A bit of an Issue with Doug the Dane

LauraLeigh

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#1
Now that Doug has settled in, we have an issue....

He resource guards food.... Not his kibble so much, but when he got into the garbage day before yesterday, he snarled at my Son.... Then last night he got into the dirty dishes in my sink ( A dog big enough to reach down into a sink is a new issue for me!) He snarled and snapped at me... I admit, he scared me a bit, I snapped out a Firm NO, and told him to go lay down, and he did....

I have never dealt with Resource guarding, and am a bit intimidated by his sheer size....

I have already talked with Lynn and she is going to help me, but any advice is appreciated!!!
 

milos_mommy

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#2
That's tough.

I think Chewbecca could give you some advice, too, she was dealing with that with one of her dogs and seemed to be doing a fantastic job of it.

My best advice is DO NOT let him get into a position where he feels the need to guard...no high value items, keep him out of the kitchen while food is around (including dirty dishes), etc.

Isn't he very, very thin? I think if you can work with a trainer or read some good material about exercises to help with this, once he is more confident he isn't going to starve to death, the problem should suffice.

You don't have any young children in your home, do you?
 

LauraLeigh

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#3
No kids, and we are being extra careful now to avoid situations where he feels the need to "guard" Our home is open concept so it is not possible to keep him out of the kitchen, though I suppose we could put him away until after dishes are done...
 

Kat09Tails

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#4
any guess on how old Doug is?

I'm a simple woman about this kind of stuff. Dog isn't allowed loose in the house until he learns manners, dog is confined to a crate or out on a leash until he gets it through his fuzzy head that this house is my house and he doesn't get to decide what is his.

When I give him food however it is his and I will not take it away from him or otherwise screw with it. There is no need to play with the insecure puppy demons in his head on the matter.

Also keep in mind pain and painkillers can do strange things to a dog's temperament, he may be a little weird until the pano goes away. Some medications do cause rage episodes.

I want to also remind you this dog should not be allowed on your furniture or to sit on anyone in your house.

Good luck!
 

*blackrose

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#5
With a dog that size, that would be VERY scary. o_O Chloe was a horrible, horrible resource guarder as a pup, but she has matured into all of 45 pounds so she's not very intimidating.

What worked the best for her was trading. No matter what she had, she would always give it up for a treat. Say, for instance, she stole a peice of trash and felt the need to protect it as if it were a million dollars. Before she even had the opportunity to feel defensive about it (ie, I didn't crowd her) I would get out a high value treat (cat food!) and call her to me or get her attention in some way. I then made myself more interesting than whatever item she had and I'd lead her away from it. Once she was in another room or whatnot, I'd remove the item she was guarding.

My goal was to make having people around her high value items a positive thing. I also tried to never take a high value treat that I had given her away from her. I would give her treats when I approached her, but I tried to never actually take away any item that I allowed her to have. This helped as well, I think.

But yes, the best peice of advice I can give you is to try to avoid all situations where he will guard. If you do find yourself in that situation, try to avoid confrontation and just work on getting out of it without getting hurt. The fact that he complied when you corrected him and issued a command makes me think that he isn't going to be a "serious" problem - if I had done that with Chloe she wouldn't have hesitated back up her growl with a serious bite. (That being said, there were two times she tried something and both times I came out on top and I actually think it helped get her head in the right palce - but I could physically handle her and I definitally could not have done the same thing to a dog that weighed as much as me.)

NILIF helps oodles, too. When Chloe became more secure in her status and we developed more of an understanding with one another, her resource guarding diminished. She isn't possessive of much anymore besides bones, and I can take those from her if need be by having her drop it and back away from it (or I just trade).
 

milos_mommy

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#6
I would absolutely confine him during dinner time until dishes are done. Crating all the time might be extreme, but I would not allow him to roam freely while potentially high-value food is around.
 

LauraLeigh

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#7
I really can't confine him all the time (at meals should be OK), the Vet stressed how important moving about is for him, as for the furniture, while I hear what you are saying, he has no issues guarding anything like that, when asked to move he does... So I am not sure why that would be needed? Correct me if I am wrong there.... I also am picking up a bed for him Monday, until then I allow him on the couch we never use as I was told NOT to make him lay on the hard floor because of his joints...

I have thought of trading, and it may well work... I have no idea what he went through to get "food" while on the run and that may play into this... He is incredibly sweet, laid back and mild mannered about EVERYthing else... He is well behaved in every other way...
 

Sweet72947

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#8
I really can't confine him all the time (at meals should be OK), the Vet stressed how important moving about is for him, as for the furniture, while I hear what you are saying, he has no issues guarding anything like that, when asked to move he does... So I am not sure why that would be needed?
Its the thought that resource guarding sometimes generalizes to anything the dog finds of high value to him, whether it be food, or a toy, or a favorite sleeping spot. Although, it sounds like Doug's issue is limited to food, so you should be ok with allowing him on the couch until you get his bed.
 

LauraLeigh

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#9
That makes sense, we are planning on teaching him to lay on the bed only when we get it, as that's better for him anyways...

The couch that he is on now will have to go to make room for the bed, so same spot, different bed... LOL

Never thought I'd have to get rid of furniture to make room for a dog bed!!!
 

Cheza

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Our eldest Dane resource guards her food against the other two dogs. She rumbles if they come to close while eating.

However, we can stick our hands in her food, mouth, whatever, which came in handy when our neighbors threw pork chop bones into our yard one time thinking she might want them... she sure did.

Someone mentioned trading, and I think that's a great way to do it. She got a lot of cookies for the "drop it" on that pork chop.

Teach him "leave it" and "drop it" as soon as you feel you will be able to, and combine that with trading up... it may not get rid of the problem entirely especially if he's been starved, but it should mean that if he goes near say, the trash, you can tell him to leave it, and then give him something REALLY good when he does. Make sure it's something he can eat in one go though, so he doesn't have the time to learn to guard it. We use pieces of cheese.

Having large dogs around is a bit of an adjustment. Make sure the dishes are either in the sink or the dishwasher. Even if he wasn't possessive, dirty dishes / dishwater aren't the best treats even though they think that is the case :D Having a really SOLID drop it / leave it will be a huge help, I swear.

I allow all 3 of my Danes on the furniture, but again, they have a firm understanding that when someone says "off", that they get off right then and there. Since we have hardwood floors, we also have a ton of dog beds all over the place for when they do (saaaad saaad eyes) have to lay on the floor. I think I read he has joint issues but if it's acceptable, you can sew a Dane sized bed out of fleece with a velcro closure for under $20. We then fill them with old toy scraps, old blankets, sheets, t-shirts, things like that.

Also, take a look at all your valuables, and maybe even your TV if it's LCD, and move them up and out of tail range :p
 

Doberluv

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#11
Trading. Yes. But I'd go further than waiting for situations where you need to trade because those situations may be too much for you and him to handle, as you experienced. In other words, create some actual training exercises. In the meantime, physically preventing him from getting into the sink or garbage is a must. (that will get you to do your dishes right away) LOL.

It's important when starting this changing-of-his-mind to start with lower value things and gradually work up to higher value...not only the things he has, but the higher value thing you're trading him for... Make the thing you're trading better than what you need him to give up, but just a little better...proptionate graduations. This is a game.

In addition, I'd stop feeding him his food in a bowl for a while. Just hand feed. Ask him to do something and then give him a handful of kibble right out of your hand. And then again and again.

Down the road, you can use a bowl, but drop in a handful while he sits and waits for a couple of seconds. Then give your release word, "Okay" or whatever you use and let him eat. The second he finishes that handful, walk away. Come right back and drop in another handful. Again, wait until he finishes and walk away. Come right back, repeat. Soon, he'll be begging you to come back, close to his bowl because you've shown him that you're the one who provides his food.

You can then hold the bowl on your lap and drop in a handful. Keep the supply within your reach, but hopefully, not his. lol. Keep your hand ON THE BOWL. The minute you take your hand off the bowl, you've relinquished it to his possession. As long as your hand is on the bowl, it's yours. He should recognize this. One handful, then another. However, if at any time you feel unsafe with these exercises, don't do them. Get professional help.

Get him use to the idea that you supply all the good stuff and the acquisition of good things is contingent on his behavior. No free toys. Keep them put away until you pick a out a play time and then ask him for a sit or down, come, whatever and then hand him a toy. Give him things that he likes, but not things that he is madly in love with. Go to him and take something like a special treat. Show him the treat and as he drops the toy into your outstretched hand, say, "give" and give him the treat. Give him back the toy. Repeat.

Along with this kind of practice, you could even set up pretend, random things for him to find. I say "pretend" but they're real things or food but they're something YOU have picked out that isn't terribly high value. Random, meaning different locations in and out of the house, different kinds of valuable things...sometimes in a bag maybe or in the corner of a room. In other words, make it so he will generalize "give" to any context or location.

"Leave it" is a good exercise too to teach. Make a game where you hold treats in both hands, closed fists with one behind your back. Let him nuzzle and poke, prod to try and get the treat. Say nothing. Do nothing. Just wait. Eventually, he'll back off a little bit to assess the situation as to why you're not giving him what's in your hand. The second he backs his head away, say, "Leave it" and bring your hidden hand around and open your fist for him to get the treat. Do this several times a day for a few reps. Don't use the cue to elicit the behavior until you're quite sure he's getting onto the game. Then try it out ahead of time and see if that will make him back off. If it doesn't, you need to go back to more practice with simultaneously saying the cue while he backs off.

Then try putting a treat on the floor near you. Be VERY ready to cover it with your foot if he goes for it. It must not happen that he beats you to it. Have a treat in your hand also, hidden. Try this first without the verbal cue a few times. When he finds he can't get to it, he'll hesitate to see what's up. When he does, say, "leave it" and furnish the treat from your hand and praise. Then start trying your cue to elicit the behavior in that context. Gradually work up some distance. Don't make him wait for more than just a second or two at first. Make it so he can succeed. What you're showing him is that by NOT taking the treat, he WILL get the treat. It WILL be given to him by YOU, not by his own grabbing of it.

With the furniture, if he doesn't have issues with that, he won't necessarily generalize his food guarding to that. Dogs don't generalize very much. And if he doesn't care about that, it isn't likely he will start to care. But, it's still a very good idea to practice placement cues with any dog. Teach him to get on with a cue. YOu can pat the couch and give a verbal cue and mildly praise. You don't have to praise or give a treat for that. The couch is the reward. Then coax him off with a cue and be all fun and lively. Then give him a treat for that. Getting off earns a treat. If you must, lure for 2 or 3 times...no more. If you're going to take a walk or do something he likes...maybe dinner time and he happens to be on the couch, when he gets off on his own, hurry and get in your cue, "off." Praise, treat or just give him what you were going to give him that he likes. Associate getting off or moving over with something good.

Don't use punishment or scolding if he resource guards. This will make him even more defensive of his stuff and "hostile." Try to set up his environment so he won't need to. And in the meantime, practice those exercises every day a few times. Plus general NILIF. Only I wouldn't be so rigid that some things can't be free. I think that is too stressful.
 

hanslynch

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#12
Is Doug still intact? How old is Doug? He must be on the younger side.

Has he been fed recently when he acts up like this?

Do you or whoever is in charge in your house walk him? I personally would walk him until he is lagging behind and you are in the lead on the walk. That is when I usually reinforce any commands I am working on with my dogs using positive reinforcement, affection, when they do things right and verbal corrections when he is not doing something right.
 

Paige

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Bandit used to resource guard EVERYTHING. His food, his sleeping space, his toys. Now this dog wouldn't think twice about giving up anything to anyone. I found his confidence to be extremely lacking and he'd lash out. Trading worked and just over all work with him tied to me to really strengthen our bond as a duo. As he began to respect and trust me, resource guarding was no longer an issue, and hasn't been for over two years.
 

LauraLeigh

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#14
Wow Dober, thanks for all that information!!



Is Doug still intact? How old is Doug? He must be on the younger side.

Has he been fed recently when he acts up like this?

Do you or whoever is in charge in your house walk him? I personally would walk him until he is lagging behind and you are in the lead on the walk. That is when I usually reinforce any commands I am working on with my dogs using positive reinforcement, affection, when they do things right and verbal corrections when he is not doing something right.
Ummmm........ How good of shape do you think I am in? Walk until he lags behind!? LOL

Besides, to be honest he is behaved on a leash most of the time and Lynn taught me what to do when he pulls...

He is well behaved, moves when asks, settles when asked, responds to some commands already, and actually does not guard his kibble, we have not had another incident but I am working on a drop it command so when the situation arises he is hopefully will respond to that. He actually is fine with his kibble, but we have been feeding him a cup at a time and getting him to focus on us when we give it to him, we take turns so he knows we all have good things for him.

I do believe that this is linked to having to scrounge/defend when on the run.

Oh, and the Vets think he is about 11/12 months and he is intact for now.
 

Doberluv

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#15
Is Doug still intact? How old is Doug? He must be on the younger side.

Has he been fed recently when he acts up like this?

Do you or whoever is in charge in your house walk him? I personally would walk him until he is lagging behind and you are in the lead on the walk. That is when I usually reinforce any commands I am working on with my dogs using positive reinforcement, affection, when they do things right and verbal corrections when he is not doing something right.
Walking until he lags behind? He has pano. I wouldn't walk a dog until he's so exhausted anyway, not to mention one who is in pain. How is that going to make him les worried about losing his possessions? It has nothing to do with respect or who's the boss. It has everything to do with showing him proof that you are the giver, not the taker.

Well Laura, if he not worried about kibble, and it's just a few other things, then there's not much to pracice on, so I'd still do those exercises anyhow. If he gets in the habit of having the mind set that you giveth and he receivith from you, lol...it just might help. Setting up a garbage can for him to get into, so you can practice with that specific problem area or stuff on the sink just allows him to practice that behavior of digging in the garbage, which isn't a good idea. So, try to physcially prevent him from getting into high value stuff until you've gotten him very use to the "game" of "give" where he gets a yummy treat, plus lots of praise/fun when he "gives" (or "drops") something and then he even gets it back. (a win-win for him) Then after a few times, you can put the thing away from him and change the subject. Does he like any toys or anything else that you could play the trading game with that isn't food or anything too terribly highly prized? Something to start out with? It's just a good game to play with any young dog, even one that isn't showing an iota of guarding tendencies. It's part of their education. LOL.
 

hanslynch

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#16
I did not know he had pano. I would not walk a dog long distances with pano for obvious reasons.

That said a dog that does not I stick by my earlier comments. While I agree with you the principle issue is not one of leadership or dominance, getting a dog, or human for that matter, a bit tired before working on giving orders is a proven technique.
 

milos_mommy

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#17
A bit tired, and a nearly full grown Dane lagging behind the average woman are two different things. He would be exhausted at that point.

Working with trading stuff he doesn't value to the point of guarding is what you want to start out with. Even if you never do have to pull dirty dishes away from him...it can't hurt.

I definitely think once he relaxes and views you all as bringers of good things, it will get better.
 

Doberluv

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#18
I did not know he had pano. I would not walk a dog long distances with pano for obvious reasons.

That said a dog that does not I stick by my earlier comments. While I agree with you the principle issue is not one of leadership or dominance, getting a dog, or human for that matter, a bit tired before working on giving orders is a proven technique.
A proven technique? To do what? I'm not sure I understand this.
 

milos_mommy

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A proven technique? To do what? I'm not sure I understand this.
I think they mean it might be a little tough to get a 10 month old, wired, unexercised puppy to focus on training, and that letting them release a little bit of pent up physical energy beforehand can be beneficial when trying to get them to focus during a training session.

Which, I'm sure has been proven....however, I'm not sure exhausting a dog beforehand would help much at all, it would probably just make them antsy, uninterested, and difficult.
 

Doberluv

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I think they mean it might be a little tough to get a 10 month old, wired, unexercised puppy to focus on training, and that letting them release a little bit of pent up physical energy beforehand can be beneficial when trying to get them to focus during a training session.

Which, I'm sure has been proven....however, I'm not sure exhausting a dog beforehand would help much at all, it would probably just make them antsy, uninterested, and difficult.

I didn't get the impression from the other threads about Doug, that he is bouncing off the walls or that he is a particularly intense or unfocused dog. Maybe I got that wrong. But having "proof" about something like this would be impossible, I think. There are too many variables in types of dogs...their personalities, their physical make-up, how they're affected by weariness. (if there is proof, I'd like to see documentation, not just somebody's opinion) Yeah sure, sometimes getting the edge off a young puppy's energy level before doing certain training helps. I've often recommended getting the "zoomies" out first. But I've also worked with lots of dogs that are high energy, crazy dogs where that energy helps them to work. They tend to be super eager and do everything with great gusto. When it's directed in the right way, they tend learn new things fast. I often try to get sluggish dogs revved up, energized and motivated. I prefer training dogs that have loads of enthusiasm and energy over dogs that are dragging around like dead weights.

Conversely, a lot of dogs that are overly tired can't focus either. They're brains are tired. Their bodies are tired. The last thing they want to do is pay attention or concentrate.

This dog apparently is walking nicely on a leash for the most part. I think I remember that from one of the posts the OP wrote. He seems to know some basic obedience. The problem she posted here was this resource guarding. And I just didn't get the connection between tiring the dog as being something that would have a significant effect on his view of people getting close to his possessions. I guess it could if he's too exhausted to care......LOL.
 

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