koehler method of dog training

V Wilson, I wasn't trying to start another debate on the downfalls of your methods, you have already researched this forum and know how the majority of us feel when it comes to these aversive methods, it would be like beating a dead horse. My point in posting here today was to show the original poster that there are many other methods and all of them should be researched well before bringing the dog to class.

Exactly!!! When I want to modify a behavior I approach the psychology of what causes the behaviors, why this causes the behaviors, when this causes the behaviors, how this behavior occurs, etc, which leads to being able to replace the unwanted behavior with a desirable behavior. I don't want to 'cure' my dog through fear. Pschology allows you to find the root of the problem and allow a sound and consistent alternate behavior to replace the old. Without considering the psychology behind the behavior you can infact cause more psychological damage. We just approach this in two different ways. Does my method take longer? Perhaps, but my method doesn't mask the original problem because of fear, it has actually been replaced.

Again, I ask why does modern day science not support your methods???

Wrong, You would be surprised at the knowledge on this forum and many are very knowledgable about those methods. It's because of that knowledge that so many know there are far better methods.

But, yet, here you are.... *giggles*

Anywho-----

I think the methods are purely outdated and are for those that have this notion that they are some superior, dominate being over their dog and feel the need to demonstrate such dominance via means of physical punishments (otherwise known as abuse to those smart enough to put two and two together). Definitely not needed.

It surprises me, too, that it's even remotely popular with what we know now regarding dog behaviors. Respect is earned and is not at all done so by an individual putting their hands or instruments even on an innocent creature. Talk about disrespect.

ETA:

If you looks closely in this pic, there are hot dog slices at each of my dogs feet. Hot dogs are a hot commodity in this house. They can smell them from far away. Where are they looking? At ME. That's respect. Thats being obedient. They were told "leave it" and leave it they will. I did not need to hit them, threaten them nor do anything physical to get them to do this. And they would STILL love me and respect me if they didn't get those hot dogs...

oh, i own a copy of the koehler method of dog training. my favorite part was the instructions on how to electrify a chicken. at this point, i find it much more informative about the people who support his methods than i do about actually training a dog.

As I said I will not engage in conflict.
The books are available used, on Ebay for as little as 2.50-10.00 each plus shipping, and I just bought 3 of them.
I would suggest people who want to know about the methods read them, with an open mind, and make a fair minded attempt to process the information fairly, and without preconcieved ideas.
Should they choose to utilize them I would suggest they follow the method, and not modify to suit, or appease their own personal emotional issues,

I would suggest people do the same with All Positive, or food based training methods also.

My area of interest is in aggressive, and training resistent dogs, so my views are very different than those who work mostly with the easier to train dogs.

Given the reality that shelters, and animal control agencys are full of dogs with behavior problems, I see no need to argue with what works to create a stable, dog that is sound of mind, no matter the methology.

Supposedly, sharing what works should be the goal of any training forum.

Val W

then your intentions should be even MORE SO to resolve the underlying issues, not just suppress the problem behaviors through punishment.

i hope your reading list also includes people like brenda aloff and pamela dennison.

Aside from the fact that the OP on this thread just wants regular ole pet dog training for their regular ole pet dog. Even if I did think that Koehler methods were okay for serious rehab cases, don't you think it's sort of overkill for the average non-issues-having pet dog?

So because you disagree with a single method, or several suggested, in the back of the book, in a section for dealing with the most problematic dogs, to stop a dog from killing chickens, and other animals, you disregard the whole program, Without regard for whether it works, or not for the most delinquent of dog who are in danger of euthanasia.
I shall discontinue my participation in this thread, as it is serving no pupose.

V Wilson

I've read all that I want to read, thanks. Its not for me, nor should it be for any dog owner with respect for his or her animals.

Do you really believe that treating already aggressive dogs with physical punishment is wise?

On second thought.. don't answer that. I already know the answer seeing as I know who you are and why you're here.

I read his stuff. I read it back before I was into positive training. But even then I felt it was abusive and punished the dog for a trainers lack of talent. IMO if a dog needs a correction, then you have failed in your training. A dog will do what it is trained to do IF it has been conditioned to do so. A correction is what people do when their training fails.

Also VWilson, I find it interesting that you ask us to read with an open mind. Yet you imply that positive training is tossing tidbits. That is ridiculous, and disingenuous.

most of the dogs in shelters are dogs with issues. most have been to a positive-reinforcement training class or classes which obviously didn't work. the trainer tells them to put the dog down, which they do because the trainer teaches positive reinforcement which is humane so the trainer is humane, isn't he?

yes, positive reinforcement can work on the low-energy, easy temperment dogs, but it is when a dog comes in that has problems it fails. on the other hand richling, Konrad Most, Koehler,etc.'s methods will work on any dog. You just have to figure out how hard of a correction the dog needs. Some need a stern voice others need a hard pop on the leash. That's where the art of dog training comes in.

I also wouldn't give sly the same light pop i would give mickey. That would be under-correcting him. It builds his resistance to me because i am nagging him and eventually he will snap because he has had enough of my nagging. I would deserve that beautiful gash he would leave in my arm because i nagged him so he snapped.It's the art of dog training. You have to be able to suit it to the dog in front of you, not get a dog that is aggressive and say he needs to put down or given to someone else because my methods don't work on him and i am not going to use any corrective measures.IMO

He might snap anyways. And that snap might not be a beautiful gash on your arm. It may be your life.

no. when i give him the correction he needs for his temperment, i am eradicating the whole thought of resisting what i tell him to do.

Remember, a well trained protection dog is the only defensive that can not and will not be used against you.

How very wrong you are. I've trained a great dane who upon meeting me put his big head right in my face, growled, showed his teeth and engaged me.

Had I struck at the dog, I'd likely be dead. Instead, I used my KNOWLEDGE to get out of the situation, and 6 months down the road, I was able to place him confidently in a home.

He was far from an easy temperament. Far from low energy. He wanted to shred me the day I went to pick him up. We had several trials and tribulations, but NILIF training is a miracle. I never had to strike him. Until I could confidently handle him, I muzzled him. I used a gentle tone, positive reinforcement and built him up so that he no longer felt the need to be so pushy. The dog needed an alpha, and without becoming some stick weilding mad-woman, I became his alpha.

Knowledge is SUCH a better option than force.

WTH does that have to do with this topic.

I don't know how many times I have to say it before it finally sinks in - dogs are NOT perfect, not infallible, and most importantly, not machines.

Push one too many times, self preservation kicks in and they will push back.

Purdue, you are sadly misinformed about positive training. Take Patricia McConnell for example; she regularly works with problem dogs, often with extreme aggression problems and saves them from a terrible fate. She helps these dogs and their owners without being harsh in any way or laying a hard hand on them. That is training skill.
Correcting a dog and making it obey you because it is scared of what happens otherwise is hardly training.

A dog a mans best friend.

You keep telling yourself that.

ime, most of the dogs in shelters are dogs who haven't been trained, period. it's less that they have issues and more that they had disinterested, lazy owners.

my latest and greatest shelter dog would completely shut down if i corrected him for something. his biggest flaw is that he has thunderstorm anxiety. his second biggest flaw is that he paws for attention. but boy howdy has that attention seeking been a powerful tool to use to teach him alternate behaviors. he's there begging for something he wants, and i can use that so easily to create a) an alternate and more acceptable behavior (i chose to teach him to lie down) and b) a reward worth working for.