A (probably) Puppymill Doberman...some help please? :)

[PeggyPup]

Hi folks! I've returned from a VERY long hiatus. I haven't been active since...I guess September. Life got very busy and I don't really have time to be leisurely with the internet nowadays...but something important has come up.


My dear friend and I had some unopened dog food bags that we figured we would take over to a nearby shelter. While we were there they had out this wonderful 5 month old doberman puppy. I don't know what it was about him, but we fell absolutely head over heals in love. He's a very special boy. (And it doesn't help that dobermans are one of my favorite breeds. ) BUT my friend had never given much thought to dobermans and SHE adored him as well.

Anyway, we got to talking to the fine people working there and they told us that he had been at a Pet store for quite a long time and was never sold, so was sent to the rescue. Well just from hearing pet store i was on alert.

He comes from Missouri, and was brought to Debby's Pet Land a couple months ago. I am familiar with Debby's Pet Land, it's a popular pet store chain here in New England. And I just always assumed it sold puppy mill puppies. I never really got involved with the idea of purchasing a pup from there for this reason, but if someone knows otherwise about this chain feel free to let me know.

I've already decided he couldn't come home with me. Money is tight right now, we already have two dogs, we wouldn't be able to make this dobey as happy as he deserves to be.

My friend on the other hand, lives with her mother who does not work. They are very well-to-do and already have another dog, a poodle. Her mother spends ALL her time pampering this poodle, and has plenty of experience with dogs. They are currently considering adopting this doberman, fully aware of the health risks.

Here's my big question: I got the paperwork the shelter had from Debby's Pet Land to check on his background. I tried to look up the breeder, anything about a doberman kennel in Missouri, I looked on the doberman registry for his parents' names (the sire is Big Paws Mac Attack and the Dame is Satin Sadie if anyone knows of these dogs). I couldn't find ANY information about this dog's background. I've never dealt with a potentially puppy mill dog so I'm not sure they could be this corrupt, but....could they have falsified the paperwork? Is it possible that some or all of this information is inaccurate?

Also, how do you guys feel about the whole situation? There really is something wonderful about this guy or we wouldn't be putting so much effort into a dog we hadn't even planned on adopting. We're obviously not supporting any dastardly mills or companies since he's already been put in a rescue. And right now he seems very healthy, alert and strong.

Sorry for the long rant, but any help would be appreciated! Thank you!

EDIT: And yes, I'm aware that the Doberman Club of America will not recognize a puppy mill breeder as shown by their code of ethics. I was just demonstrating that I've tried everywhere.

 

[lizzybeth727]

He comes from Missouri, and was brought to Debby's Pet Land a couple months ago. I am familiar with Debby's Pet Land, it's a popular pet store chain here in New England. And I just always assumed it sold puppy mill puppies. I never really got involved with the idea of purchasing a pup from there for this reason, but if someone knows otherwise about this chain feel free to let me know.

I can't really answer your question, but I did want to address this statement. If a dog is in a pet store, it is a fact that that dog did not come from a reputable breeder. Whether puppy mill or BYB it doesn't really matter; the point is that any decent breeder will want to know who their puppies go to, and make sure that the home is suitable. It is common knowledge that petstores usually get their sales from impulse buyers - people come in and see the cute little furballs and hand over their credit cards - and someone who's actually researched the breed and made sure that it is the right match for them, has probably also researched how to find the right breeder.

Hmm, that came out pretty rambly, guess it is getting late. HOpe it made sense.

Good luck with the puppy! It's definately riskier getting a puppy from a shelter/rescue, since you don't know his background, but it is also extremely rewarding. Sounds like your friend will be able to give him a good home.

 

[PeggyPup]

I can't really answer your question, but I did want to address this statement. If a dog is in a pet store, it is a fact that that dog did not come from a reputable breeder. Whether puppy mill or BYB it doesn't really matter; the point is that any decent breeder will want to know who their puppies go to, and make sure that the home is suitable. It is common knowledge that petstores usually get their sales from impulse buyers - people come in and see the cute little furballs and hand over their credit cards - and someone who's actually researched the breed and made sure that it is the right match for them, has probably also researched how to find the right breeder.

Hmm, that came out pretty rambly, guess it is getting late. HOpe it made sense.

Good luck with the puppy! It's definately riskier getting a puppy from a shelter/rescue, since you don't know his background, but it is also extremely rewarding. Sounds like your friend will be able to give him a good home.

I assumed as much, but I didn't want to automatically jump to conclusions when I hadn't personally looked directly into the chain myself. Thanks for confirming though. This IS somewhat foreign ground to me considering I've never considered risking it with a puppy mill pup, supporting a puppy mill pup, or trusting any pet store to carry a non-mill dog. So it's good to get second opinions!

 

[Gena]

If the dog was in a pet store and came from Missouri, you are probably dead on with the guess of puppy mill. The dog *could have every genetic defect imaginable or it could be reasonably healthy. I'm assuming the shelter allows a 72 hour return for problems a vet sees initially. Even from a really awesome breeder, there is still the chance (though much smaller) that the dog could end up with a heart problem or hip dysplasia or or or. The only thing you are really giving up totally is breeder support for life. The dog probably won't be as close to standard, might have health issues ranging from mild to heartbreaking. On the plus side, living for months in a pet store, he's probably met a TON of really different people so that might be a head start in the socialization department LOL!

It almost sounds like I support buying from petstores in the above...of course I don't. I just don't think the dogs themselves need to be written off as deformed psychotics automatically. (The millers...they might deserve that title!)

 

[Lolas Dad]

If you go to PetShopPuppies.org they can do a free report on the doberman. I have no doubt that the puppy originated from a puppy mill and yes the paperwork can be forged.

 

[ACooper]

BUT my friend had never given much thought to dobermans

Seriously, if your friend has never given the breed much thought or research, then she probably SHOULD NOT adopt him until she does. Now, understand that statement wasn't meant in a snotty way whatsoever, it's just that dobermans have their 'issues' (personality, health, drives, etc) and should definitely be considered from every angle before jumping in.

This poodle your friend has, is it male or female? Dobermans, especially MALE dobermans often develop same sex aggression issues. It doesn't matter if they are neutered or not, and they might be FINE with other dogs at first, and then it starts. Orson (my male dobe) used to be just fine with any and every dog we met...........the closer he got to age 2, the more he started to change his mind. Is she equipped to handle this? Keep them separated? Or will one of them have to go? Something else your friend should consider, especially if their poodle is male.

Another thing, is the poodle a standard poodle or a smaller breed? I ask because if it's a smaller breed, your friend's mother may not appreciate the way a dobe puppy AND dobe adult like to play. They can get very rough, use their feet much like a boxer to slap a smaller dog around, and of course biting in play.........it can cause injury without meaning to. Now, if it's a standard poodle, and if they do become best buds, it should make a pretty good playmate for him. I know another lady who has 2 dobes and a standard poodle and they all love each other and play well together

You said you are fully aware of his 'potential' health problems. Like how affected by heart conditions, Von Willebrand's disease, thyroid, cancers, general health issues they are? They are riddled with health issues and this is the breed in general, not just milled dogs or BYB. With this breed, it's most definitely a risk you take either way you go.........but of course a planned out litter with health tested parents is a much safer bet. (something you know already, but just stating for searchers or lurkers )

You can see Orson in my signature. He is not from a mill, but he was from a BYB. I did have some experience with the breed before as we owned one growing up. I didn't plan to get him, and didn't buy him, but I was put in a situation where I thought rescuing him would be his only chance to live. He was on death's door when he came to me, so considering his 'breeding' and his start in life..........we have BOTH been extremely lucky he's been healthy, he'll be 4 come April.

Your friend must also have the ability to "be in charge" if she doesn't, the dobe has no problem assuming the 'leader' position in the house. That doesn't mean she must use Cesar Milan, or bully tactics, I just mean she must be able to be consistent and be in charge or he will, LOL Not everyone is suited to get along with a dobe, they can be demanding, bull headed, and pushy. They are also extremely smart, very loving to their people, and pretty good problem solvers...........take the good with the bad, LOL

You need to pound it home to her that he isn't a breed that is going to lay on the couch relaxing most of the day...........he is DEFINITELY going to need lots of physical and mental activities or he will find his OWN form of activities that I'm sure she and her mother won't appreciate at all, LOL

You also need to make it VERY clear to her how "clingy" they can be. They are not happy being without their people, and they like to be right up in your business at any given moment, LOL

So how do I feel about the situation? If she is going into this with her eyes wide open, knowing the effort he is going to demand from her, knowing the potential for health issues, knowing the potential issues between him and the poodle, knowing that he will not be happy without his people around, then adopting him could be good for both of them.

If she goes into this uninformed, or having concerns about any aspect, he could end up right back in the shelter as an older dog and that is devastating for these guys (for any dog) because they love their people so much.

I am sure there's many many more points I am missing, but it's really early and I'm only on my first cup of coffee, LOL

Keep us updated please!!

WOW, sorry this turned out so long! hahahaha

EDIT: Another important point I wanted to mention........BSL. Breed specific legislation. Dobes are a victim of this too. Make sure she knows her town laws/ordinances and be sure she is aware of her home owners insurance policy, they might have restrictions on Dobermans.........many do.

 

[ACooper]

I attempted to check out his parents you mentioned at the AKC website.

This is what came back for his Sire:

Dog Information

AKC No.: WS14957201
Name: Big Paws Mac Attack
Sex: Male
Breed: Doberman Pinscher
Variety:
Color: Red & Rust

Markings:
Birth Date: 10/25/2005

Medical Screens

There are no medical screens available for this dog.

So IF the paper work is true, and IF that is his sire, he is AKC registered and has no health screenings listed. Which makes him pretty much a certainty to be a BYB or mill dog. (I'm sure you're not surprised by that, LOL) His registration number is listed there, it *might* help you find more on him.

The AKC had variations on the name of his dam Satin Sadie, but none of them looked like potential candidates as his mother because of the birth dates.........the youngest one listed was born in 1990

I don't know if I've given you anything new to work with here, and really, none of that matters if he's in the shelter and your friend is considering adoption. But I figured I'd try a search or two anyway

 

[PeggyPup]

Thank you all SO much for your input. I really appreciate it, a LOT of thought and consideration has been going into this decision to decide if it's the right thing to do.

GENA: I know of Missouri's fine Puppy Mill rep. We're going to remain positive and hope he ends up relatively healthy, yet we're still going to be realistic and keep our eyes peeled for any potential problems. We're going to have an EXTENSIVE vet visit and chat should we end up with this pooch.

LOLA'S DAD: This is an awesome site! I'm filling out a report right now and hope to get some info by today. Thank you so much, I was looking for something like this!

ACOOPER: I really appreciate your lengthy response! I need a lot of feedback like that. I admire your dedication to protect a breed you obviously love.

Please don't take what I said the wrong way. The friend I was with does not know much about Dobermans, this is true. Her mother, however, has grown up with dogs and knows a lot about them. She hasn't owned a doberman before, but knows a good deal about them. And I know a heck of a lot about them. I spend a good deal of time around them and I've researched them up and down because I would love to own one someday. If we were to get this dog, the three of us would all plan to work together to make sure this dog got the proper attention and training it needs. We sat down for about and hour and a half yesterday and combed through ALL the pros and cons of not just a doberman, but a puppy mill dog as well.

I was aware of the male aggression problem, but it's not something to worry about. She has a female standard poodle. And the exercise isn't a problem either. That poodle is so high energy, she takes her out about 4 to 5 hours a day(not all at once ) just to wear her out. The Dobey would have NO issues with exercise, i can guarantee that.

I think my friend's mother will be able to display dominance, and, like I said, this is a joint effort, so I will be there to help with training, and will make sure he knows what is what. She's very good at working with dogs, I have no doubts she'll handle him well. I had a VERY stubborn Chow mix who was as alpha as they come, so I know what I may have to face.

We've also looked at BSL and her insurance and that won't be a problem.

And the health is where we are still hesitant. I explained to her all the most common problems seen in the breed, and it is understood by all that those chances are highly increased considering he is puppy mill. We've even discussed every step we would have to take in the event that he did get any of these problems. I checked his hips and they currently feel fine, but of course I can't confirm anything. She definitely has the money to deal with medical problems, and the time. It really has just come down to if she thinks she'd be able to handle the heartbreak if something did happen.

I do appreciate all your advice. To put you at ease, let me put it this way: If this were a healthy doberman from a reputable breeder, I believe she would be the perfect match for him as she knows all about training and caring for a large dog, and she spends all her time with the dog she already has so clingyness wouldn't be a problem. His health, while we are fully informed, is what is putting us on the fence. I'll definitely keep you updated, I'm going to see him today and I'll let you know of any developments!



OH and thank you for looking up Big Paws for me! We really do want to be able to look into the background a bit, even though we pretty much know what we're getting into. You were so helpful, thanks so much!

 

[Doberluv]

Acooper gave you a good run down on Dobermans. I have something to add after reading your last post. Dobermans need training, consistency and copious amounts of socialization. I hope that by dominance and "alpha," you don't mean heavy handedness. They are extremely sensative and you can ruin a Dobe with harshness. People often confuse firmness, dominance, "alpha" with good training and consistency. While they are persistent and pushy, getting in a power struggle will NEVER work. They are also very receptive to training when you find their motivator. Forceful, compulsive or harsh methods are not necessary and can be too much for this sensitive breed.

I do not buy the bit about dogs taking over your house hold if you don't "show 'em who's boss." They need to be reinforced for wanted behavior and the emphasis put on positive reinforcement. I can recommend some great books, if you want them.

My Doberman was as drivey as they come and he was pretty advanced in his training....very good manners and wonderful with people. While not overly outgoing (as they should not be) he was confident and never aggressive when unwarrented. I used lots of clicker training/positive reinforcement type methods.

I also recommend that you or whomever gets this pup to do some research on more recent studies and findings by some of the top experts in the field as far as the dominance panacea and most effective training methods and how to make the best relationship with this pup. Even though she knows a lot about dogs, it may be that what she knows is old school. There are a lot of people who have had dogs for years and years, but they're still hanging onto the old dominance, show 'em who's boss methods. These are based on faulty studies. So, some recent information by behaviorists would be beneficial, IMO.

Culture Clash, by Jean Donaldson is a fantastic book....full of good advice and you'll get a real picture of how dogs think and learn.

The Power of Positive Training, by Pat Miller is another good one.

The Other End of the Leash, by Patricia McConnell....another great book.

There are loads of others, but I'd recommend Culture Clash first and foremost.

Good luck. I hope it all works out!

 

[ACooper]

You're welcome Peggy.
Your second post explained a lot more about how much thought and research you guys are doing before bringing this baby home Glad to see she didn't see him, Squeeee, and bring him home not knowing what she was getting into, LOL

Acooper gave you a good run down on Dobermans. I have something to add after reading your last post. Dobermans need training, consistency and copious amounts of socialization. I hope that by dominance and "alpha," you don't mean heavy handedness. They are extremely sensative and you can ruin a Dobe with harshness. People often confuse firmness, dominance, "alpha" with good training and consistency. While they are persistent and pushy, getting in a power struggle will NEVER work. They are also very receptive to training when you find their motivator. Forceful, compulsive or harsh methods are not necessary and can be too much for this sensitive breed.

I do not buy the bit about dogs taking over your house hold if you don't "show 'em who's boss." They need to be reinforced for wanted behavior and the emphasis put on positive reinforcement. I can recommend some great books, if you want them.

........

I agree, and that was what I meant by saying "be in charge" clear rules, expectations, and consistency...........I definitely didn't mean "show 'em who's boss" LOL Not bully tactics or Cesar Milan craziness!

 

[noodlerubyallie]

I agree with everything that's already been said.

Also, with puppymill/BYB Dobermans, you do run a higher chance of behavioral issues - inappropriate aggression, resource guarding, even being overly shy and fearful. He may be fine as a puppy, but as he gets older, his temperament can change.

If they are able/willing to work with anything that comes up, then go for it But I guarantee they'll never live without one again!

 

[PeggyPup]

DOBERLUV: I know exactly where you're coming from. But I of course was not implying any harsh training methods, just stating that I fully understand that we need to show that we're in charge, and not him. I feel like my friend and her mother understand this, but now that you've mentioned it I AM going to talk to her about it and make sure we're on the same page as far as training methods. Thanks!


And just for a quick update, we went to visit him again. He was feeling pretty rowdy today! He's teething like crazy so he was looking to chew whatever he could...shoelaces, pants, purses...our hands! He's a strong fella too. One of his teeth fell out while we were there. Still, he was very sweet and once he stopped jumping up and down and chewing up our shoes, he plopped down and let us rub his belly for awhile while he licked my hand. He would make your heart melt, I swear it.

He was only interested in us as long as one of the shelter employees were there. Whenever they left the room, he completely lost interest in us and would go sit by the door waiting for them to come back. So I guess he's formed his bond with them, which is a bit sad that he'll have to be torn away. Still, I took it as a good sign that he was acting as dobeys should. He let us pet him and didn't mind us at all, he just didn't care much about us and wanted his person to come back.

He apparently did not have a heart murmur or any other concerning things at birth. There was a day or two where he had some diarrhea. I checked his hips, spine, joints, hearing, sight, inside his ears...everything seems fine, and they said the vet who came by felt very confident about his health. He's black and tan, and his paws are HUGE. He's going to be a big boy. He's uncropped but his tail is docked. He had some dander but his coat didn't feel too dry. The family is feeling more confident about his health, and are now deciding if they're ready to take on another big dog, and want to bring the poodle to meet the dobey to see how things go.

Next time I head over there I'm going to try and remember my camera so I can get you guys some good shots!

 

[ihartgonzo]

Dobies can really touch your heart... I had never really worked with them until my current job, and I absolutely love all of the Dobes that come in. Even the unstable ones.

I think much of the decision depends on your friend and her Mom's commitment to raising this dog as best as he can possibly be raised. He could turn out to be a nice, well-mannered dog with HEAVY training, socializing, and daily constant work. They'd better have puppy socializing and obedience classes lined up for him from day one. It sounds like they spend a lot of time and energy on their Poodle, and I'm sure the puppy would be very lucky to land in such a caring home. Is he red or black? Do you have any name ideas?

 

[ACooper]

DOBERLUV: I know exactly where you're coming from. But I of course was not implying any harsh training methods, just stating that I fully understand that we need to show that we're in charge, and not him. I feel like my friend and her mother understand this, but now that you've mentioned it I AM going to talk to her about it and make sure we're on the same page as far as training methods. Thanks!


And just for a quick update, we went to visit him again. He was feeling pretty rowdy today! He's teething like crazy so he was looking to chew whatever he could...shoelaces, pants, purses...our hands! He's a strong fella too. One of his teeth fell out while we were there. Still, he was very sweet and once he stopped jumping up and down and chewing up our shoes, he plopped down and let us rub his belly for awhile while he licked my hand. He would make your heart melt, I swear it.

He was only interested in us as long as one of the shelter employees were there. Whenever they left the room, he completely lost interest in us and would go sit by the door waiting for them to come back. So I guess he's formed his bond with them, which is a bit sad that he'll have to be torn away. Still, I took it as a good sign that he was acting as dobeys should. He let us pet him and didn't mind us at all, he just didn't care much about us and wanted his person to come back.

He apparently did not have a heart murmur or any other concerning things at birth. There was a day or two where he had some diarrhea. I checked his hips, spine, joints, hearing, sight, inside his ears...everything seems fine, and they said the vet who came by felt very confident about his health. He's black and tan, and his paws are HUGE. He's going to be a big boy. He's uncropped but his tail is docked. He had some dander but his coat didn't feel too dry. The family is feeling more confident about his health, and are now deciding if they're ready to take on another big dog, and want to bring the poodle to meet the dobey to see how things go.

Next time I head over there I'm going to try and remember my camera so I can get you guys some good shots!

LOL, yep, loving and playing with everyone but wanting "his" person present definitely sounds familiar Orson was the same at that age.........he'd play with any and every one as long as he could see me, if I left the room he'd stop playing no matter how much fun he was having and be glued to me..........even if that meant waiting at the bathroom door I don't know if he was already "protecting" me (in his little puppy mind) or if he just didn't want to miss out on something I might do, LOL There's a reason they are called VELCRO! hahaha And honestly, I don't know if they are ALL that way, but both the boys I've had in my life WERE that way..........could be a guy thing, LOL

Since he has spent most or all of his young life at a petstore and shelter, and is already nearly a "teen" you are probably going to have your work cut out for you (or your friend) adjusting him to life in a home. I mean as in what is appropriate to play with, chew on, etc. I'd say up until now, whatever was in his kennel/cage belonged to HIM so he will probably feel the same way in a house, LOL

So how did the meeting go? Pictures? I need a dobe puppy fix! :lol-sign:

 

[PeggyPup]

Went to visit Dobey again, today! AND I brought my camera. Go here to check him out: http://www.chazhound.com/forums/t109299/#post1515490

I think he's getting more comfortable with us. He's not quite so indifferent anymore, even when the employees leave us alone. He stands there for a minute waiting for them but when he sees they're not coming back he allows me to play with him.

He'll DEFINITELY need to work on appropriate ways to play and things to chew. Right now he thinks it's totally fine to jump on you and snag your shirt sleeve to rip apart. NOT okay. It's not aggressive in the least, he thinks it's all in good fun. But he responds well to positive reinforcement and replacement toys, so I think he'll be able to break the habit fairly easily. He was very snuggly with my legs today.

We'll probably know by the end of the week whether or not he's coming home with us.

 

[ACooper]

Awesome! And yes, they are VERY smart and catch on quickly........doesn't mean they always listen even when they KNOW what you want, LOL

*goes to see pictures now*

 

[Doberluv]

I went to look at his pictures. He's super cute!

I didn't mean to imply that you or your friend would be harsh. It's just that on the Internet, it is so hard to know what other peoples' experience is or how familiar they are with training. It never hurts to read more even if you and your friend are pretty familiar with dogs. That's why I recommended those books. (I think I did, without going back to check. lol) Culture Clash is especially, highly recommended.

Here are a couple of articles that might really be of help for you and your friend:

This is really important with all dogs, but Dobermans can be very snappy. I don't mean in an aggressive way, just that they tend to be sharks when they take treats from your hand or are playing. So, this is a good thing to read...especially the part about ending all playtime for the moment and attention when he's chewing on things like clothes, shoe laces, hair, leaping up to grab toys from your hand, etc.

Bite Inhibition Article


I love this article! (you have to sign up to read the whole thing, but it's not a big deal. It's free and she has loads of good articles) I'm on her mailing list and I get neat news letters and stuff sent to me.

How to Train a "Crazy" Dog! | Karen Pryor Clickertraining


This is just good preventative "medicine."

Resource Guarding | Ahimsa Dog Training, Seattle | Dog and Puppy Tips from Seattle |


Training a Steadfast Recall | Karen Pryor Clickertraining

Best of luck.

 

[PeggyPup]

Doberluv: Thank you SO much for the articles. The bite inhibition I'm familiar with, it's always helpful. But I will DEFINITELY need to apply it to this guy. signed up for Karen Pryor's article and am reading it right now. This kind of stuff is just what I need to help this guy, he's SO far behind I need all the help I can get!

I appreciate all the help you all are offering. I hope I actually end up with the fella so I can put this stuff to good use!

 

[Doberluv]

I'm glad that you like the articles. If you need anymore ideas on particular topics, just ask. I think this guy is very lucky to have you and your friend in his life.