Appropriate age to breed bitches

I learned the hard way too, I bred one of my girls at 4 1/2 for the first time.
I had gone back and forth, as to whether I was going to breed her. Proven in the working field, proven in performance and had done well in the conformation ring. Clear on all testing. Bred her because I wanted to preserve her lines. Bred her to an awesome stud. What a bloody nightmare, C-section then she rejected the pups............3 pups 2 males and 1 female.
The female and one of the males are not breeding quality and the other male has already been neutered.
Wont breed her again, didn't get to preserve the line and spent thousands.

There's an old wives tale about what number litter the bitches BEST pups will be produced in and I wanna say 2nd...but I don't remember now...darnit! Or maybe it was at a certain age....grrr curse my bad memory!

I agree the dead pups and after c sections were more than likely age.
But the immune issues in the first litter not evident in the 2nd has me wondering.
She was inbred half brother to half sister to a double recessive liver dog - whose grandsire was also in the pedigree as double recessive liver 2 times.

Either way thank god I got a different bitch with no relation bred her at age 2.5 and no c sections no dead pups no big issues genetic wise yet ( 2 entropians thou).

Mistake with bitch #2 is what someone posted I waited too long between litters and she was not able to concieve at past 5....

Ive learned hard lessons but I make my breeding decisions based on the love I have for my pets first and dont like to take risks with them by breeding OLD dogs or breeding knowing the dog cant whelp naturally or breed naturally.

I personally feel once we start to use science to breed dogs that cant breed naturally . Thus nature is not able to select (cull) out the weak_ we create a science project vs breeding dogs. And they seem to lose something in longivty, health, and working ability.

The issue of culling is a ticklish one to discuss...but I do have my views on that as well.

Yes I agree adojrts. I GDC hips elbows, did 3 champion titles, traveled to every show 15 a year. spent $750 each c section etc etc spent of 40,000 and did not get one female to breed on to.

I do hope to breed the one male later even if to just have a Tasha grandkid ...and if all pets I would spay all f and require strict control of males like I do any way..

Tasha turns 11 in 2 weeks I cant imagine not have her around

God was smiling and sent me a unrelated aboriginal working line a year afte the bad first litter. Had to give up a tennis bracelit for that one due to xmas timing.

And she is the reason I am a breeder today------

Well when i use culling i talk about working lGDS, in which the bitches pushed some pups away in a wild state to save a few, shepherds pick out what would live and not hurt the bitch so she could work and move... And predators picking off the week....

i dont believe in culling, as said on my site for 10 years I believe in spay and neutering what others would cull.,

My first cull is FoxFire Precious born a runt too small to get mouth on nipple .
Bottle fed her for 3 hrs other for 10 days, some told to kill her.
She was spayed ( too young) and is doing fine 1 inch under the standard.

culling IS actually inclusive of s/n. It is by any means, separating the wheat from the chaff literally. It has nothing to do with death or killing. It is an archaic term meaning only to separate. Any breeder who s/n pet pups, or grades puppies...is culling.

Can I quote? I love that explianation Yes I do spay neuter and cull as per your terms.

I know of breeders who CULL as in Kill pups for being wrong color, wrong size, wrong temperament and or health/comformation issues like clef palates.
I dont agree with it but I also dont agree with sending pet dogs out of standard out to the buying public without strict s/n.

But more often than not when you here the word CULL most JUMP to the conclusion you are PTS pups..

I believe it can also be the down fall for a small breeder (which I am). We bank alot of just a couple of dogs and if that doesn't work out for any reason we are now scrambling.

Yes feel free! You can even back up your quote with the dictionary...it's the same basic definition.

Wish we had a defination site plus a slang site plus a acceptable or ethical or what is considered the norm for dog breeding.

What one defines a term even in a published document others dont agree.

What is ethical is not ethical or considered normal to others in dog breeding.
Min age- max age - s/n etc.

Yes I agree small breeders can get in trouble basing everything on small kennels.
Which is why I did stop a requirement for males that meet the standard but sold as pet to be neutered, ( optional for owner after 2 years) I lost 2 pick males and I almost lost the entire bloodlines after one owner got 2 dogs killed in accidents...and almost all others were neutered.

NOw I say pls let me collect them then nueter them, JUST IN CASE you never know.

Here's a question for you.
I've got a friend that's female bred a little over 2 years. Hips Good, sire untested and was a little over a year old. The bitch had 2 pups naturally and one retained. C-section and last pup didn't make it...but vet said he wouldn't have made it even if he'd been born naturally.

So, what happened here? Bitch was of a good age. Both were healthy. The 2 surviving pups are VERY healthy and strong with no problems. Why was the last one retained and what would have made him be underdeveloped?

I think the issue of breeding old bitches just depends on individuality. My girl Terra is from the 3rd and final breeding of an 8-year-old bitch, and it was an incredible litter. One of the reasons I wanted a pup from that breeding so badly is because I knew the female was getting up there, and she still acts like a puppy. To me longevity is important, so I would be inclined to give high consideration to a litter from a female who is older but acts younger.

JMO. I still know precious little about breeding, mostly what my gut tells me.

Oh, I wanted to add. I've heard some people who have bitches that are small for their breed actually prefer to breed them before what we would consider the ideal. They feel that loosening up the uterus at a young age will be beneficial to her ability to whelp later. Anybody ever heard of this?

I've been researching breeding and all the related topics quite a bit that last year or two - wanted to answer questions I had before I made any decision on Khana and breeding her. I've read as many of Dr. Hutchinson's seminars as I could find. He seems to be one of the leading canine reproduction specialists currently.

From what I understand in reading his seminars is that he encourages breeders to breed bitches early and explains in detail that progesterone (released during estrus - heat cycles) really hammers the uterus and causes deterioration every cycle. He indicates that it's actually healthier for a HEALTHY bitch to be bred back to back cycles than to skip a cycle. I haven't seen him advocate breeding EVERY cycle, but if you were going to breed a bitch a couple of times he feels that it would be better to breed her back to back and then spay her, than to breed her, wait a year or two and breed her again. I think he said in one seminar (maybe more than one) that the uterus actually is more damaged going through a heat cycle than it is going through pregnancy.

But I also remember reading about breeding older bitches (let's call "older" from 4-7) and the consensus was that breeding an older bitch wasn't bad, it just wasn't a great idea if it was her first litter. Considering that the uterus, at that point, had probably been through 8 or more heat cycles, there could be considerable degeneration already. I'm pretty sure that Dr. Hutchinson said that a bitch that was bred fairly regularly (as long as she was healthy otherwise, of course) could usually be bred as an older bitch without having many problems. It's the maiden bitches that tend toward problems.

I don't think he was advocating breeding before health certifications or before a bitch is fully grown, and he wasn't advocating continual breeding of a bitch either. He recommended that if you weren't going to breed your bitch for a few cycles to put her on Cheque Drops (mibolerone). Trouble is, mibolerone is difficult to get as it's a steroid and is used illegally by bodybuilders. But he praised it as a means of stopping estrus in a bitch and protecting the uterus from the effects of progesterone during non-breeding times.

To the orginal poster's question: if a bitch is less than two years old and is on her second litter, the likelihoods that this breeder did any real testing is probably slim. OFA certifications for hips and elbows can't be done until age two. As explained, preliminaries can be done and other organizations may do hip and elbow certifications earlier than two years, but there are other health certifications as well as proving a dog with working certifications or show/working titles. This all takes time. Breeders who emphasize health are generally very straight-forward in their proof of health certifications .. they offer the OFA numbers or copies of the certificates with little or no request from potential puppy buyers (or anyone else who wants to know).

Time's slippin' away on my girl - she's three now and I am probably not going to breed her, so I'm considering having her spayed. Been through pyometra with one bitch, don't want to have it happen to another.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

I agree each bitch is different I only have one that I could breed when she turns 7.
gets her figure and energy and coat back withing 30 days from whelping and never needed a c section.

My other 2 bitches just take time like 3-4 months to recover natural labor.

If the 8 year old is in good shape i guess it would be okay IF she could give birth naturally . Retaining pups from litter to litter to litter to litter is a sign that says stop breeding....

Melanie: Thanks for the informative reply. Very helpful.

I would look behind the bitch, maybe. Bitches tend to follow thier Mom's with regard to whelping. Free whelpers with large sized litters tend to produce the same. Stud dogs seem to have little to do with that. One bitch I had was from a Mom that always produced one BIG puppy amongst the other normal sized ones...and that held true for her daughter. Even down to poor mothering or maternal interest...can be passed along.

This is why reproductive vigor/mothering instinct is moving up the ladder of things I consider to be important in my programme.

Some say that not timing a breeding right...breeding at the END of the window where conception is possible allows the eggs to degrade a bit...and can result in issues. Others say folic acid lacking can cause issues, trauma such as a major life change or dog fight, ditto. One thing you cannot do in dogs is expect a concrete answer or 'why' for everything. It's almost never the same road, twice.

Twist, Dekka and Snips mom was like that. She had quite a few litters over the years, I got her for one last litter (she was one of my all time favorite JRTs) Dekka and Snip were her last at 7 1/2. She had 8 puppies, which is quite a big litter for JRTs. She did great, all the pups but one were super healthy. The one pup failed to thrive. If I knew then what I know now, Rigby would likely have lived. But no issues etc for the mom. And all other 7 pups grew up healthy and happy.

Must say I enjoyed this thread. Only place I can come and not feel like the apple in the orange basket..

This is a very interesting thread! I am learning a ton...

Dekka, can I ask what you would have done differently with that one pup? I ask because while I will not be breeding a litter, probably ever, I do want to foster a pregnant momma dog and raise a litter that way. So all info is great!