On-leash aggression on walks

I'm glad you dumped that trainer! Good for you. And not to be too critical but I would also dump the Monks and Millan I watched the Monks once, all they seem to do it give collar corrections until the dog stops, not my cup of tea but they are better than Millan, he's a TV personality more than a trainer. The control unleashed books sounds very good though, I like when any trainer points out that people accredit way to much to dominance (like Millan does) when it's fear, anxiety or just lack of understanding/training and socializing that is really the problem.

Now I don't know if any of these books will help with your problem but if you generally want to learn about how dogs think and how to train then check out some of these (I've only read two (# 6 and 7) but these are all on my Christmas list)

1.Bones Would Rain From the Sky by Suzanne Clothier
2.The Power of Positive Dog Training by Pat Miller
3.Click to Calm by Emma Parsons
4.Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor
5.For the Love of a Dog by Patricia McConnell
6.The Other end of the Leash by Patricia McConnel
7.The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson
8.Dogs, a Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior and Evolution by Raymond and Lorna Coppinger

Maxy, that's my Christmas list, too! I've read #2, 3, 4, 6, and 7, and those are always the first ones on my list for new owners/trainers.

Another Method - thoughts

After reading a bit more of control unleashed, I thought about introducing an modification technique with the use of high motivating toy. The toy I'm using is a tug rope. Anyway I keep this hidden, in my coat packet which to keeps the tug rope conspicuous. I pull this out at the oncoming sight of strange dog - as a distraction.

I try to determine the threshold distance at which my dog will begin to react putting him in sit or down/stay or heel exercises.

Now, my question should I immediately mark the event by saying "Dog!" in an upbeat fashion and pull out the toy even if my dog hasn;t noticed the other dog or has begun to show signals of agression?

The good thing is that when I have pulled this toy out he has immediately taken to it - we then have a highly energized game of tug for few moments. I have to teach him and work with him on proper 'release' command but it's encouraging that this tug toy is a motivator that is higher than the strange dog.

Another question: Is the tug toy acting to increase his state of agitation?

After I have gotten the toy back and the dog is gone, I then place him in down stay or work obedience until his mind has calmed down and I feel he is ready to continue with the walk.

Additionally I found a link to good article explaining a "two Reward Method" system in possibly solving this problem:

http://www.cappdt.ca/public/jpage/1/p/Article2RewardSystem/content.do

Now I need to find a trainer thats willing to employ this method.

Did you get the pm I sent you with the links to trainers recommended by people I know, in your area?

Lynn

Oh, gosh I forgot to check that! Thanks....

I haven't read "Control Unleashed," but if it had described this method it should've been very clear about what behavior to mark. From the info you gave, though, I'd mark as soon as your dog sees the other dog, but well before he can show signs of aggression (otherwise you're rewarding the aggression!).

Yes, I would think so. That's why most trainers suggest treats, they don't agitate, the dog unless the dog is very bad about food guarding.

You really think the toy is agitating the dog Lizzy? Many people use toys as rewards and I think as long as the dog is clearly enjoying the game and not getting too worked up and releases the toy on command I don't know if I think it would cause him agitation but I'm no expert. Not all dogs respond well to treats so what reward should be used for them?

Treats are not working unless I'm at the threshold distance where I can maintain a slight degree of attention. I'm using high level treats like hot dog chunks and not kibble.

If the other dogs on the encounter are showing any signs of agitation, it justs escalates. The main problem I'm having is we walk for a peaceful stroll, and BAM - two black yorkies pop around the corner barking like all get at out and their owner is yelling at them to calm down. Whipping out the tug toy, I attempt to get the my dogs attention and walk to a threshold distance and work through a few commands and offer the toy as a reward.

With dogs in the neighborhood he knows and plays with at the parks off leash, he can walk by in heel with little problem - sometimes offering the "let's play" whimper. He can maintain the heel. But with these sudden encounters that break the threshold - (I'm still attempting to figure this out) he just loses focus.

You can imagine how difficult this is because the specific scenario is often unpredictable yet it continues to disrupt my walking in the neighboorhood. Some days are better than others - I'm just afraid his will to take on strange dogs and break heel is terribly strong and I don't think I'll ever get him at a level. Despite this, he's intelligent outgoing, and great house dog.

I have not finished CU yet, but here is what I would do, for what it's worth.
When tugging, you have to work on getting an immediate release, that the dog doesn't get so over the top when tugging, that they don't loose control, shut down their brains etc.
How a dog tugs *can* or is directly related to how the handler tugs, if he is getting over the top or esculating, slow down your tugging, make sure your voice is calm and low.
I would also use the tug along with some very highly valued food rewards and mix them up, my dog would never know which reward it was getting.

Personally I wouldn't use the tug or a food reward as a distraction. From a distance I would allow my dog to see the other dog, then I would cue my dog to focus on me and reward, whether it be with a food reward or tug. Start by choosing dogs in the distance that he would be more tolerant of, clicking and rewarding for focus on you and working within his comfort zone.
I would expect the type of dog that gets him responding the most would be dogs that are similiar to the Husky that grabbed him. Therefore I would avoid those types of dogs in the beginning of the training, working gradually towards long distance encounters with them to then working near them. You have to work with in his comfort zone.

Is the tug toy acting to increase his state of agitation?
Absolutey you can get your dog agitated when tugging and with some dogs it shouldn't used.
But having said that, it can be a huge benefit as long as you are careful how you teach tug and how you tug.
Example:
One of my students in agility can whip her dogs into a frenzy for tugging, she has also not taught them a good 'out', her dogs get more excited as each second passes, her voice is very high, movements are sharpe and hard. In short she pumps them up to the point where their brains leave the building.
I don't allow her to tug this way in my classes, its of no benefit. She is allowed to tug with them as long as she remains quiet and calm, which is how her dogs will tug if allowed (still working on getting her to train a better release lol).
Big difference in how her dogs respond, when she tugs softly, they tug and actually get calmer while still being rewarded.
But if she tugs in a frenzy, they respond as such, she also has to remain calm when running a sequence or course, if she is 'over the top' herself, her dogs feed off of it and by the time they get to the 5th obstacle, they are responding to her high pitched voice, hard body movements etc, they can't do the job at hand, they miss obstacles (can even crash into them) and then if she were to top it off by a hard game of tug............it would be a right off.
Hope this makes sense and is some use to you

Lynn

I agree, treats don't work on all dogs, and I definately suggest toys, if appropriate, or other reinforcers, for that small percentage. But since the owner was concerned that the dog was too worked up, and since the dog does not release reliably on command, I feel that it probably does cause agitation. But as with everything, it's really difficult to say for sure since I cannot see the dog myself, so it's certainly possible that I'm wrong.

And OP, you might consider practicing this in a wide open space, like an open field or quiet park. You don't have to expose your dog to a lot of dogs in one session (actually, only a few dogs per session would probably work much better), so you don't have to stay in your neighborhood or a dog park.

The tug toy is not increasing his state of agitation but is redirecting it - thats my gut feeling. I never let him take it away from me, and often I can hold him up in the air and he still has the bite on it. My dog is also careful not to hurt me - and he can distinguish my finger and releases. I do need to work on a cue and train him to release however. Once I get the tug toy away from him, I can put the toy behind my back and cue him into a sit or down stay assuming we are far enough away from the agitators. There is another item I have called flying squirrel my dog just loves as well but I haven't tried this as a counter conditioning device.

When we encounter these situations on our walks is 1 or twice per walk so I'm not constantly exposing him - its just these random events that other strange dogs will turn the corner suddenly which is sometime hard to avoid in a neighborhood full of dogs - good owners and bad.

territorial marking and pooping

One tidbit I picked from a dog book regarded marking - peeing and pooping. These excretatory markers serve as reminders to other dogs in the area of perceived rank and status. I don't necessarily subscribe to this, I just read it.

My question - should potty and poop be contained in the yard?

Because we cover alot of ground and area when walking the neighborhood, there are several spots where my dog will always poop or pee. Afterward, he does this scratch and kick dirt behavior followed by a few grunts which to me appears to be a dominant type behavior.

I need to get better about not allowing him to pee on posts during the walk- this territorial marking my be contributing to this reactive leash aggressive behavior.

I have never seen a relation between dogs marking in public areas and the reactivity issues you have. I have never seen a dog exhibit territorial behaviors in a "common" area such as a park, unless it is being territorial about it's owner, it's vehicle, or the spot it is standing on at the moment. I've had territorial dominant dogs, and yea, they remark the same places when out in public, but they don't show any real ownership of those areas.

As for the treats, will he work for treats when he's in his comfort zone? If he will, then when he stops taking treats while he's agitated, it's a good indication that he's overloaded, at which time he is unable to learn anything. While the toy at that point might help redirect him, he still is in a frame of mind where there is little to no learning happening.

Kicking the dirt is absolutely not a dominant behavior.

If you're on a long walk, your dog will have to go potty, and forbidding him to go is not only almost impossible (my dog has pooped in the road while continuing to walk), but is bordering on cruel (yes, I felt really bad about that incident, and have learned from it).

Marking is different, though. I don't think there's really anything bad about marking, except that it's annoying to stop at every post, and sometimes there are things you DON'T want your dog to mark (your friend's new car, for example.... yes, I learned from that experience too ). With marking, you can just redirect your dog to something else, and reward when he sniffs a post and decides not to mark it.

lol, kicking the dirt is a riot in my opinion!! My dogs do it all the time and I encourage them by saying 'oh, your the big dog!!' and they bounce around putting on a huge show.

I have a stud dog that I compete with and there are times when he is *allowed* to mark, but an easy 'off' stops him from even thinking about it. He is absolutey never allowed when competing anywheres near the ring (even an outside trial/show), that is the rule and he knows it. Considering he is almost 8 years old now, he has never marked in the ring, even during agility and running after the dog before him marked or 'went' in the ring.
I agree as well, marking isn't always about dominance, its just letting everyone in the neighborhood that they were there and leaving a calling card.
Even the most submissive dogs will mark, males and females.
Just as a side note: I never allow my dogs whether it be at a trial, at home or in public to pee on anything that is handled by people, i.e trash can at the park etc, someone has to pick that up at some point and time and it shouldn't be covered by a ka zillion gallons of dog pee. It's rude.
How nice for someone in a neighborhood that enjoys working on their flower gardens, that has to deal with that, just because the garden was close to the side walk........

Kicking the dirt is just because dogs have scent glands in their paws and it's just an extra bit of info to leave with their calling card. Though I've noticed with both my guys they usually only kick when they are "done for the day" with either their pooping or peeing. They don't kick after every squirt, but I can tell they're "mission: accomplished" with their peeing when they do their little tap dance afterwards. After they do that, pee-marking is no longer a priority for them for the rest of the walk.

I only regulate where and when the dogs go for the safety and comfort of others, not to control any behavioral tendencies they may have. There's no peeing on other people's lawns or gardens, and I try to not let them poop on the edges of people's lawns either though sometimes, it just kind of happens. I mean, I pick it up every time regardless, but some people get really uptight about it even if you do pick it up.

I think there is such a thing as "micromanaging" one's dog and reading waaaay too much in to every little thing they do. At the end of the day there are just some things that almost all dogs do and you just can't really give a pat reason for why every dog who does it, does it.

Besides, your dog is reactive out of fear issues, so why would dominance be a problem?

Scent glands in the paws? I find that bit odd - especially since the main olfactory organ of the dog is it's nose. Just curius to know where you read that fact.

Perhaps I should have opened another thread on this issue - I just presented the question after noticing his sniffing, growling, agitation and kicking the dirt on homeplate like an upset baseball manager after a bad call. It's almost like my dog says - **** it, how dare any other dog mark my space.

After reading a portion of the book called "Dog Behavior" "an encyclopedia of Canine Behaviour by Roger Abrantes p160 reads "Marking is abehavior of claiming territory or an object by leaving an identification mark on it....it is primarly a dominant or self confident canines that who mark. The purpose of marking is to inform other dogs that the territory is inhabitied. "

I always stay sensitive to other people lawns, choose places that aren't heavily trafficed, and always clean up but inevitably he does manage to get few pees in poles during the walk. Often a "heel" command will reorient his attention and block his efforts but he is sly and can get few pees on the walk.

I'm probably reading way too much into the marking but when you're working on a problem that is frustrating, I'll consider any information, particular if it parallels what I see in my own dog. I just thought that perhaps limiting his marking on walks, and getting better about having specified "poop" areas, particulary on my property might eventually mitigate his fear aggression toward other particular dogs in the neighborhood.