Im kind Of Thinking about breeding
- Thread starter JennSLK
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I really think you are jumping the gun on this. You are making all these assumptions, but what happens if she does not meet your expectations?
I am not saying this to sound cruel but you sound very new to this whole breeding thing, and I have to be honest I would be very concerned with someone who would place an intact bitch in a household that seems to lack sufficient knowledge.
I am not saying this to sound cruel but you sound very new to this whole breeding thing, and I have to be honest I would be very concerned with someone who would place an intact bitch in a household that seems to lack sufficient knowledge.
R
Jenn, will you be showing this puppy in the US or Canada?
What are your criteria for determining if a dog is breedable?
How many dogs have you pointed or finished? How many Dobes?
The Dobe ring is one of the most cut throat and political of all. It can be hard to finish a very good dog if you don't have the right pro on it.
Puppies are always in iffy thing. Better make sure you understand what is expected if the bitch has trouble finishing, or can't finish, or can't pass health testing.
The entire first litter is a huge price to pay for any bitch. I would NEVER ask for more than one puppy returned from a breeding. After all, that does replace your bitch. I would also never require ANYone to breed a dog they purchased from me. If I want it bred that strongly, I need to keep it myself.
Be very careful you don't get locked into a contract you feel trapped in.
What are your criteria for determining if a dog is breedable?
How many dogs have you pointed or finished? How many Dobes?
The Dobe ring is one of the most cut throat and political of all. It can be hard to finish a very good dog if you don't have the right pro on it.
Puppies are always in iffy thing. Better make sure you understand what is expected if the bitch has trouble finishing, or can't finish, or can't pass health testing.
The entire first litter is a huge price to pay for any bitch. I would NEVER ask for more than one puppy returned from a breeding. After all, that does replace your bitch. I would also never require ANYone to breed a dog they purchased from me. If I want it bred that strongly, I need to keep it myself.
Be very careful you don't get locked into a contract you feel trapped in.
I am in absolute agreement with Redyre about the Doberman ring. I haven't even shown a Doberman before, but even professional handlers that I know are well aware of how difficult, political and cutthroat the Dobe ring is.
Also, Jenn, are you absolutely sure that the bitch you get from Dan will be finishable? If I'm not mistaking this breeder for another Liberty kennels, his dogs, while they are supposedly decent workers, don't have the greatest structure IMHO. Perhaps I am thinking of a different breeder, or the sire and dam are better examples of his dogs than what I have seen previously.
I personally am wary of this "agreement", and I'd be careful if I were you...
Also, Jenn, are you absolutely sure that the bitch you get from Dan will be finishable? If I'm not mistaking this breeder for another Liberty kennels, his dogs, while they are supposedly decent workers, don't have the greatest structure IMHO. Perhaps I am thinking of a different breeder, or the sire and dam are better examples of his dogs than what I have seen previously.
I personally am wary of this "agreement", and I'd be careful if I were you...
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The names I mentioned that you ask "why should you care who I know" are those of many of the founders of the Doberman breed in this country. There are many many more. If you do not know the history of the breed, and the value of these various kennels, then you have no idea of what quality it is possible to achieve in the breed.
In the opinion of many who love the breed, there are no more great Dobes that are truly worthy to be bred. The Dobe has become a Greyhound body with a banana head. No substance, straight fronted, no rear angulation. If you want to know what a Doberman SHOULD look like, get yourself a picture of Ch. Marienberg's Sun Hawk, and one of Ch. Rebar's Delissa Of Aquarius. Blow them up to life size, pin them on your walls or ceiling, and study them for at least 2 hours a day. They represent the closest to perfection the breed has come. Anything less is really not fit to be bred.
And learn what layback of shoulder, turn of stifle, let down on hock, all mean, and what it LOOKS like. Then after a couple of years of intense study, you might be eligible to breed a litter of Dobermans! And I am not exaggerating.......what I have written is the basics required to breed any breed of dog.
In the opinion of many who love the breed, there are no more great Dobes that are truly worthy to be bred. The Dobe has become a Greyhound body with a banana head. No substance, straight fronted, no rear angulation. If you want to know what a Doberman SHOULD look like, get yourself a picture of Ch. Marienberg's Sun Hawk, and one of Ch. Rebar's Delissa Of Aquarius. Blow them up to life size, pin them on your walls or ceiling, and study them for at least 2 hours a day. They represent the closest to perfection the breed has come. Anything less is really not fit to be bred.
And learn what layback of shoulder, turn of stifle, let down on hock, all mean, and what it LOOKS like. Then after a couple of years of intense study, you might be eligible to breed a litter of Dobermans! And I am not exaggerating.......what I have written is the basics required to breed any breed of dog.
R
Gwinny, funny you should mention the disturbing lack of substance in what is supposed to be a WORKING DOG.
On one of my mailing lists today, someone was quoted as having overheard this following convo:
"Would you ever do SchH with that dog"
"No. I would not risk that elegant neck on bite work"
If I were going to get a dobe it would not be one of those elegant show dogs you see out there today. It would be an import with some character and substance.
On one of my mailing lists today, someone was quoted as having overheard this following convo:
"Would you ever do SchH with that dog"
"No. I would not risk that elegant neck on bite work"
If I were going to get a dobe it would not be one of those elegant show dogs you see out there today. It would be an import with some character and substance.
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I found a picture of a young Dobe that is very much the same type as Delissa........ http://kerlins.net/bobbi/Eriador/jazz/peacelitter/navy/
The problem is that Delissa was at her pinnacle back around 1985. Since then the breed went into a steady decline in both head, fronts, substance and angulation.
The problem is that Delissa was at her pinnacle back around 1985. Since then the breed went into a steady decline in both head, fronts, substance and angulation.
Just so I'm clear as to what I'm seeing...today's Dobes are skinnier through the chest, more tucked up, they don't have that bit of breastbone out in front of their upper arms, thinner necks and finer heads? (am I seeing a more defined stop in todays dogs?)
wow, they left their ears really long for being cropped.
wow, they left their ears really long for being cropped.
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Jenn, how many Dobermans has Dan put championships on? I did not yet notice where you reside. If you are in the States, then you can forget about showing the dog with any chance of putting any points on her. Don't know what the point scale is for Dobes these days, but it used to be asinine. And showing Dobes is purely POLITICS. PERIOD.
Reddye.....I looked up a picture of Ch. Rancho Dobe Storm, back from the 40's and 50's. Talk about ELEGANT!!! Shocked the heck out of me!!!
Reddye.....I looked up a picture of Ch. Rancho Dobe Storm, back from the 40's and 50's. Talk about ELEGANT!!! Shocked the heck out of me!!!
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It seems to me that Dobe's brisket used to reach their elbow, that their prosternum used to be more pronounced (that dog Gwinny linked to has a prosternum you could hang a hat on!) and the head has become too refined. Looking at the picture of "Hawk" you can see that there is a definite stop, but the head is thicker from top to bottom, more underjaw.
http://www.vermontel.net/~wysiwyg/sunhawk.html
I have to say, "I like a working dog what looks like a working dog!" I want to see that deep chest, that pronounced front, that "sturdy" and purposeful look.
Most of the Dobes I've seen in the ring look a little too racing hound-ish to me. Very sleek and speedy, but lacking substance.
http://www.vermontel.net/~wysiwyg/sunhawk.html
I have to say, "I like a working dog what looks like a working dog!" I want to see that deep chest, that pronounced front, that "sturdy" and purposeful look.
Most of the Dobes I've seen in the ring look a little too racing hound-ish to me. Very sleek and speedy, but lacking substance.
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I agree the arrangement sounds strange, but I've heard of much much worse!!! And it sounds like the breeder is only recommending breeding if she passes the health exams and achieves her championship. I have an Italian Greyhound that has won some shows already that I bought for show. I paid $1100 for her at 2 1/2 years old.
I live in Canada.
Who are you to say I cant put points on a dobe? You dont know me, or my dog. Yes it's politics but I can still point and championship my dog. I am going to dual regester her and get a AKC AND CKC championship tittles. Yes I am fully aware of $$$
I have no idea how many Ch's he has made. ALOT. He has been doing it for 30yrs.
So untill you see picture of my puppy or a PROPOR picture of her family stacked then dont say or imply that she is an inferior dog.
http://dogster.com/pet_page.php?i=264193&j=t
That is no name's page. The dobe sitting with the beagle is Leia, who is a 7month old cousin to no name. Her mom Daci is Maggie's litter mate. Maggie is no name's mom.
The stacked dog is Leia again. I know not a good job stacking. Her legs are too far forward giving her a funny back, and back end. One of my first times stacking an she was distracted by Emma
The dog with the pups is Maggie. My cammera sucks and the angle's arent good.
I will try to get propor pics of no name's family tree, as well as copies of both parents registrations. I know I should get them when I get no name, I just havent botherd to ask for them yet.
Who are you to say I cant put points on a dobe? You dont know me, or my dog. Yes it's politics but I can still point and championship my dog. I am going to dual regester her and get a AKC AND CKC championship tittles. Yes I am fully aware of $$$
I have no idea how many Ch's he has made. ALOT. He has been doing it for 30yrs.
So untill you see picture of my puppy or a PROPOR picture of her family stacked then dont say or imply that she is an inferior dog.
http://dogster.com/pet_page.php?i=264193&j=t
That is no name's page. The dobe sitting with the beagle is Leia, who is a 7month old cousin to no name. Her mom Daci is Maggie's litter mate. Maggie is no name's mom.
The stacked dog is Leia again. I know not a good job stacking. Her legs are too far forward giving her a funny back, and back end. One of my first times stacking an she was distracted by Emma
The dog with the pups is Maggie. My cammera sucks and the angle's arent good.
I will try to get propor pics of no name's family tree, as well as copies of both parents registrations. I know I should get them when I get no name, I just havent botherd to ask for them yet.
Jenn, I'm not trying to rain on your parade but I know a person who has been in Dobermans for a good 35 years, and she hasn't been able to breeder-owner-handle a dog to its championship in over 10 years. She's got two dogs that are singled out, but more often than not she can't even get 1-2 point wins. Now, if you think you can owner-handle a Dobe and get her singles first, more power to ya, I'm just pointing out that it is very difficult for a novice owner-handler to do anything in the ring; even if your bitch is potentially specials material. I don't even know how easily I will be able to handle my Border collie to his championship, and they are a relatively "easy" breed as far as politics go.
It's your pup and your decision though, I wish you the best of luck! As far as breeding goes, having never bred a litter I can't share any stories, but I would listen to Redyre. She knows what she's talking about
It's your pup and your decision though, I wish you the best of luck! As far as breeding goes, having never bred a litter I can't share any stories, but I would listen to Redyre. She knows what she's talking about
RD thanx for what you said. I know it will be hard. I love the dog shows. Lets say I get a few points on her, but can finish her I'd get a profesional to take over to get her CH. But I want to do everything I can to finish her.
I would like to point out that I am Dan's asistant handler. If he has a conflict in the ring I will take one of his dogs in for him. I have worked with the 3 dogs he has showing right now and I go to handling classes everyday. The show is a small one, so it's a good place to start.
The agreament is that I pay verry little for her, I show her and IF she gets her championship and passes the exams then Dan will get her first litter after she is 2yrs old. After that I can breed her myself IF I want (dont know if I do). There is NO co-ownership involved, just a litter. Of course everything will be in writing.
I would like to point out that I am Dan's asistant handler. If he has a conflict in the ring I will take one of his dogs in for him. I have worked with the 3 dogs he has showing right now and I go to handling classes everyday. The show is a small one, so it's a good place to start.
The agreament is that I pay verry little for her, I show her and IF she gets her championship and passes the exams then Dan will get her first litter after she is 2yrs old. After that I can breed her myself IF I want (dont know if I do). There is NO co-ownership involved, just a litter. Of course everything will be in writing.
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You ask "who am I to say....whatever". Well, let me make it simple for you......I am someone who has learned more about Dobes in the last 3 decades than you will ever know. And why do I say that? Because you will have no great specimens to observe and learn from. And the great people of the breed are now gone---Tommie Jones, Peggy Adamson, Ellen Hoffman. There are still a few around...Rita Sachs of Beltara kennels, Jaima Youngblood (VD Bross) might still be alive and kicking. And the saddest thing is you seem to have done NO research into the breed. The names Brown's, Ahrtal, Beltara, Borong, are not names you even recognize!
I would very strongly urge you to get Anna K. Nicholas book "The Book Of The Doberman Pinscher". It is a beautiful book.....not just great info, but a quality made book! One that just feels good in your hands!
As as example for things you need to learn---just what does a dog that is "straight in front" look like? How about a dog that is not "well let down on hock". If you are not sure, take a look at the dog you have stacked on the dogster page.
Can you maybe put a pedigree online? If you go to Sitstay.com, they have a pedigree form you can fill out FOR FREE (very important fact there, rofl) and then they will send you the code to put it on a webpage.
Saying that Dan has finished lots of dogs is not what I was curious about. I am more nosey about an exact number (+-) and some names.
But even that doesn't prove a lot.....there was a guy around here that bred dogs, and had him some champions, but was still one of the biggest scam artists around, rofl.
You ask us about our breedings and opinions on breeding, yet you are there with Dan and his puppies, and see first hand what is involved. You should be telling US all the little ins and outs (such as always have a bag of M&Ms or two handy while whelping a litter, heheheheh) And about the temperature changes when a bitch goes into labor.
It is wonderful that you are addicted to this breed. But you have hitched your wagon to a shooting star. (expression is "hitch your wagon to a start"--meaning aim high, etc). Many medical experts predict that the breed will become extinct within the next 20 years or so because of all the fatal flaws in the breed. Mainly cardiomyopathy. Has Dan had all of his dogs tested with the Holter (I think that is the name) device?
And of course vWD is easy to avoid----are all of his dogs tested and certified either free or unaffecteds? Are all hips and elbows xrayed? And can YOU afford all of these tests for any puppies you may have to sell? Remember if he takes that first litter and you are listed as breeder, you may have some legal liability for problems the pups later develop--congenital/hereditary defects.
What you have to learn to become truly knowledgeable about this breed is almost impossible to fathom. But......next time you want to blurt out "who do you think you are"---remember it ain't who I THINK I am---it is who I KNOW I am! Rofl.
Many are eager to help.....but it is hard because those totally new to a breed aren't even sure what questions need to be asked. I would suggest you get a copy of the breed standard, and start asking questions from there. Learn the terminology, and what those words LOOK LIKE in the flesh! Learn to fault a dog.....then you will know what to strive for! Again......how can you tell if a dog is straight in front?? If you learn the "points of reference" you can tell in a glance!!!
And who was Ch. Rancho Dobe Storm? Who was Ch. Borong The Warlock? Who was Ch. Graylemor Demetrius? Research, research!!!
I would very strongly urge you to get Anna K. Nicholas book "The Book Of The Doberman Pinscher". It is a beautiful book.....not just great info, but a quality made book! One that just feels good in your hands!
As as example for things you need to learn---just what does a dog that is "straight in front" look like? How about a dog that is not "well let down on hock". If you are not sure, take a look at the dog you have stacked on the dogster page.
Can you maybe put a pedigree online? If you go to Sitstay.com, they have a pedigree form you can fill out FOR FREE (very important fact there, rofl) and then they will send you the code to put it on a webpage.
Saying that Dan has finished lots of dogs is not what I was curious about. I am more nosey about an exact number (+-) and some names.
But even that doesn't prove a lot.....there was a guy around here that bred dogs, and had him some champions, but was still one of the biggest scam artists around, rofl.
You ask us about our breedings and opinions on breeding, yet you are there with Dan and his puppies, and see first hand what is involved. You should be telling US all the little ins and outs (such as always have a bag of M&Ms or two handy while whelping a litter, heheheheh) And about the temperature changes when a bitch goes into labor.
It is wonderful that you are addicted to this breed. But you have hitched your wagon to a shooting star. (expression is "hitch your wagon to a start"--meaning aim high, etc). Many medical experts predict that the breed will become extinct within the next 20 years or so because of all the fatal flaws in the breed. Mainly cardiomyopathy. Has Dan had all of his dogs tested with the Holter (I think that is the name) device?
And of course vWD is easy to avoid----are all of his dogs tested and certified either free or unaffecteds? Are all hips and elbows xrayed? And can YOU afford all of these tests for any puppies you may have to sell? Remember if he takes that first litter and you are listed as breeder, you may have some legal liability for problems the pups later develop--congenital/hereditary defects.
What you have to learn to become truly knowledgeable about this breed is almost impossible to fathom. But......next time you want to blurt out "who do you think you are"---remember it ain't who I THINK I am---it is who I KNOW I am! Rofl.
Many are eager to help.....but it is hard because those totally new to a breed aren't even sure what questions need to be asked. I would suggest you get a copy of the breed standard, and start asking questions from there. Learn the terminology, and what those words LOOK LIKE in the flesh! Learn to fault a dog.....then you will know what to strive for! Again......how can you tell if a dog is straight in front?? If you learn the "points of reference" you can tell in a glance!!!
And who was Ch. Rancho Dobe Storm? Who was Ch. Borong The Warlock? Who was Ch. Graylemor Demetrius? Research, research!!!