Your Definition of Ethics

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JFrick said:
Hey, I apologized. Summit is the one that "stir's the pot" every chance she gets. I was just doing the same to her, nothing more.

I think it's sad that people get worked up so easily on an internet message board.
Perhaps the very fact that you felt you needed to give tit for tat got YOU quite worked up as well!
 

Fran27

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Wiggle Butt said:
This has been an interesting thread.

I'm going to post what I think is ethical for Lab breeders. Most goes for breeders of other breeds too, but some things are specifically for Lab enthusiasts.

My list is very, very long and seems to be always growing or being revised. If I ever breed, I will follow this list. There are more things that I believe are attributed to an ethical breeder, but it is late and I am not remembering everything right now :p

HEALTH:
- Fair or better rating of hips by the OFA (or equal certification from PennHip)
- Normal elbows as determined by OFA
- Clear cardiac test with certification from OFA
- Normal thyroid test with certification from OFA
- Clear eyes from CERF/Optigen/AVCO
- Free of CNM, or if a carrier, bred to a dog free of CNM
- Must be fed a raw diet (not neccessarily to do with ethics, but I won't by from a breeder who feeds kibble)
- Free of vaccinations/minimal vaccinations but agrees to do no vaccines on my pup (again, this has nothing to do with ethics but moreso for my beliefs of canine health)

TEMPERMENT/TRAINING:
- Dogs must have a temperment true to the Labrador breed
- Absolutely no aggression towards anything - animal or human
- Dogs must be in-tune to owners during training sessions
- Dogs must be eager to please
- Dogs must be gentle with children and young/small animals
- Dogs must have an upbeat, over exhuberant attitude towards life
- Dogs should not be wary of strangers

WORKING ABILITY:
- All dogs should be able to work. Titles are not neccessary if you can prove to all buyers that the dog is able to work by having them out in the field with them. If this cannot be done, hunting titles should be obtained.
- A dog should not be bred if they do not have interest in field work. Dogs that had to have the "desire" to work trained into them should not be bred. Period.

CONFORMATION:
- Dogs should stay as true to a Labrador as possible. I do not like to see a 95 tub in the show ring as much as I don't like to see a greyhound-looking Lab in the field. Common sense and general knowledge of the breed standard is all that's needed.
- CH titles and points are great, but dual-purpose Labradors are few and far between, and I would much rather see a Lab that can work vs. a Lab that excels in the breed ring.

OWNER/BREEDER:
- Should not physically abuse dogs - this includes during training sessions
- Should not yell at dogs for punishment except when out of their control (like when one of them ruins an expensive piece of furniture :eek: )
- Should have a gentle but firm hand when giving commands
- Should be/should have been actively involved in rescue work of their breed or of all breeds. There is no exception for this one. Do not add to the population without helping bring it down.
- Must breed their bitches and studs only to dogs/breeders that meet the criteria in this list


And ... good luck to me in ever finding a breeder that meets all of this! This is why I am involved mostly in rescue, so much simpler :p

Great post, although I don't agree about the raw feeding requirement (really hard to feed for a reasonable price in some places) - a good brand of kibble is fine IMO. And I don't understand the part about vaccinations... too many puppies die from parvo IMO. Mind explaining?


savethebulliedbreeds said:
If you have a basket with 10 oranges in it and a "responsible" person adds 10 more does that mean that the basket still only had 10 oranges?

I think not....it has 20. It doesn't matter who the hell put the oranges in the basket.....there is still 20. Get my point. I don't think that there is many people that will argue this fact.
I see your point. The difference is that one way or another, with the actual tendency, if the good guy doesn't put his 10 oranges in there, someone else will... And if you let them do it, you will end up with horrible acid oranges that rot in 2 days, instead of good tasty oranges that will last you a week. So, IMO, it's a good thing that there are still people growing good oranges out there.
 
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savethebulliedbreeds

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Don't get me wrong. Like I said, I have nothing against breeders. I am one myself. But I don't think us sitting here having this discussion a hundred times over or bashing people that come to ask questions is going to help the matter. My only point with the oranges thing is that no matter what, everyone that breeds adds to the problem whether they be "rotten oranges" or "good tasty ones". :D
 
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summitview said:
The Northeast (NY, PA, MA, NH, VT, ME) is where I've been for most of my life, and I've been heavily involved in dogs in the New England area. Your comment might be true of your hometown, but definitely not for most of the NE area.
You left out NJ, which is kind of interesting. It's possible that we're looking at the situation from opposite ends of the Northeast. From my end, there's dense human population, dwindling open space, and a lot less rural attitude (ie, my land, my animals, my guns) than most other regions. I realize this is a geographically minor section of the country, but it's certainly larger than my 'hometown' and since it's rather heavily populated and politically powerful, it's different requirements are not negligible.
 

Fran27

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savethebulliedbreeds said:
Don't get me wrong. Like I said, I have nothing against breeders. I am one myself. But I don't think us sitting here having this discussion a hundred times over or bashing people that come to ask questions is going to help the matter. My only point with the oranges thing is that no matter what, everyone that breeds adds to the problem whether they be "rotten oranges" or "good tasty ones". :D
You forgot one point also... A good breeder will have one, maybe two litters a year... Bad breeders have way more than that.

I think you could say that BYBs put 18 of those oranges in the basket :D

But I see your point :D I just think that quality matters more than numbers sometimes.
 
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savethebulliedbreeds

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Yes, I agree that it is 18 & 2 as compared to the 10 & 10 I said but I was just trying to get my point across. I really like the acid rotten and good tasty orange thing lol. That was cute. :D :p
 

Fran27

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Just figured I would add, before someone tells me I hate mutts and dogs that didn't come from a very good breeder... I just did a comparison between dogs that are healthy and have a good temperament/look according to the standard (the juicy orange) and dogs that are non conform to the standard and might have health issues (the rotten orange). I didn't mean that mutts and 'non perfect' dogs are rotten...
 
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JFrick said:
Glad you cleared that up for me.....:rolleyes: Now I can die a happy man.
Well, prove otherwise and I won't say that again! ;) You were the one going on about greed and money...I told you it wasn't so. Therefore I conclude dog showing is NOT your topic on which to speak intelligently. Sorry :)
 
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savethebulliedbreeds

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Posted By summitview
And just how have I done that?
You sit her and tell everyone to adhere to "the code of ethics" yet in another post you were talking with a girl about a guy that bred dogs that had 3 different breeds in them! And said that he had very nice dogs and that they had a good pedigree etc etc etc. Im pretty sure that the code of ethics doesnt agree with breeding mutts.
 

bubbatd

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To me good breeders have a reason for breeding. Money is not an issue. Now that I have Ollie.... I would love to know his background and how he came to be. He's my 1st " Mutt ".... having no dew claws really makes me wonder. He's definitely mostly Retriever of some type , if not completely . The Poodle on PetFinder I feel was because of his curls.
 

RD

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savethebulliedbreeds said:
You sit her and tell everyone to adhere to "the code of ethics" yet in another post you were talking with a girl about a guy that bred dogs that had 3 different breeds in them! And said that he had very nice dogs and that they had a good pedigree etc etc etc. Im pretty sure that the code of ethics doesnt agree with breeding mutts.
I personally am not entirely against breeding mixed breeds of a certain "type" for a working purpose. Mixed breeds are bred quite often to produce working sheepdogs, for example.

If people breed mixes for a working purpose, do extensive health testing and breed ONLY dogs that are WORKING dogs (not just people breeding their pet mixes "because she *could* work if she had the chance") I still consider them responsible. Would I do it? No.. I think there are enough pure breeds out there to fulfill most needs and I would prefer working towards the improvement of a single breed. However, I don't see a problem with breeding sound working dogs of any breed/mix if the breeder sees to it that all of the puppies are placed in good homes.

jmo
 

bubbatd

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RD... I agree with you to a certain point. That's how we have all our breeds today . Again... I wonder of the purpose of my Ollie's breeding. As a stray with no dew claws .... why ???
 

RD

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I honestly don't see much, if any Poodle in Ollie. It's possible that he was from an "oops" litter or bred for field work, as I would think that they cross certain breds for retrieval work too?

If only rescue dogs could talk, eh?
 
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summitview said:
I left out New Jersey because I have absolutely no experience with that state.
I kind of figured that. In general, though, unless you're talking about some particular agricultural topic, I've always understood 'the northeast' to imply not the rural areas of, say, upstate New York or Vermont or Maine, but the huge, densely populated and influential urban areas of NYC, Philly, Boston, etc.
 

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