Breed variation

This is a curiosity because I get these questions quite a bit in real life and then online too. Everyone is always really polite so I'm not annoyed or mad or anything like that at all but merely curious.

I get a lot of questions about why my dogs look so different from each other and if one is 'to standard' and if the other is not. To me, yeah they all look like individuals and there are some variations in the finer details of their build (Beau is stockier whereas Mia is very fine featured). A lot can be accounted for by lines and then imo gender. The standard does allow for some variation especially among head type. but I see similar variation in a lot of breeds and I see much more in some breeds like BCs or GSDs.

To me, my shelties were so much more varied. Rosie was 35 lbs and Trey was 18. But even just between Nikki and Trey, they looked a lot more different to me than the papillons do. But I never got asked which one was 'correct' for the breed.

Do y'all with multiples of the same breed get asked that?

chazsignew by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr

Occasionally it happens. IMO the papillon has a pretty wide standard and you see that variation quite a bit in our show champions across the country.

Bodie is within standard by just a breath. 12lbs currently and 10 3/4" He does look different than yours but decidedly papillon and within standard.



Vinnie is on the low end of the scale for FCI (actually I think he's just under their min weight) but no one in the breed cares about low end of weight especially on males and is a world of difference away from Bodie but again, absolutely papillon within standard even with small pointy ears IMO.



The rules are pretty simple. A patch over each eye and ear and under 11 or 12 inches depending on the registry. Everything else is open to variation.

A lady was admiring Kaia last week and couldn't believe she was pure borzoi. lol. Apparently her friend has three borzois and they have a very different type than her. We get major variations in coat (from tight curls to loooong silky, to sparse coat, etc.) and major variations in heads, build, substance, etc. A lot of them are within standard too.

I like to see a lot of variation within a breed. To me it says there's still a healthy gene pool.

Well, my Chows have different coat types, so if people manage to get that they're both Chows, they usually ask if we shaved Goose.

To be honest as far as papillons go, I think our set 'matches' quite well. LOL Summer is the biggest at 10 3/4ths inches. but none of ours are teeny tiny.

One, I think people expect that all dogs of the same breed, particularly if they're breed standard but even if they're not, are going to look pretty much identical. People are constantly giving me chihuahua stuff (notepads, charms, calendars, etc.) saying that the dog on the picture looks *EXACTLY* like Luna. When actually the dog looks nothing like Luna, Luna's not even within breed standard for a chihuahua. It's literally not until you put two dogs side by side that people realize that they do in fact look a bit different.

Also, I think people see more similarities in dogs of the same color, than in dogs of different color. That could be why people think your papillons - who are different colors - look drastically different, while your shelties - which I believe were all sables? - look very much the same. All that chihuahua stuff that people give me? At least the chihuahuas are usually the same color as Luna, even if that's pretty much their only similarity.

I don't have multiple dogs/breeds and I'm not knowledgable enough to know what is considered standard for a lot of breeds. But with your dogs I don't think they all look that different. I mean yes they are different enough to tell apart but I don't think they are different enough to say one is standard and another is way off.

The only breed I see huge variances in is labs but that may just be me.

There's a lot of breed variation in Sibes, although the majority of registered Sibes are all from show lines regardless. Some are tall and lean, others are stocky, some are gangly, others are svelte. Some have big ears, some have small ears, some look more Shepherd-y, others have broad skulls. Cat feet, splayed/flat feet. Long legs, short legs. Deep body, short loin, deep loin, narrow chest. Huge size, small size. No limit to color possibilities.

Show type vs racing type is easy to see. Seppala type vs working type is harder to work out. Working type vs racing type is easier to see the difference. Show and Racing can be the two most extreme types. Short, stocky, heavy vs lean, long, tall, willowy. Seppala and working are somewhere in the middle, more classic-looking. Standard might as well be thrown out the window, as it was based off of show stock lines, not the working stock.


I think the ideal is somewhere in the middle, but very few people agree with me. I guess that's where, "different strokes, different folks" come in.

It's all different, a hot political debate within kennel clubs, but I've found there isn't a huge public population that can pick out what is a Sibe, a Alaskan, a Malamute, a Shiba, or an Akita. They can't get the breed right, let alone individuals in the breed! :rofl1:

I would like to know why you guys aren't posting picture to show how they are the same, but different.

I'm more than happy to post pictures! If I can find some royalty-free ones...

-runs off to find some-

I've never heard of anyone having this problem with FCRs unless they have both a black and a liver. People seem to get hung up on color differences more than anything else. If Mira is walking with a black Lab then they are the same breed but she has a long coat. If she is walking with a yellow Lab then they are not the same breed.

Well - with labs you have dogs that are way way WAY out of standard being bred as field labs. Some so much so that I barely recognize them as purebred despite being akc dogs. *shrug* I think a component of this is that relative to other breeds there are SO MANY LABS in this country bred. More niches filled, more variations cropping up.

Enzo is in the standard, but she is not exactly correct type I guess. She's built more along the lines of a GSP or a field dog, upland game possibly than the bigger broader more solid dogs. She's a very solid dog, but she does have a definite "raciness" to her build that is not correct.

And, except for one person who insisted she was a liver GSP, (she's not, but I can see the mistake, but if I say she's a Lab, why wouldn't you believe me? anyway, I digress) everyone knows she's a Labradork.

For those that asked:

racing sibe


Show sibe

Ah, thank you! I was having issues finding good pictures.

And compared to the Seppala dogs from the Markovo line:


(Shango)


(Haakon)


(Ditko)

Zander for fun:



Reds/Coppers(like Zander) only occur in show lines, or lines that have been crossed with show lines. They didn't exist originally in Seppala's stock, it was all black based.


ETA: Here's a good website comparing Show type, standard/working type, and racing type: ClickyClicky

That is a great website. I dig it

I always have people that ask if Zoie and Romeo are the same breed or brother and sister...which is a little odd to me as if they don't know Cattle Dogs I wouldn't think they would consider the two similar. Most people are unfamiliar with red cattle dogs too.

I find cattle dog variation fascinating. The standard calls for a very moderate dog..not too fine, not too heavy boned, not too course, not too lanky. There are some breeders clambering for 'old style' ACDs which seems to be akin to the American Bully stout, usually overweight, thick bone, huge chests, and huge wide heads. I have a huge preference towards a leaner but solid build.

I get asked all the time what Kastle is and also if he's a girl. Most people just ask if Ike is a police dog. They look entirely different from my friend's showline...Overall, I prefer a moderate GSD that is more square in form (not totally square as that is not the standard, but more stocky than lanky). Kastle is a tad small, Ike is too big. Kastle and Nikon have the shape I tend to be drawn to more than Ike and Pan. Kastle is a long-coat which is another variation (I prefer stock coats). I also like a dog with a more powerful chest that looks athletic. We have showed all of these dogs at the same show and the working-line boys never stand a chance against showline and the bigger/stockier more "masculine" the showlines are, they better they do - in my limited experience. I have seen more balanced dogs recently coming out of UKC and the judges actually *look* at Kastle instead of auto-putting him in the back of the pack.

Ike (27" tall and 93 lbs)

Kastle (25.5" tall and 58 lbs)

Nikon (25-26" tall and about 70-75 lbs)

Pan (25-26" tall and about 68-70 lbs)

As far as Cardigans go, both of ours are failed conformation prospects but Eden is *very* feminine and petite where Poppy is very masculine and blocky (mostly in the head shape). They are half-sisters. I get asked all the time if Poppy is a male or the parent.

Eden

Poppy

When Moxiecollies and I go walking together, people always assume Quinn (her harlequin rough collie) is the baby of Kaia (my white spotted tricolor borzoi). :rofl1:

Just for reference:



and this. lol