Just want to set the record straight here. That is just not true. All animals with a brain stem learn by reward. All animals, including humans spend every second of their day learning what behavior gets them to the things in life they need. If this were not true, they would lose the will to live. If reward based methods don't "work," then it's not because the animal doesn't learn that way or isn't responsive. It's because the trainer isn't setting it up effectively. So, just so people reading this thread understand...reward based methods will work with ANY dog. It' a matter of learning how to be creative and finding the best motivator for the dog.
Another statement: that it takes longer to train using reward based methods. I disagree with that. I've found personally, that the dog's desire to work for reward is stronger than his desire to avoid pain. The effects of reward based training are longer lasting and more reliable. I've trained both ways and so what the science of behavior where dogs are concerned has to say, I must say that I concur.
Anyhow, I hope you do indeed have a good trainer and that your dog will be happy doing this. I agree with RD about the stigma that Pits already have and that this might make that worse. If people see that, they think the dog is vicious, when it's really play. Of course, play can go into prey in a heart beat.
Another statement: that it takes longer to train using reward based methods. I disagree with that. I've found personally, that the dog's desire to work for reward is stronger than his desire to avoid pain. The effects of reward based training are longer lasting and more reliable. I've trained both ways and so what the science of behavior where dogs are concerned has to say, I must say that I concur.
Anyhow, I hope you do indeed have a good trainer and that your dog will be happy doing this. I agree with RD about the stigma that Pits already have and that this might make that worse. If people see that, they think the dog is vicious, when it's really play. Of course, play can go into prey in a heart beat.
Oh man. This is such a long thread that I don't know if someone's addressed this or not. But just in case . . .
Properly used, a choke collar does NOT choke the dog. You keep it loose 99% of the time . . . when the dog surges ahead, you pop off a correction, then immediately let the leash go slack and praise. (It takes a lot of practice at first . . . basically you pull back fast for the correction while saying "no", then quickly put your arm forward to create the slack while praising the dog. You want to put across the idea slack=good, tight=bad.)
My dog also would pull and strain and choke and pull if you just held the leash. But with the snap-and-release method, she would walk nicely . . . One thing I didn't like about the choke collar, though, was that sometimes it didn't "release" enough IMO, and then I'd have to stop and readjust it on her neck.
Using a choke chain is really more work than using a flat collar when you're starting out!
Properly used, a choke collar does NOT choke the dog. You keep it loose 99% of the time . . . when the dog surges ahead, you pop off a correction, then immediately let the leash go slack and praise. (It takes a lot of practice at first . . . basically you pull back fast for the correction while saying "no", then quickly put your arm forward to create the slack while praising the dog. You want to put across the idea slack=good, tight=bad.)
My dog also would pull and strain and choke and pull if you just held the leash. But with the snap-and-release method, she would walk nicely . . . One thing I didn't like about the choke collar, though, was that sometimes it didn't "release" enough IMO, and then I'd have to stop and readjust it on her neck.
Using a choke chain is really more work than using a flat collar when you're starting out!
Thanks Doc. It's nice that someone with your caliber of behavioral knowledge and experience and your university degree in animal behavior backs what I actually think because I think many times when just little old me posts things, people don't take me seriously. Just so people who read these threads understand that it's very serious business that we treat dogs with respect and fairness and train them with their needs and their way of learning and their cognitive abilities in mind. Or we can ruin their short and precious lives.
You're right. "You've got to know when to fold 'em, know when to hold 'em, know when to walk away, know when to run. You never count your money, while you're sitting at the table, they'll be time enough for countin' when the dealins' done." (love that song. It speaks volumes) I'm high stakes and haven't learned when to fold very well. I'll follow your lead.
You're right. "You've got to know when to fold 'em, know when to hold 'em, know when to walk away, know when to run. You never count your money, while you're sitting at the table, they'll be time enough for countin' when the dealins' done." (love that song. It speaks volumes) I'm high stakes and haven't learned when to fold very well. I'll follow your lead.
My dog would respond to treats when she was training in the house or yard, but the minute we were on a walk, she would not touch a treat. She would pretend not to see them. She would stare politely past your hand if you held a treat in front of her nose. The same treats she would gobble up in an instant at home! Dog biscuits, ham, cheese . . . I wasted more cheese.
She wasn't interested in toys either. She would respond to verbal praise, so that was mostly what I used. (She wasn't really into physical praise, like petting.)
She wasn't interested in toys either. She would respond to verbal praise, so that was mostly what I used. (She wasn't really into physical praise, like petting.)
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A few further comments ..
When I first got Trick (my shepherd) I choose to do as close to 100% positive training as I could. She was (in a way) my experimental dog. I wanted to see how all positive training would turn out compared to my previous dogs who had more harsh training. So I was all cookies and fun with her. I shaped behaviors. We played games. I used toys and tugs and balls and all that with her to reward her behaviors in addition to food treats. By the time she was six months old, we had a very attentive heel, a fast and accurate sit, and a good dumbbell retrieve with a front sit.
I continued on with the positive training and did add in a bit of correction (mostly just verbal) but she was nearly entirely trained with clicker-type training. Her recalls were fantastic, she was responsive and OH so trusting in me! We could work off-leash in training classes with strange dogs around us by the time she was a year old. There were NO corrective collars of any kind - she was mostly trained off-leash to start with.
When she was two, I went to a schutzhund test (my chow earned her BH at that test - absolutely NO practice ahead of time, I'd never even seen the pattern prior to that .. *L* .. I got talked into doing it when I arrived). After the test, they were having people bring out their dogs to assess them for bitework. When I walked out with Trick the guy asked me what her background was. I told him "two years of obedience training". Immediately they said "Oh, she won't do well. Dogs who have obedience training lose their drive." Then I stood there as he lectured the crowd on why you should work bitework early and not shut a dog down with obedience training. I tried to tell him that it was all positive training and he told me that wouldn't matter.
So he finally said "let's give her a try". He told me to stay still and hold her back if she tried to go forward. He agitated her with whatever they were using (I think it was a sleeve, but he didn't have it on), she focused on it and then hit the end of the leash trying to get to it. He looked surprised and when she continued to try to get to the sleeve, he told me to let her get to it. When I went forward with her, I tripped and the guy shouted "DON'T LET GO OF HER!!" .. *LOL* .. she was SO intent on getting that sleeve! She grabbed it, he tugged a bit and then released and had me run her off the field.
When I came back, he was telling the crowd how I had done the training with her in such a way that she had retained her drive. Later the guy who judged the test came up to me and asked if I was going to breed her. I told him no, that she was spayed - and he gave me a bad time for spaying one of the "good ones".
So while you may run into some "clicker trained" dogs who won't leave their owner's side, it is much less likely to have that happen with a positively trained dog than it is with a dog trained with aversives. Aversives will shut down drive. Motivational training, if done right, should BUILD drive. If a dog has truly been trained with positive reinforcement and not aversives, then it's unlikely that the training has anything to do with it not responding to bitework. The dog may very well not have the drives for it anyway .. or the trainer wasn't as positive as they say (or you assumed).
If a dog is capable of learning, it's capable of learning by reinforcement methods. What I've found is that people are confused as to what reward based training is. It isn't a matter of bribing with a treat. It isn't a matter of giving treats willy-nilly for every behavior. It's a structured, thought-out, solid way of training that requires some knowledge (as all training should). I see so many people tossing treats at their dogs, marking behaviors at the wrong time (therefore marking the wrong behavior) and then proclaiming "reward training doesn't work!" when it is 100% their fault it isn't working.
Done right, reward training works. Sometimes, for whatever reason, there may be a reason when an aversive is used. But all basic behaviors can be taught using rewards.
By the way, Trick (my first mostly positive trained dog) earned her AKC CD in one weekend (three trials), with a final score of 197. She earned her CKC CD in one weekend (three trials), with a final score of 196.5 (and it was 96 degrees out and MISERABLY hot even inside). She earned all her rally trials and never flunked once - and even earned a perfect 100. Not bad for a dog who never wore a corrective collar in training ..
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
When I first got Trick (my shepherd) I choose to do as close to 100% positive training as I could. She was (in a way) my experimental dog. I wanted to see how all positive training would turn out compared to my previous dogs who had more harsh training. So I was all cookies and fun with her. I shaped behaviors. We played games. I used toys and tugs and balls and all that with her to reward her behaviors in addition to food treats. By the time she was six months old, we had a very attentive heel, a fast and accurate sit, and a good dumbbell retrieve with a front sit.
I continued on with the positive training and did add in a bit of correction (mostly just verbal) but she was nearly entirely trained with clicker-type training. Her recalls were fantastic, she was responsive and OH so trusting in me! We could work off-leash in training classes with strange dogs around us by the time she was a year old. There were NO corrective collars of any kind - she was mostly trained off-leash to start with.
When she was two, I went to a schutzhund test (my chow earned her BH at that test - absolutely NO practice ahead of time, I'd never even seen the pattern prior to that .. *L* .. I got talked into doing it when I arrived). After the test, they were having people bring out their dogs to assess them for bitework. When I walked out with Trick the guy asked me what her background was. I told him "two years of obedience training". Immediately they said "Oh, she won't do well. Dogs who have obedience training lose their drive." Then I stood there as he lectured the crowd on why you should work bitework early and not shut a dog down with obedience training. I tried to tell him that it was all positive training and he told me that wouldn't matter.
So he finally said "let's give her a try". He told me to stay still and hold her back if she tried to go forward. He agitated her with whatever they were using (I think it was a sleeve, but he didn't have it on), she focused on it and then hit the end of the leash trying to get to it. He looked surprised and when she continued to try to get to the sleeve, he told me to let her get to it. When I went forward with her, I tripped and the guy shouted "DON'T LET GO OF HER!!" .. *LOL* .. she was SO intent on getting that sleeve! She grabbed it, he tugged a bit and then released and had me run her off the field.
When I came back, he was telling the crowd how I had done the training with her in such a way that she had retained her drive. Later the guy who judged the test came up to me and asked if I was going to breed her. I told him no, that she was spayed - and he gave me a bad time for spaying one of the "good ones".
So while you may run into some "clicker trained" dogs who won't leave their owner's side, it is much less likely to have that happen with a positively trained dog than it is with a dog trained with aversives. Aversives will shut down drive. Motivational training, if done right, should BUILD drive. If a dog has truly been trained with positive reinforcement and not aversives, then it's unlikely that the training has anything to do with it not responding to bitework. The dog may very well not have the drives for it anyway .. or the trainer wasn't as positive as they say (or you assumed).
If a dog is capable of learning, it's capable of learning by reinforcement methods. What I've found is that people are confused as to what reward based training is. It isn't a matter of bribing with a treat. It isn't a matter of giving treats willy-nilly for every behavior. It's a structured, thought-out, solid way of training that requires some knowledge (as all training should). I see so many people tossing treats at their dogs, marking behaviors at the wrong time (therefore marking the wrong behavior) and then proclaiming "reward training doesn't work!" when it is 100% their fault it isn't working.
Done right, reward training works. Sometimes, for whatever reason, there may be a reason when an aversive is used. But all basic behaviors can be taught using rewards.
By the way, Trick (my first mostly positive trained dog) earned her AKC CD in one weekend (three trials), with a final score of 197. She earned her CKC CD in one weekend (three trials), with a final score of 196.5 (and it was 96 degrees out and MISERABLY hot even inside). She earned all her rally trials and never flunked once - and even earned a perfect 100. Not bad for a dog who never wore a corrective collar in training ..
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
S
I give up. I came on here to ask about prong collars and what you all thought. I used one and found out what I thought. I now know what you all think. Great, fine and dandy. What I don't need is people telling me the sports I SHOULD NOT BE DOING WITH MY DOG. I did not ask for your opinion on that nor do I care to hear it.
Yes, I am all for the bullys. But I see no reason whatsoever why I cannot compete in a bitesport with him. I guess its just a shepherd thing (or for every other breed but the bullys). Sounds a bit prejudice to me.
I fully understand the stigma behind these dogs. No one needs to explain it to me of all people. A dog competing and attacking a bite suit has NOTHING to do with his everyday friendlyness to anyone else. Attacking that bite suit is fun for them, not anything else. I suppose I shouldn't use a flirt pole with him either cause then people might see my dog thrashing a tea towel attached to a pole.
Yes, I am all for the bullys. But I see no reason whatsoever why I cannot compete in a bitesport with him. I guess its just a shepherd thing (or for every other breed but the bullys). Sounds a bit prejudice to me.
I fully understand the stigma behind these dogs. No one needs to explain it to me of all people. A dog competing and attacking a bite suit has NOTHING to do with his everyday friendlyness to anyone else. Attacking that bite suit is fun for them, not anything else. I suppose I shouldn't use a flirt pole with him either cause then people might see my dog thrashing a tea towel attached to a pole.
Ummm, I still don't notice anyone telling you that you shouldn't be doing bitesport with Magnus. People are just saying that they personally would not do that. There's a difference.
For the record, bitesport IS prejudiced towards certain breeds. I wanted to get into it with my Border Collie and I was turned down by the clubs here because, according to them, Border Collies can't do bitesport. And that was all I heard about it, no explanation as to why. I don't know a thing about bitesport but he has loads of drive to spare and would probably have a blast with it, but I wasn't even allowed to come out to visit the premesis.
Anyway, it's just MY opinion that seeing a dog attacking a person in a suit or attacking a sleeve gives non-dog people the impression that the dog is human-aggressive. You don't need to go on about the differences, I know the differences. But those people don't know the drives behind the dog's behavior so they assume it's behaving aggressively towards the person, and not just grabbing on and having a thrilling game of full-body tug.
For the record, bitesport IS prejudiced towards certain breeds. I wanted to get into it with my Border Collie and I was turned down by the clubs here because, according to them, Border Collies can't do bitesport. And that was all I heard about it, no explanation as to why. I don't know a thing about bitesport but he has loads of drive to spare and would probably have a blast with it, but I wasn't even allowed to come out to visit the premesis.
Anyway, it's just MY opinion that seeing a dog attacking a person in a suit or attacking a sleeve gives non-dog people the impression that the dog is human-aggressive. You don't need to go on about the differences, I know the differences. But those people don't know the drives behind the dog's behavior so they assume it's behaving aggressively towards the person, and not just grabbing on and having a thrilling game of full-body tug.
You're relatively new here. I don't know if you've ever been on any other forums, but I'll tell you a little secret. If you don't want to hear opinions, don't post. There's hardly any way around it because it's the very essence of a forum, especially one like a dog forum where there are a vast number of diverse opinions. If you don't want people to know or write about what you're doing, don't tell.
Good post Melanie. That is so true and obvious to me that by using positive reinforcement methods builds drive. Your post was interesting!
S
Ummm, I still don't notice anyone telling you that you shouldn't be doing bitesport with Magnus. People are just saying that they personally would not do that. There's a difference.
For the record, bitesport IS prejudiced towards certain breeds. I wanted to get into it with my Border Collie and I was turned down by the clubs here because, according to them, Border Collies can't do bitesport. And that was all I heard about it, no explanation as to why. I don't know a thing about bitesport but he has loads of drive to spare and would probably have a blast with it, but I wasn't even allowed to come out to visit the premesis.
That is too bad. The people that I am training with seem to be fine with any breed.
Anyway, it's just MY opinion that seeing a dog attacking a person in a suit or attacking a sleeve gives non-dog people the impression that the dog is human-aggressive. You don't need to go on about the differences, I know the differences. But those people don't know the drives behind the dog's behavior so they assume it's behaving aggressively towards the person, and not just grabbing on and having a thrilling game of full-body tug.
For the record, bitesport IS prejudiced towards certain breeds. I wanted to get into it with my Border Collie and I was turned down by the clubs here because, according to them, Border Collies can't do bitesport. And that was all I heard about it, no explanation as to why. I don't know a thing about bitesport but he has loads of drive to spare and would probably have a blast with it, but I wasn't even allowed to come out to visit the premesis.
That is too bad. The people that I am training with seem to be fine with any breed.
Anyway, it's just MY opinion that seeing a dog attacking a person in a suit or attacking a sleeve gives non-dog people the impression that the dog is human-aggressive. You don't need to go on about the differences, I know the differences. But those people don't know the drives behind the dog's behavior so they assume it's behaving aggressively towards the person, and not just grabbing on and having a thrilling game of full-body tug.
My concern is this - you used the prong to TEACH a behavior - you didn't u se a prong to proof something or use it to correct the dog when breaking - you use the prong to teach your dog to lay down? HOw effective is that - using an aversive TO get the dog to lay down?
If you cannot manage to train a GREEN DOG for FR without a prong, then I am concerned. Your dog is supposed to be working in drive and is supposed to be excited to work - if you cannot get that drive and the behaviors you need WITHOUT A PRONG on your FIRST DAY there, then your dog shouldn't be doing FR or you shouldn't be doing it with that club.
My dog has worked with people working at high levels in bite sport - and my dog was on a flat collar or his martingale for most of it (a harness for bite work). Do you know what TOOLS I had? Cookies (for obedience and tracking) and a BALL. We worked his obedience with a BALL. We didn't force him into position, we didn't correct him.
Your dog doens't understand what is going on PERIOD right now - if you cannot communicate to him what is expected without a prong, then you need to find a better trainer. His first day at FR he gets a prong put on him?
If you cannot manage to train a GREEN DOG for FR without a prong, then I am concerned. Your dog is supposed to be working in drive and is supposed to be excited to work - if you cannot get that drive and the behaviors you need WITHOUT A PRONG on your FIRST DAY there, then your dog shouldn't be doing FR or you shouldn't be doing it with that club.
My dog has worked with people working at high levels in bite sport - and my dog was on a flat collar or his martingale for most of it (a harness for bite work). Do you know what TOOLS I had? Cookies (for obedience and tracking) and a BALL. We worked his obedience with a BALL. We didn't force him into position, we didn't correct him.
Your dog doens't understand what is going on PERIOD right now - if you cannot communicate to him what is expected without a prong, then you need to find a better trainer. His first day at FR he gets a prong put on him?
I'm concerned too. My first doberman was a damned dominant dog - one of the few truely dominant dogs I think are out there. ANd literally for the 8 months I had him, he didn't do a single down. I eventually got him with cookies luring him, down if I would go all the way to the ground WITH him. Then I got out a clicker, and in 10 minutes I had a perfect sphynx down, enthusiastic and PERFECT each time. In fact, at the very first rally trial on the very first day it was an AKC approved sport, we were the first people in the ring - and the judge commented to me later that day that we were one of TWO PEOPLE that entire day, that had a REAL moving down.
That dobe did work with a prong collar occassionally, and I used an e-collar for recalls with him. But his main training tools? A clicker and string cheese. Got me my first title on a dog taht everyone said should have been euthanized...
That dobe did work with a prong collar occassionally, and I used an e-collar for recalls with him. But his main training tools? A clicker and string cheese. Got me my first title on a dog taht everyone said should have been euthanized...
And silly me - you think you're going to get happy attentive heeling through a prong?
Seems to me this dog is being fast rtacked - what basics does he have on him, where did he come from, and what training has he already had?
post #93 by RD is really a great post - the one where she talks about fear, and if your dog is working for fear or for you - my dog has worn a prong collar and he HAS been corrected on it - and it doesn't stop him from making mistakes. He does NOT fear the collar, and he does not fear me. When he gives me amazing heads up heeling (heeling that my trainer says when he is on, is akin to an OTCH dog, in her opinion - we just need to capture that and get it ALL the time!) not because he will get corrected if he doesnt - he does it because ITS THE MOST REWARDING THING MY DOG CAN DO. great heeling means GREAT TUGGING, great heeling means GREAT BIG HOT DOG JACKPOTS, great heeling means HEAVY DUTY FETCH.
my dog works for me because he gets awesome pay offs. he works for me because i am fun, and doing this stuff with me is the most rewarding thing he can do in his life. id rather my dog worked for a tug on the leash afterwards, jum,ping up and playing with me, rather than for fear that i am going to hurt him. believe me, ive seen and trained with those types of trainers - and their dogs show it in the ring. their dogs have their ears back, they pant out of stress, they avoid the trainer, and they are constnatly living in fear that they will get a correction for being wrong.
my dog? he walks in the ring like he owns it. he drives me to heel. he forces himself into heel position and says - MOM MOVE WE ARE DOING HEELING I WANT A REWARD. my dog fights me to maintain eye contact.
my dog wants to work. and i love it.
agreed too, RD. Fastracking this dog is scary.
If this dog has already had the basics on him, then it shouldn't be a problem. Even if I didn't know the words I train my dog with (and they are varied in languages, since I want his commands to be things the other dogs in the house DO NOT know), I could get those behaviors easily as a new person handling him, because he Offers them repeatedly. IF your dog had foundations already done on him (by whom?) why can't you capture those basics? a reward comes up for my dog - food, ball, tug, toy, or simply something he wants - and he starts offering me things like crazy. down, sit, attention, puts himself in heel position, backing up, you name it- he does stuff to get what he wants.
Down is the most important command in ANY Dog - it can save a life. It's more than jsut something needed for competition. Which is why I train it to be a stickin gbehavior the dog loves to do.
Seems to me this dog is being fast rtacked - what basics does he have on him, where did he come from, and what training has he already had?
post #93 by RD is really a great post - the one where she talks about fear, and if your dog is working for fear or for you - my dog has worn a prong collar and he HAS been corrected on it - and it doesn't stop him from making mistakes. He does NOT fear the collar, and he does not fear me. When he gives me amazing heads up heeling (heeling that my trainer says when he is on, is akin to an OTCH dog, in her opinion - we just need to capture that and get it ALL the time!) not because he will get corrected if he doesnt - he does it because ITS THE MOST REWARDING THING MY DOG CAN DO. great heeling means GREAT TUGGING, great heeling means GREAT BIG HOT DOG JACKPOTS, great heeling means HEAVY DUTY FETCH.
my dog works for me because he gets awesome pay offs. he works for me because i am fun, and doing this stuff with me is the most rewarding thing he can do in his life. id rather my dog worked for a tug on the leash afterwards, jum,ping up and playing with me, rather than for fear that i am going to hurt him. believe me, ive seen and trained with those types of trainers - and their dogs show it in the ring. their dogs have their ears back, they pant out of stress, they avoid the trainer, and they are constnatly living in fear that they will get a correction for being wrong.
my dog? he walks in the ring like he owns it. he drives me to heel. he forces himself into heel position and says - MOM MOVE WE ARE DOING HEELING I WANT A REWARD. my dog fights me to maintain eye contact.
my dog wants to work. and i love it.
agreed too, RD. Fastracking this dog is scary.
If this dog has already had the basics on him, then it shouldn't be a problem. Even if I didn't know the words I train my dog with (and they are varied in languages, since I want his commands to be things the other dogs in the house DO NOT know), I could get those behaviors easily as a new person handling him, because he Offers them repeatedly. IF your dog had foundations already done on him (by whom?) why can't you capture those basics? a reward comes up for my dog - food, ball, tug, toy, or simply something he wants - and he starts offering me things like crazy. down, sit, attention, puts himself in heel position, backing up, you name it- he does stuff to get what he wants.
Down is the most important command in ANY Dog - it can save a life. It's more than jsut something needed for competition. Which is why I train it to be a stickin gbehavior the dog loves to do.
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Hey Savethebullies
I've been reading this thread for a while and thought I'd post.
I will start off with the prong ... I use the prong collar, and I like it better that a lot of equipment. If used correctly it can be a very effective tool. However, when beginging obedience (or starting any training for that matter) there a set of "rules" that those who use adversives follow. The first period in training - the learning phase - should be nothing but positive. The dog doesn't know what is being asked of him or her, and therefore shouldn't be corrected for mistakes if it doesn't fully understand the concept. Once the dog has fully grasped the concepts, you can, if you wish, add corrections (the correction phase) if you are comfortable with this type of trainning, and from there you move to the proofing phase (ie. distraction training).
I understand where your frustrations are coming from, I've had very stubborn and high strung dogs to deal with, but the most I've ever used to "teach" them was my hand, either guiding their legs to the position, or giving them a little push from on top while guiding them down with a treat (this doesn't work on a lot of dogs as they resist the force, but if done gently can produce results). Yes, what you have done with the prong has worked, and yes adversives can teach as well as positive motivation (IE. Doberkim using the E-collar for recalls), however, depending on the sensitivly of the dog, may produce results that are undesirable tempermentally. However, if you have a fairly stable dog, you can get away with it. I just hope that if you come to another "wall" in your training, that perhaps you try out some other methods first before "teaching" with the prong ... I'm sure that there is something that will get your dogs attention and motivate him.
My concern here would be that you have a high strung dog who could be hyperactive, and needs more "attention" training before you progress with FR and obedience. It also sounds like he really hasn't been proofed enough to bring him out to a field to train. In a quiet room, with no distractions, teach the "look at me" command. Start off showing the treat right to him then bringing it to you face as you say the command. Increase the length of time that he needs to hold the "look" - reward from your face (even have the treat in your mouth and drop if to his), not your pocket. When he gets good, move to more distraction, then more working your way up gradually, when he gets really good (underdistraction), phase out the treats. This can be done with a toy as well. Dogs in these types of sports really need good handler attention, and this could help greatly with your attention problems that you are having. I would also go back to basics with the "down" command. Try again, under absolutely no distraction, and working slowly up as you see progress. I realize that he can do it at home, but if he can't do it in the field, there is a missing link somewhere here, hence going back to basics to go over the training and complete what was missing.
Have you tried different motivators? Instead of treats use a ball, a frisbee, a tug rag something that gets him excited (I'm sorry if you've mentioned this already ... its been a while since I read the begining of the thread).
You really need to get him excited about you, and not what's around him, so if you can use a toy as a motivator, don't throw it as a reward, but rather, let him tug on it. For my dogs, a toy reward is the ultimate, and produces major intensity, and builds up extreme drive. Toys can be extremely valuable tools in these kinds of sports.
Overall, I hope you're having fun with the training, keep us updated on your progress. hope this helps a bit ... GOOD LUCK!!
EDIT:
Just a thought, can you pinpoint exactly what is distracting him and use that to your advantage?
I've been reading this thread for a while and thought I'd post.
I will start off with the prong ... I use the prong collar, and I like it better that a lot of equipment. If used correctly it can be a very effective tool. However, when beginging obedience (or starting any training for that matter) there a set of "rules" that those who use adversives follow. The first period in training - the learning phase - should be nothing but positive. The dog doesn't know what is being asked of him or her, and therefore shouldn't be corrected for mistakes if it doesn't fully understand the concept. Once the dog has fully grasped the concepts, you can, if you wish, add corrections (the correction phase) if you are comfortable with this type of trainning, and from there you move to the proofing phase (ie. distraction training).
I understand where your frustrations are coming from, I've had very stubborn and high strung dogs to deal with, but the most I've ever used to "teach" them was my hand, either guiding their legs to the position, or giving them a little push from on top while guiding them down with a treat (this doesn't work on a lot of dogs as they resist the force, but if done gently can produce results). Yes, what you have done with the prong has worked, and yes adversives can teach as well as positive motivation (IE. Doberkim using the E-collar for recalls), however, depending on the sensitivly of the dog, may produce results that are undesirable tempermentally. However, if you have a fairly stable dog, you can get away with it. I just hope that if you come to another "wall" in your training, that perhaps you try out some other methods first before "teaching" with the prong ... I'm sure that there is something that will get your dogs attention and motivate him.
My concern here would be that you have a high strung dog who could be hyperactive, and needs more "attention" training before you progress with FR and obedience. It also sounds like he really hasn't been proofed enough to bring him out to a field to train. In a quiet room, with no distractions, teach the "look at me" command. Start off showing the treat right to him then bringing it to you face as you say the command. Increase the length of time that he needs to hold the "look" - reward from your face (even have the treat in your mouth and drop if to his), not your pocket. When he gets good, move to more distraction, then more working your way up gradually, when he gets really good (underdistraction), phase out the treats. This can be done with a toy as well. Dogs in these types of sports really need good handler attention, and this could help greatly with your attention problems that you are having. I would also go back to basics with the "down" command. Try again, under absolutely no distraction, and working slowly up as you see progress. I realize that he can do it at home, but if he can't do it in the field, there is a missing link somewhere here, hence going back to basics to go over the training and complete what was missing.
Have you tried different motivators? Instead of treats use a ball, a frisbee, a tug rag something that gets him excited (I'm sorry if you've mentioned this already ... its been a while since I read the begining of the thread).
You really need to get him excited about you, and not what's around him, so if you can use a toy as a motivator, don't throw it as a reward, but rather, let him tug on it. For my dogs, a toy reward is the ultimate, and produces major intensity, and builds up extreme drive. Toys can be extremely valuable tools in these kinds of sports.
Overall, I hope you're having fun with the training, keep us updated on your progress. hope this helps a bit ... GOOD LUCK!!
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Just a thought, can you pinpoint exactly what is distracting him and use that to your advantage?
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Ahh, I was going to ask, and then just assumed - sorry about that ... should have asked. I know some people use them to train initially, which would have been the same as using the prong to teach down - so excuse the example on my post - using them to proof can greatly improve an already learned recall command. Again, sorry about assuming.
Personally, I would never use an aversive to proof anything. I've got a dog who has a dynamite recall, heel, backward heel, long down stay with me out of sight, a snappy drop when in mid chase of a running animal. He has drive and exuberance. I'd never dream of punishing him in association with doing any of those things, not so much as a harsh word other than a no reward marker.
Dogs learn by association. When you introduce aversives in association with learning and improving skills, you undermine what you're trying to achieve....momentum, drive and the desire to work IMO.
You can sharpen skills the same way you get them in the first place, by motivating and rewarding... shaping, capturing, luring. Using reward and motivation and then switching to pain and avoidance defeats the purpose of the reward. The dog's brain is switching from working for reward to working to avoid. It's so much better to have the dog's mind keeping on the same track.
In addition, associating pain with learing a skill is a sure fire way to ruin a dog's drive to work....as in using a prong collar to teach a down.
Dogs learn by association. When you introduce aversives in association with learning and improving skills, you undermine what you're trying to achieve....momentum, drive and the desire to work IMO.
You can sharpen skills the same way you get them in the first place, by motivating and rewarding... shaping, capturing, luring. Using reward and motivation and then switching to pain and avoidance defeats the purpose of the reward. The dog's brain is switching from working for reward to working to avoid. It's so much better to have the dog's mind keeping on the same track.
In addition, associating pain with learing a skill is a sure fire way to ruin a dog's drive to work....as in using a prong collar to teach a down.
Carrie, we are going to have to agree to disagree, we've had this discussion in a variety of threads on a variety of boards. You started with a young pup, I started with a 4 year old dog with a bite history. it was not an option, nor was it possible to risk, him disobeying me for a recall. This wasn't training for fast recalls, perfect fronts, exuberance in the ring. This was plain and simple, my dog could not risk blowing me off in a situation in which a bite COULD occur - even if I tried my best to never put him in that situation. You have not dealt with, lived with, or trained, a dog like Bowie. Bowie came to me in a situation where I could not always WAIT for him to make the right decision, and in fact, I had proof that if allowed, he could CLEARLY MAKE THE WRONG ONE. His competition training was done with a clicker, he never even wore a collar! I did not teach him behaviors with aversives, I did not punish him unfairly, and I rewarded him handsomely when he obeyed me, and I gave me many opportunities to obey me happily without any stimulation from the electronic collar, and 99% of the times he never needed anything. But the only way that dog could be reliably off leash for my own peace of mind, was with an electronic collar. He was never off leash around other people and other animals, but when in a fenced in area (yes, even a dog park completely fenced in and totally alone), I needed to ensure that I had a 100% chance of getting that dog to come back to me the SECOND I needed him back - or other people could be at risk. Did he feel some discomfort from the collar? I am sure - there was a slight bit of discomfort when I used it on myself, not unbearable. I know he felt it because he twitched an ear. However, I am happy with the decision I made to use it on him, as it granted him a little bit more freedom than he would ever have had otherwise, and I consider it the responsible decision in his case. ANd let us be clear - he was trained on it for 2 sessions, and I rarely used it afterwards. I have had multiple dogs besides him, and none of them have needed or required the electronic collar, though I still have it. Rah has only so-so recalls, and they are still a work in progress - I have not put an e-collar on him, though I know I could have results in 2 days. His recalls are not a matter of his own life and death the way it was with Bowie - Bowie had a bite history and a lawsuit. One more bite and he would have been euthanized, plain and simple. Bowie was not a failure of groundwork or basic obedience- Bowie was a failure of someone else before me, that I had to clean up. I had 99% without the collar, but I could not risk that last 1%. The collar gave me that peace of mind.