pet, and they wouldn't even care for it They let chains grow into their necks, let them starve to the point of death (or very close in many cases) let them go without vet care for injuries, some of them just don't trim or brush out knots/tangles until the animal is bogged down and in serious pain.

It all seems INSANE to those of us who go far and above out of our way to care for our animals to see those who won't lift a finger to provide basic care........and INSANE is the only word that fits in many of those cases

 

[Laurelin]

Agreed. I didn't mean this to be about show breeders or working breeders or pet breeders, just a reminder that even with good credentials in whatever you deem important a breeder can still be totally horrible. Just because someone shows or works their dogs and even titles them doesn't mean they're reputable.

 

[StillandSilent]

10 years old is elderly for a Mastiff. The thought of someone letting an old man lay out there in the cold, shot or starved as the case may be is just terrible.
Not only that, he had given so much to that owner. A championship, litters, 10 years of devotion. And look where it got him.

 

[Romy]

RIP Max, collie bullets, and the other mastiffs. There are no words.

 

[corgipower]

I think this kind of thing isn't really different from the collectors. Just that they're doing it with higher quality dogs, showing, breeding.

 

[Toller_08]

Wow... how sad is that. I don't get some people. That's just disgusting.

 

[JennSLK]

no not dog lovers. they love themselves & desire recognition but obviously cannot achieve it in & of their selves. so they BUY pretty dogs from others and breed more pretty dogs and trot them around a ring for a ribbon and personal recognition. this is another reason why the show community needs to step up & require performance qualifications for a dog to compete. if a GSD had to have a Sch I or a herding title to compete in adult class conformation toward champion it would weed out the unhealthy fads & the most of the idiots like this because they would be unwilling to put in the actual work to train & compete. JMO and worth what you paid for it.

I cant beleive you are actually that ignorant. There are ALOT of abused working dogs out there.

Breeding "pretty" dogs has nothing to do with abuse. They are just more prominate because they are more well known and in the public eye more.

 

[sammgirl]

I really hate hearing stuff like that. You do have to be so careful...

I hope that those dogs are running happily at the bridge.

 

[crazy_paws]

Rip mastiffs and collies.

Stories like this are literally sickening. To be that cruel to an animal requires a disgusting level of depravity.

 

[stardogs]

The original link isn't working. Anyone know what's up with that?

 

[colliewog]

They're hoarders with one extra screw loose ...

 

[Pops2]

not saying show breeders are bad (although this one is) just that it is the least demanding of activities in terms of knowledge and personal effort. a guy can buy a $10,000 competition coonhound but if he doesn't work the dog often it will get rusty & start losing. likewise for PP sport. the majority of genuine abuse or neglect cases in the working world come from nimrods who jump in and find that amount of work involved to get the results they wanted is way beyond what they are willing to provide. it happens all the time w/ deer dogging down south. the nimrods buy a bunch of dogs & let them sit all year then when the season opens & they don't run a deer right into their lap they think it's the dogs' fault. then they starve them thinking that'll help cause the HSUS says so. then because the dogs don't produce they abandon them or just shoot them. guys like this own dogs for about 2 years before they quit the game. happens w/ bear, cat & hog dogs too. i am sure something similar happens w/PP dogs as well. it is very hard to be an abusive/neglectful owner/handler & have success w/ working dogs.
showing ONLY OTH merely requires that the dog be carefully presented. if 6 dogs show up and 6 dogs have horrible conformation the judge still has to put up the least screwed up dog. so a show nimrod doesn't even have to have great dogs, just okay ones and a careful choice of venues and they put ribbons on mediocre dogs. they get their ego fed w/ little real personal investment. bet you a ton of money you won't see a case like this on a show breeder that is also putting hunter, earthdog, tracking, coursing, agility or other working titles on their dogs. more & more you see show breeders of all breeds investing more in their dogs than just the conformation ring. now if it were a requirement how many nimrods would just go away? in the working community their own laziness culls most of them.
i never meant it as a slam against showing as the vast majority of show breeders love their dogs deeply & would never abuse or neglect them.

 

[corgipower]

not saying show breeders are bad (although this one is) just that it is the least demanding of activities in terms of knowledge and personal effort. a guy can buy a $10,000 competition coonhound but if he doesn't work the dog often it will get rusty & start losing. likewise for PP sport. the majority of genuine abuse or neglect cases in the working world come from nimrods who jump in and find that amount of work involved to get the results they wanted is way beyond what they are willing to provide. it happens all the time w/ deer dogging down south. the nimrods buy a bunch of dogs & let them sit all year then when the season opens & they don't run a deer right into their lap they think it's the dogs' fault. then they starve them thinking that'll help cause the HSUS says so. then because the dogs don't produce they abandon them or just shoot them. guys like this own dogs for about 2 years before they quit the game. happens w/ bear, cat & hog dogs too. i am sure something similar happens w/PP dogs as well. it is very hard to be an abusive/neglectful owner/handler & have success w/ working dogs.
showing ONLY OTH merely requires that the dog be carefully presented. if 6 dogs show up and 6 dogs have horrible conformation the judge still has to put up the least screwed up dog. so a show nimrod doesn't even have to have great dogs, just okay ones and a careful choice of venues and they put ribbons on mediocre dogs. they get their ego fed w/ little real personal investment. bet you a ton of money you won't see a case like this on a show breeder that is also putting hunter, earthdog, tracking, coursing, agility or other working titles on their dogs. more & more you see show breeders of all breeds investing more in their dogs than just the conformation ring. now if it were a requirement how many nimrods would just go away? in the working community their own laziness culls most of them.
i never meant it as a slam against showing as the vast majority of show breeders love their dogs deeply & would never abuse or neglect them.

That is wrong in so many ways, I'm not even sure where to start...but I'll try...

First, this was not a case of the dog not trained and not performing as desired and therefore neglected. I very much believe it's a case of hoarding -- someone with good intentions and a mental illness gets in over their head with too many dogs, and rather than admit it and downsize, they keep going on the path their on. They probably find themselves unable to provide physically ~ cleaning and financially ~ buying food, vetting for all their dogs. Their dogs start being dirty and unhealthy and skinny, and now they try to hide it while sinking further into the hole they've found themselves in. They hide it well until something happens to break the whole thing open and by then it's too late. This is absolutely something that can happen with working dogs.

Second, where does the HSUS say that starving the dog will help?

Third, a judge does not have to put up a dog in conformation. It's rare, but I've seen it happen. If all the dogs that show up are a poor example of the breed, the judge does have the right to not award anything. Also, if someone brings several starved mastiffs to a show, someone will notice and hopefully report it. It takes a long time to starve a mastiff to death.

Fourth, it sure as hell sounds like a "slam against showing" when you repeatedly use the term "nimrod". :madgo:

This situation is not about show dogs. It's a heartbreaking case of neglect.

 

[Fran101]

Its such a shame such beautiful dogs, and what a horrible person to do that to them! it sounds to me like a mental illness, after all, it wouldve been EASY to find homes for these dogs.

Finding the "right" breeder is tough. but this is a good reminder that its about MORE than lines and awards, you really have to take a look at the person raising these animals and how they are treated.

 

[JennSLK]

That is wrong in so many ways, I'm not even sure where to start...but I'll try...

First, this was not a case of the dog not trained and not performing as desired and therefore neglected. I very much believe it's a case of hoarding -- someone with good intentions and a mental illness gets in over their head with too many dogs, and rather than admit it and downsize, they keep going on the path their on. They probably find themselves unable to provide physically ~ cleaning and financially ~ buying food, vetting for all their dogs. Their dogs start being dirty and unhealthy and skinny, and now they try to hide it while sinking further into the hole they've found themselves in. They hide it well until something happens to break the whole thing open and by then it's too late. This is absolutely something that can happen with working dogs.

Second, where does the HSUS say that starving the dog will help?

Third, a judge does not have to put up a dog in conformation. It's rare, but I've seen it happen. If all the dogs that show up are a poor example of the breed, the judge does have the right to not award anything. Also, if someone brings several starved mastiffs to a show, someone will notice and hopefully report it. It takes a long time to starve a mastiff to death.

Fourth, it sure as hell sounds like a "slam against showing" when you repeatedly use the term "nimrod". :madgo:

This situation is not about show dogs. It's a heartbreaking case of neglect.

:hail:

Pops it is so clear you know nothing about the show world. Do you have any idea how much time and effort it takes to have a good show dog? ALOT

As for knowledge, well with a PP dog you dont just put 2 together and know your going to have nice working puppies. Same works for shows. You have to know a whole heck of alot of consistantly produce quality show dogs

 

[Laurelin]

That is wrong in so many ways, I'm not even sure where to start...but I'll try...

First, this was not a case of the dog not trained and not performing as desired and therefore neglected. I very much believe it's a case of hoarding -- someone with good intentions and a mental illness gets in over their head with too many dogs, and rather than admit it and downsize, they keep going on the path their on. They probably find themselves unable to provide physically ~ cleaning and financially ~ buying food, vetting for all their dogs. Their dogs start being dirty and unhealthy and skinny, and now they try to hide it while sinking further into the hole they've found themselves in. They hide it well until something happens to break the whole thing open and by then it's too late. This is absolutely something that can happen with working dogs.

Second, where does the HSUS say that starving the dog will help?

Third, a judge does not have to put up a dog in conformation. It's rare, but I've seen it happen. If all the dogs that show up are a poor example of the breed, the judge does have the right to not award anything. Also, if someone brings several starved mastiffs to a show, someone will notice and hopefully report it. It takes a long time to starve a mastiff to death.

Fourth, it sure as hell sounds like a "slam against showing" when you repeatedly use the term "nimrod". :madgo:

This situation is not about show dogs. It's a heartbreaking case of neglect.

I agree. It's obvious this breeder didn't simply shove a neglected looking dog in the ring. She had professional handlers on many dogs which agree with or not is a HUGE monetary investment. She had the one in a veteran's show at 10 years looking well. You can't just walk into a ring with an obviously neglected dog and win. You said this: "it is very hard to be an abusive/neglectful owner/handler & have success w/ working dogs." It is also true that it is very hard to be an abusive/neglectful owner/handler & have success w/ show dogs.

I agree it is likely the same thing you see with hoarders. If the numbers add up she had nearly 30 mastiffs and more small breed dogs, which is a lot for one sane person to handle let alone someone that has some obvious issues.

 

[Pops2]

i've never seen this in guys that have been hunting or working stock w/ dogs for 5 or 10or 30 years. but i have seen it in nimrods that jump into hunting w/ dogs only to quit after a year or two shows them how hard it really is. we had just such an incident rescently here that ended w/ about a dozen hounds seized. and not coincidentally the humane society rep on the news claimed that hunters starve the dogs to make them hunt better (nevermind the deer season closed 2 months ago).
no she did not show up w/ neglected dogs nor even mediocre ones, she showed up at shows w/ fat happy well bred dogs. but there were also "rumors" going back for many years so this isn't an isolated incident from a rescent manifestation of mental illness. this was an ongoing problem that was ignored because she produced dogs that won in the ring. would a working title requirement have prevented her becoming such a name so that rumors would be ignored? maybe, maybe not who knows. would it run off those who are too lazy or fearful to put in the extra work & training? absolutely.
as for judges not putting up dogs maybe someone should remind them they have the right. in that regard i refer you to the belgian mal at westminster thread.

 

[JennSLK]

Pops you really know nothing about showing. Please stop trying to dicuss things you do not understand. I would not tell you how to train your dogs. I know nothing about hunting.

Oh hunting is oh so hard, as you put it. You know what? So is showing! I have seen alot of people quit because of the effort it takes to be good.

Just because there are bad apples out there doesnt mean they all are. I dont judge you because I KNOW there are hunters who starve thier dogs. Just like there are sled dogs who are horribly mist treated. Does that mean they all are? No. The bad ones just make the news. Its not news worthy that my dogs sleep on my bed.

 

[sammgirl]

I think showing is difficult to learn in terms of someone being new to it. The dog has to hold itself in a certain way for a long period of time. At least the dogs I've been around don't just stand in the ring, they hold themselves how they've been trained to.

But, if you've never been in that type of situation you would have no idea how "easy" it is. Body language of both handler and dog is vital.

I think that working a dog is important, but around here we have tons of hounds in shelters that were found just wondering around because they didn't work out on the hunt.

I think that's animal abuse. We had a story where a big dump of dead hounds in the woods that had been found shot in the head. I think that qualifies as cruelty.

I would also like to say that the original intent of this thread has been lost in a working dog vs showing dog debate that should be taken to another thread. No matter WHICH breeder or what kind of breeder you pick, you should always be careful.
I can tell you that if Harper doesn't pass her herding instinct test, she won't be shot and thrown on a hay bale LOL We'll probably try tracking or we'll find something else. (I think she'll pass with flying colors JMHO).

I'm not saying that showing a dog is the ultimate way to test breed worthiness, but it's nothing to turn one's nose up for. AND cruelty is cruelty, regardless of HOW someone works their dogs, or even if they do.

 

[ACooper]

I have to say that my dad and uncle would have begged to differ with Pops, LOL. To them, hunting their beagles was EASY and FUN! Once the initial starting dogs were trained, any new pups added to the group learned from the more experienced dogs..........at least that's how they described it. So perhaps some work in the beginning, but a breeze after established.

Put them in a show ring and they wouldn't have a clue and neither would their dogs. It's a DIFFERENT type of work, and like hunters, it starts when they are babies. It isn't just about being able to trot around and look good. The judges put their hands all over those dogs for a reason as well. They have to be 'structurally sound' and put together right, including toned muscles etc.

Saying one is easy and without merit would be like comparing figure skating to hockey. Yes, figure skaters must look good, skate around the rink, look pretty, be well 'groomed' and 'perform' but they work extremely hard to be able to do so. Hockey players work equally hard, just in a different way