Your Definition of Ethics

Saje

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Come on guys there's a lot of good, well-thought info here. We don't need to make it personal!
 

Giny

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savethebulliedbreeds said:
It was a joke.:D :p
I know you were being sarcastic.
In a perfect world, if only ethical breeders where allowed to breed then you wouldn’t have to worry about any dogs being in shelters.
But élasse, this is not a perfect world....so either "you" are the cause of the problem or the solutions to it. :)

"you" doesn't specify any certain person, it's all of us in general. ;)
 

Aussie Red

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tHESE WERE MY THOUGHTS

JFrick said:
No, I don't think that's a huge part of the problem, but it is a part of it, I'll admit that. I think that most dogs in shelters come from accidental breedings that produce unwanted pups. I'm not saying that everyone should breed their dogs, not everyone should, but if someone wants to breed their dog, then it's their choice to do that. I'm just saying that nobody has the right to condem someone for making the choice to breed their dog.

Now on to how eveyone says that health screening is so important....Cancer, Heart Disease, Altzheimers (sp?) all runs in my family, so does that mean I should never have children? This goes back to the greed comment I made about how some want the perfect dog (in their eyes). The perfect dog to me has nothing to do with looks or "breed standards", it's the personality. I understand things like 2 Aussie Merle's can't be bred b/c the pups will more than likely be blind and/or deaf, there are certain circumstances, but that's not health screening, that's general knowledge about a breed.

Regarding mixed breeds. If someone wants to cross one breed with another, it's their choice. If you believe that 2 different breeds should absolutely not be bred, then your also saying that different races of people should not have kids. And that is racism folks....
Most all dogs that are now reconized by the AKC have at one time come from mixes ie. ACD. Many dont know that it has Dalmation in it's background too as well as others. It has been around since 1840 but was only reconized by AKC in 1980. Does that mean that the ones before 1980 were mutts ? lol.
My take is that breeding is ones choice as is what type car we own and so on.Ethical breeders to me are those who dont!!!!!!!!!
 

lakotasong

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casablanca1 said:
Very few people have accidental litters now in the Northeast - the dogs are neutered and besides, they just don't get out.
The Northeast (NY, PA, MA, NH, VT, ME) is where I've been for most of my life, and I've been heavily involved in dogs in the New England area. Your comment might be true of your hometown, but definitely not for most of the NE area.
 

lakotasong

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JFrick said:
Apparently one participant has sunk to the level of name calling.
I don't consider stating that someone "Lacking worldly experience and understanding" name-calling. I used the definition so that they wouldn't bleep the word.
 

lakotasong

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JFrick said:
Hey, I apologized. Summit is the one that "stir's the pot" every chance she gets. I was just doing the same to her, nothing more.

I think it's sad that people get worked up so easily on an internet message board.
I'm not here to stir the pot, I'm here to educate, meet some new folks and learn from others' experiences (a good breeder NEVER stops learning and NEVER thinks they know it all). You don't like what you hear from me, so you say I'm stirring the pot. It's humorous, I've dealt with this before.

And the only ones I see getting worked up are the ones that aren't following set codes of ethics and do not like being told the truth. Old saying: truth hurts.

If you think you've "worked me up," you are sadly mistaken. I am passionate and hold strongly to my beliefs, because I put the welfare of dogs above all else.
 

lakotasong

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I have seen the whole "even responsible breeders add to the overpopulation and take homes away from dogs in shelters" comment a few times and I will now give my two cents on it.

I do not feel the statement is accurate.

Responsible breeders get many inquiries, and often refer people to rescue if they are simply looking for a generic pet.

People that purchase from truly responsible breeders...
a) want a dog with a known temperament/health history so they know the dog will be a sound, healthy dog for their family (children especially).
b) a dog to show or compete with in sports that require a certain work ethic or physical ability that a shelter or rescue dog cannot fulfill.
c) a dog to prove, test and eventually breed to help continue betterment of the breed that they are devoted to.

Responsible breeders sell dogs (pet puppies and show/work prospects) to people that need something specific and something sound.

I do not feel responsible breeders take the homes of shelter dogs.
 

Dani

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These arguments tend to go in circles lol. If we keep it respectful, this thread will be more productive.

For what it's worth, this is my opinion on ethical breeding:

-Have health tests done on dog planned to be bred.

-Dog should pass a temperment test.

-Thorough health guarantee on pups.

-Competition and titles preferable.

-The breeder rescues.

-DOES WHAT IS IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE DOG AND PUPPIES, AND
UNDERSTANDS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF BREEDING.
 
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S

savethebulliedbreeds

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Posted By summitview
I have seen the whole "even responsible breeders add to the overpopulation and take homes away from dogs in shelters" comment a few times and I will now give my two cents on it.

I do not feel the statement is accurate.
How is it not accurate? Anyone who breeds dogs adds to the overpopulation problem and that is a fact. Just because you are responsible about breeding doesn't mean that you don't contribute to the problem. Anyone who doesn't see this is blind.

If you have a basket with 10 oranges in it and a "responsible" person adds 10 more does that mean that the basket still only had 10 oranges?

I think not....it has 20. It doesn't matter who the hell put the oranges in the basket.....there is still 20. Get my point. I don't think that there is many people that will argue this fact.

Not only that but you speak so much about following "the code of ethics" yet you told someone in another forum that this one person breeds great dogs that were mutts? You confuse me to no end.
 

bubbatd

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Let's face it . Dog owners have doubled since I bred my Goldens... At the end of my 40 years of breeding , when I didn't have enough pups to sell, or if they were working " parents" I'd recommend rescue. I was not a BYB! Question me if you want to . I was very proud of my line and of my ethics. In my day , it was through clubs and word of mouth. Practically all my pups were sold before whelping.
 

Wiggle Butt

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This has been an interesting thread.

I'm going to post what I think is ethical for Lab breeders. Most goes for breeders of other breeds too, but some things are specifically for Lab enthusiasts.

My list is very, very long and seems to be always growing or being revised. If I ever breed, I will follow this list. There are more things that I believe are attributed to an ethical breeder, but it is late and I am not remembering everything right now :p

HEALTH:
- Fair or better rating of hips by the OFA (or equal certification from PennHip)
- Normal elbows as determined by OFA
- Clear cardiac test with certification from OFA
- Normal thyroid test with certification from OFA
- Clear eyes from CERF/Optigen/AVCO
- Free of CNM, or if a carrier, bred to a dog free of CNM
- Must be fed a raw diet (not neccessarily to do with ethics, but I won't by from a breeder who feeds kibble)
- Free of vaccinations/minimal vaccinations but agrees to do no vaccines on my pup (again, this has nothing to do with ethics but moreso for my beliefs of canine health)

TEMPERMENT/TRAINING:
- Dogs must have a temperment true to the Labrador breed
- Absolutely no aggression towards anything - animal or human
- Dogs must be in-tune to owners during training sessions
- Dogs must be eager to please
- Dogs must be gentle with children and young/small animals
- Dogs must have an upbeat, over exhuberant attitude towards life
- Dogs should not be wary of strangers

WORKING ABILITY:
- All dogs should be able to work. Titles are not neccessary if you can prove to all buyers that the dog is able to work by having them out in the field with them. If this cannot be done, hunting titles should be obtained.
- A dog should not be bred if they do not have interest in field work. Dogs that had to have the "desire" to work trained into them should not be bred. Period.

CONFORMATION:
- Dogs should stay as true to a Labrador as possible. I do not like to see a 95 tub in the show ring as much as I don't like to see a greyhound-looking Lab in the field. Common sense and general knowledge of the breed standard is all that's needed.
- CH titles and points are great, but dual-purpose Labradors are few and far between, and I would much rather see a Lab that can work vs. a Lab that excels in the breed ring.

OWNER/BREEDER:
- Should not physically abuse dogs - this includes during training sessions
- Should not yell at dogs for punishment except when out of their control (like when one of them ruins an expensive piece of furniture :eek: )
- Should have a gentle but firm hand when giving commands
- Should be/should have been actively involved in rescue work of their breed or of all breeds. There is no exception for this one. Do not add to the population without helping bring it down.
- Must breed their bitches and studs only to dogs/breeders that meet the criteria in this list


And ... good luck to me in ever finding a breeder that meets all of this! This is why I am involved mostly in rescue, so much simpler :p
 
R

RedyreRottweilers

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Wiggle Butt said:
This has been an interesting thread.

I'm going to post what I think is ethical for Lab breeders. Most goes for breeders of other breeds too, but some things are specifically for Lab enthusiasts.

My list is very, very long and seems to be always growing or being revised. If I ever breed, I will follow this list. There are more things that I believe are attributed to an ethical breeder, but it is late and I am not remembering everything right now :p

HEALTH:
- Fair or better rating of hips by the OFA (or equal certification from PennHip)
- Normal elbows as determined by OFA
- Clear cardiac test with certification from OFA
- Normal thyroid test with certification from OFA
- Clear eyes from CERF/Optigen/AVCO
- Free of CNM, or if a carrier, bred to a dog free of CNM
- Must be fed a raw diet (not neccessarily to do with ethics, but I won't by from a breeder who feeds kibble)
- Free of vaccinations/minimal vaccinations but agrees to do no vaccines on my pup (again, this has nothing to do with ethics but moreso for my beliefs of canine health)

TEMPERMENT/TRAINING:
- Dogs must have a temperment true to the Labrador breed
- Absolutely no aggression towards anything - animal or human
- Dogs must be in-tune to owners during training sessions
- Dogs must be eager to please
- Dogs must be gentle with children and young/small animals
- Dogs must have an upbeat, over exhuberant attitude towards life
- Dogs should not be wary of strangers

WORKING ABILITY:
- All dogs should be able to work. Titles are not neccessary if you can prove to all buyers that the dog is able to work by having them out in the field with them. If this cannot be done, hunting titles should be obtained.
- A dog should not be bred if they do not have interest in field work. Dogs that had to have the "desire" to work trained into them should not be bred. Period.

CONFORMATION:
- Dogs should stay as true to a Labrador as possible. I do not like to see a 95 tub in the show ring as much as I don't like to see a greyhound-looking Lab in the field. Common sense and general knowledge of the breed standard is all that's needed.
- CH titles and points are great, but dual-purpose Labradors are few and far between, and I would much rather see a Lab that can work vs. a Lab that excels in the breed ring.

OWNER/BREEDER:
- Should not physically abuse dogs - this includes during training sessions
- Should not yell at dogs for punishment except when out of their control (like when one of them ruins an expensive piece of furniture :eek: )
- Should have a gentle but firm hand when giving commands
- Should be/should have been actively involved in rescue work of their breed or of all breeds. There is no exception for this one. Do not add to the population without helping bring it down.
- Must breed their bitches and studs only to dogs/breeders that meet the criteria in this list


And ... good luck to me in ever finding a breeder that meets all of this! This is why I am involved mostly in rescue, so much simpler :p
What an excellent post.

If I were looking for a Labrador Retriever, you are the sort of breeder I would like to find (or recommend).

Your breed is lucky to have people like you. They are the ones who STEWARD THEIR BREED, and preserve it for the future.

:D
 

Mach1girl

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savethebulliedbreeds said:
How is it not accurate? Anyone who breeds dogs adds to the overpopulation problem and that is a fact. Just because you are responsible about breeding doesn't mean that you don't contribute to the problem. Anyone who doesn't see this is blind.

If you have a basket with 10 oranges in it and a "responsible" person adds 10 more does that mean that the basket still only had 10 oranges?

I think not....it has 20. It doesn't matter who the hell put the oranges in the basket.....there is still 20. Get my point. I don't think that there is many people that will argue this fact.

Not only that but you speak so much about following "the code of ethics" yet you told someone in another forum that this one person breeds great dogs that were mutts? You confuse me to no end.
Dont ya just love it when they do this??? NOT practice what they preach??
 
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JFrick said:
So I guess the dogs wake up one day and say "I think I'll start showing myself". Is there not money involved with dog shows? Greed goes with anything involving money. Not to mention a blue ribbon.....



In my opinion, yes it is GREED......Your right, I know nothing, nothing at all.:rolleyes:
Don't be silly. Of course WE show the dogs...but the dogs win the points/ribbons/kudos on their own merits when shown so as to demonstrate their best points. Oh yeah...there's money involved alright....hundreds in gas, thousands in show supplies, hundreds in entry fees, hundreds in motel rooms, thousands in breeding and raising a litter properly...........gee, no wonder I'm broke ;)

Told you you know nothing about this.
 
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JFrick said:
Please re-read what I posted. My comment about that was how people will spend over a thousand dollars on a purebred dog just so they can have a purebred. To these people, mutts are not good enough to adopt. Instead they have to have a "show quality" dog.
That's not the way your post read.

And no, I don't want a mutt. I want my chosen breed. I would not be a candidate for a mutt or shelter dog; therefore when I go and buy a dog from a responsible breeder (or breed one myself), the shelter dog is not losing a home in ME...because I was not going there to begin with! If everyone thought like you did it would be a very sad world because we would no longer have the wonderful breeds that we do.

I am sorry for the dogs that land in shelters and that many of them do not get out...it is very sad and tragic; but those of us who choose well-bred purebred dogs should not be faulted for this. I always tell people that if they just want a companion for the family, then they should consider a shelter or rescue dog first. Not everyone needs a purebred puppy; some of us, however, live and breathe to maintain a breed we adore.
 
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Giny said:
I don’t breed, never did and never plan too. Just to make this clear.

I personally don’t think breeding should stop, but I do think it should be a lot harder to breed two dogs then just mating bitch X to stud X. Each and every puppy should be plan way ahead of time, doing whatever it takes to prove your mating pair are breed worthy.

-Titling
-Genetic testing
-Having a one or two GREAT mentors
-Great grasp and understanding of your breed
-Being prepared financially, mentally, knowledgably
-Having a list of owner prospects before your litter is planed
-Willing to take back every puppy that leaves your home if new owners are unable to keep them. (keeping track of all of them their entire life)
-Be part of a rescue program

These are but a few things I can think of. If everyone had a strict belief in their breeding program then there wouldn’t be a overpopulation of dogs as we see today.
Those of us who are already doing these things agree with you. However I don't believe that the government should get involved to this extent.
 
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MomOf7 said:
I agree completely.
I had a female I paid 1200 for that ended up with retinal folds. She can see fine and probably wont effect her till she is much much older like 7 years old or more. I could have bred her anyways and had all the pups eyes tested before the left home but being responsible I gave her to another kennel where she is being trained then sold as a gun dog. The trainer is a friend of mine and is so impressed with her abilities that he got her eyes re checked to make sure.
Bottom line you should never take the chance on breeding a dog that cannot pass its certifications. There are so many other dogs to consider to breed to that will and have passed thier certifications. Why take the chance if you dont have to?
What if and heaven forbid you pass down the bad traits that could have been avoided better by not breeding a dog effected.


Greed? Let me tell you if I can break even on a litter I am happy.
A puppy is only worth what someone will pay for it. Period.
I dont care about making money...if I do great! If I dont thats ok too.
Breeding and competing with my dogs is a passion. I love taking my dogs to the fields and training them and watching them work with me. The competitions to me are fun...stressful at times but fun! I just got back from a 3 day test we spent around $500. Next weekend I have another one. Then the weekend after that..so on and so forth. Its great to get out with like minded folks, talk dogs, and share experiences. There are a great number of people who do competitions and do not breed.
Dont knock it untill you learn more and try it. There is no greater feeling then having a dog who does great work and produces pups that are great workers and watching them grow and learn.

JFrick,
How asinine is that? To post on a topic that is a passionate one only to stir the pot. Tisk tisk! If thats how you get your enjoyment how sad is that?
NO one here knows everything. Most people who breed have goals and standards. Not everyone shares the same goals and standards. If we all were the same how boring would this world be? I like threads like this when they are discussed like adults and not like children. Its interesting to see the difference in goals and standards each person has.


I think I covered what I read and wanted to comment on.
Well said!! Yes, I agree about JFrick's postings. How self-righteous, haughty, and a waste of everyone's time. How ridiculous to get one's kicks that way. Tsk, tsk is right.
 

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