Who else feeds RAW?

[BabyDane]

perhaps you can come clean my carpets and tell me why my dogs couldn't?

Probably incorrect diet structure and ratios. Adding in too many different meats in too quickly. To adjust to a raw diet completely takes 2-3 months or longer for some dogs. People try and bite the bullet adding in all kinds of things in the beginning before their dog's system can actually handle the variety.

No. It is a correct statement for my dog. I have to say I do not really appreciate my feeding regimen being torn apart by people who think they know my dogs better than I do. This is why I often do not often indulge in raw diet threads because I do not want to be a party to scaring potential raw feeders away from feeding raw by saying it must be done one way. I only even posted an additional post after my op to help others see that feeding raw differs greatly and it's okay. There is no one way and no one diet that works for every dog. Many dogs can handle raw diets and many can not due to many various health reasons/issues. Some people who feed raw also feed fruits and veggies with nutritional and holistic health benefits regardless of what people that oppose such acts say. That's just the way it is. You either have to admit people know their dogs best and feed what it is appropriate for their lifestyles or save the preaching for the choir.

I would have to know what you did to feed a raw diet to actually tear it apart, and see where something went wrong. But to see that someone's dog didn't do well on a raw diet of meats, bones and organs is like someone telling me that their horse cannot do well on a diet of grass.

And I don't presume to know your dog and its personality...but it is a member of the species Canis lupus familiaris which means that it will thrive on a diet of meat, bones and organs and has the same physiological needs as any other member of the species. That is a fact. But a PMR diet has its guidelines and that must be applied. Of course some tweaking must also be done to cater to an individual dogs needs.

Maybe there are certain varieties of meats that don't particularly agree with your dog. Maybe your dog has an extra sensitive stomach, but usually those are the dogs that do better on raw considering kibble has a huge ingredient list.

I'm not bashing you or your way of feeding. Just clarifying about PMR diets. No reason to get defensive. If anything, maybe learn from the experience as to why a raw diet didn't work.

 

[vanillasugar]

Probably incorrect diet structure and ratios. Adding in too many different meats in too quickly. To adjust to a raw diet completely takes 2-3 months or longer for some dogs. People try and bite the bullet adding in all kinds of things in the beginning before their dog's system can actually handle the variety.



I would have to know what you did to feed a raw diet to actually tear it apart, and see where something went wrong. But to see that someone's dog didn't do well on a raw diet of meats, bones and organs is like someone telling me that their horse cannot do well on a diet of grass.

And I don't presume to know your dog and its personality...but it is a member of the species Canis lupus familiaris which means that it will thrive on a diet of meat, bones and organs and has the same physiological needs as any other member of the species. That is a fact. But a PMR diet has its guidelines and that must be applied. Of course some tweaking must also be done to cater to an individual dogs needs.

Maybe there are certain varieties of meats that don't particularly agree with your dog. Maybe your dog has an extra sensitive stomach, but usually those are the dogs that do better on raw considering kibble has a huge ingredient list.

I'm not bashing you or your way of feeding. Just clarifying about PMR diets. No reason to get defensive. If anything, maybe learn from the experience as to why a raw diet didn't work.

Okay seriously? You need to relax.

a) Yes, dogs are all the same species, but they are still individuals and no one diet is going to suit every dog in the world. Just like people, some dogs have health issues, sensitivities, etc. that require alterations in the plan.

b) PMR is only one of many ways to feed raw food. Raw is fantastic, and people should be encouraged towards it, but even the experts disagree on what's required. Pushing one form at people as the ONLY appropriate way is not only disrespectful to those who have done their own leg work and research, found their own conclusions and are raw feeding in a manner that suits their dog, but also incredibly intimidating to people who are just starting out.

c) Just as a statement to your last sentence, Buddy's Parents DOES feed raw. It DOES work for her dogs. Just not YOUR definition of what is an appropriate way to feed raw foods. *gasp*

I myself am tiring really quickly of how forceful you two are being about this. I get that you're passionate, but guess what, other people around here are too. There are plenty of members on this forum who have just as much raw feeding knowledge and experience as you do (some more, believe it or not). Bringing your knowledge to the table is one thing. Jamming it down people's throats and stomping on toes is another entirely.

 

[BoxMeIn21]

I myself am tiring really quickly of how forceful you two are being about this. I get that you're passionate, but guess what, other people around here are too. There are plenty of members on this forum who have just as much raw feeding knowledge and experience as you do (some more, believe it or not). Bringing your knowledge to the table is one thing. Jamming it down people's throats and stomping on toes is another entirely.

:hail:

Seriously, BabyDane. Dial it down a bit.

 

[BabyDane]

I am apparently done trying to convince anyone that their dogs are carnivores. Ignorance is bliss.

 

[AllieMackie]

I am apparently done trying to convince anyone that their dogs are carnivores. Ignorance is bliss.

No, you're not bashing other's ways of feeding. Not at all.

Pretty much all of our regulars get the fact that raw is the best diet out there, for the most part. It doesn't mean that others are wrong about their personal choices of diet for their dogs. You do what works best for you and your dog. Simple as that.

Also, Raw prices are different everywhere. It's quite expensive here, unless you are part of a raw co-op or are on good terms with a butcher, of which we have few outside of downtown.

 

[Amstaffer]

I feed Raw Diet to Sal and formerly to Athena. I have been dabbling with Raw and BARF diet for a long time but exclusively for about 2 years. I am very happy with the results.

I currently feed Stella and Chewy's Raw Diet

 

[noludoru]

And,for the record, I'm not offended, nor am I feeling particularly bent. I just hate to see people criticized when what they are feeding is loads better than Ol Roy and are doing they best they can.

I'm dittoing this post. No one in this thread came off offended of bent out of shape, and if that was directed at me, I apologize - I thought I was being polite.

You are correct in the fact that health matters most...but I think the part that Jon was trying to convey, and obviously failing, is that PMR can work for every dog. You just have to find out what the right balance is. One member of a single species does not differ much, if at all, from the rest of the members in that species.

Some combination of these three ingredients can cater to any dog out there. I think what he was trying to say was that maybe there was a combination that would work, like adding more bone and cutting back on skeletal muscle meat, that would have worked.

I understood that, and I think everyone who read his posts did. I just disagreed.

But...people come to forums just like this one to learn about this stuff. They are most likely going to do searches for thread pertaining to a raw diet. Information and stuff like this should be posted up...and not bashed on either. Forums like this are built for debate, and you gotta have a strong backbone to survive and take what people say in stride...but stay curtious and open-minded all the while.

He is coming off a bit strong, but from reading some of the other posts in reply to his were a bit strong right off the cuff as well. If you don't want to debate...don't post up. And people should really not get offended if someone doesn't agree with what they do or believe, but just take what they say with a grain of salt. Absolutely no reason to get bent over it.

I fully agree that people come to forums to learn, but I don't think the judgment is fair. His comment about people not being able to afford raw being 'amusing' is a little rude. It's stuff like that that makes potential raw feeders uninterested in coming to you for advice, or timid about posting about it.

Again, I haven't seen any posts from people getting bent out of shape or offended, and if that was directed at me, maybe you could point out where I was?

I do think cats suffer from kibble much, much more than dogs and for one nine pound cat it's cheap (MUCH cheaper than the $40 a month I spend on cans for the other cat who will not touch raw) and does not take up much room in the freezer. For Willie there is a HUGE difference between his poop on raw and off of raw. When he ate kibble (first purina, then felidae, then Before Grain, then California Natural), then ate half kibble and half raw, his poops were nasty (worse on just kibble). I mean you could smell them throughout the entire house strongly for a good 15 minutes. Plus they were soft, thank god he has short hair.
I switched him to 100% raw they completely turned around. They are hard, odorless and infrequent. YAY!!

That was what I noticed when I was feeding Emma raw, too. She has bad digestion to begin with - her stool is usually soft and loose, and if she's eaten ANYTHING other than her canned Wellness "loose" is an understatement. When she was on raw, it was so much nicer - easy litterbox-cleanup, she smelled and looked better, she enjoyed mealtime more and spent her time on her food instead of scarfing it down. . . I need to start her back on raw at the end of the month.

 

[BoxMeIn21]

I am apparently done trying to convince anyone that their dogs are carnivores. Ignorance is bliss.

You don't need to convince us of anything. People are going to do what they want with their dogs. They don't need to have a raw food zealot jam it down their throat that they are "doing it wrong".

As it's been mentioned in this thread plenty of times, there are contridictions even in raw feeding circles, so quit trying to convince us that your way is the only way, because it's not.

For the record, I feed prey model. :lol-sign:

 

[xpaeanx]

"It is with absolute frankness that we speak of this struggle of the proletariat; each man must choose between joining our side or the other side. Any attempt to avoid taking sides in this issue must end in fiasco."

I don't think I need to explain that.

 

[Criosphynx]

Probably incorrect diet structure and ratios. Adding in too many different meats in too quickly. To adjust to a raw diet completely takes 2-3 months or longer for some dogs. People try and bite the bullet adding in all kinds of things in the beginning before their dog's system can actually handle the variety.

thanks for re iterating what I already know. You're assumption that you are the only one who knows about this stuff is amazing.

Like I said before I did it correctly and there were still problems. Som' of my dogs did ok for a week or so, som' were sick immediately. I know about adding different protiens and balancing things. Those meats were all tried independently over the course of TWO YEARS with months inbtween. I had the best success with pork until my pit bull became so ill she had to go to the E VET and have meds and fluids put into her. Thats from a RMB from ONE protien source. Explain that please?

as far as the 2-3 month "adjustment" you are refering to. Iam not comfortable with it. I never made it past a week as cleaning up diarhea and vomit from five dogs is very alarming. If my dogs are going to puke, have diarhea and get so sick I have to vet them then thats an 'adjustment" I don't feel they need. They are fine on grain free kibble and do fantastic on it.

Its not like Iam feeding them alpo...and like I mentioned they get raw eggs and whole prey and do FINE on it. Its just too expensive. Thus not PRACTICAL

 

[BabyDane]

You don't need to convince us of anything. People are going to do what they want with their dogs. They don't need to have a raw food zealot jam it down their throat that they are "doing it wrong".

As it's been mentioned in this thread plenty of times, there are contridictions even in raw feeding circles, so quit trying to convince us that your way is the only way, because it's not.

For the record, I feed prey model. :lol-sign:

When a raw diet is done wrong...dogs get ill so there definitely is a wrong way to feed raw. I am in no way saying that BARF is inferior to PMR or what have you. That was my point all along. I was commenting on a dog that got ill on a raw diet without grains and then them coming to the conclusion that the dog needs grains in their diet, which even from AAFCO states that there is no requirement of grains the diet of dogs

Instead of coming to the conclusion of the dog needing grains, maybe they should look at how their diet was structured. Have an open mind about it. How is that in any way bashing someone's diet or stepping on toes or jamming my beliefs down someone else's throat? All I am saying here is have an open mind

I perfectly well know that my way isn't the only way. I don't look down my nose at anyone for feeding any particular diet. I am totally all for feeding whatever works for a particular dog. But just because of that...doesn't mean "whatever works" is appropriate for the species (and every member of a species has to have the same physiological requirements to be considered a member).

There are people I know that feed Kibbles n' Bits because when they switched their dog to a premium food, their dog got sick. Usually when dogs get sick when switched a new food, whatever that might be...something went wrong with the switch (fed way too much a premium or made the transition to quickly) and with raw (PMR or BARF) something went wrong in the formulation of the diet.

Okay seriously? You need to relax.

I think everyone here needs to relax, and yes that includes me. But when I feel that people are taking my posts the wrong way, and they are, I feel the obligation to try and straighten things out.

a) Yes, dogs are all the same species, but they are still individuals and no one diet is going to suit every dog in the world. Just like people, some dogs have health issues, sensitivities, etc. that require alterations in the plan.

Dogs are individuals. You are 100% correct on that point. But that does not mean that their physiological needs are different from anyone else's in that species. Some individuals in a species cannot be omnivores while others are carnivores. Again, you are correct that some dogs are more sensitvie to some foods but that is completely different than saying they are different in what they need to survive.

b) PMR is only one of many ways to feed raw food. Raw is fantastic, and people should be encouraged towards it, but even the experts disagree on what's required. Pushing one form at people as the ONLY appropriate way is not only disrespectful to those who have done their own leg work and research, found their own conclusions and are raw feeding in a manner that suits their dog, but also incredibly intimidating to people who are just starting out.

If I was pushing PMR on people I would say so and you would know it. I would say "How dare you feed your dog grains, fruits and veggies!!!"

This next statement is 100% opinion based and not directed at anyone: I feel that if you need to puree anything (ie anything plant related) to make it digestible and usable for a dog...they shouldn't be fed to a dog.

c) Just as a statement to your last sentence, Buddy's Parents DOES feed raw. It DOES work for her dogs. Just not YOUR definition of what is an appropriate way to feed raw foods. *gasp*

And that is fantastic! Where did I ever say that what they were doing was horrible???

All I was clarifying on was that dogs don't require grains. And that just because it works...doesn't make it appropriate.

I myself am tiring really quickly of how forceful you two are being about this. I get that you're passionate, but guess what, other people around here are too. There are plenty of members on this forum who have just as much raw feeding knowledge and experience as you do (some more, believe it or not). Bringing your knowledge to the table is one thing. Jamming it down people's throats and stomping on toes is another entirely.

Oh, trust me...I know that I am not the most experienced here...but that doesn't mean that what I have to say is not worthy of being apart of this discussion. That is what debate is all about.

It is up to the reader of my posts whether or not I am "jamming it down throats" or "stepping on toes." Sometimes people just really don't like what people have to say...and that is perfectly fine.

 

[BoxMeIn21]

the dog needs grains in their diet, which even from AAFCO states that there is no requirement of grains the diet of dogs

That is true, dogs don't have ingredient requirements, they have nutrient requirements. BP's dog probably needs fiber in the diet, so that's probably why they mentioned they needed grains.

 

[RawFedDogs]

Personally, I think BabyDane is right on the money and she strikes me as very knowledgable. She has done her research and is trying to pass it on to others, some of whom are too stubborn to take it.

Okay seriously? You need to relax.

a) Yes, dogs are all the same species, but they are still individuals and no one diet is going to suit every dog in the world. Just like people, some dogs have health issues, sensitivities, etc. that require alterations in the plan.

Actually a PMR diet will suit every single dog ever born. The dogs with health issues, if those issues were diet caused were caused by kibble. PMR diets cure digestive problems, not cause them. Have you ever seen a cow who can't eat grass? Same with a dog who can't eat meat, bones, and organs.

b) PMR is only one of many ways to feed raw food. Raw is fantastic, and people should be encouraged towards it, but even the experts disagree on what's required.

No need to look at the so called experts. One big problem with raw feeding today is that there are way to many self proclaimed experts who have very little knowledge of canine nutrition. You don't look to experts, you look to nature. Dogs have been eating a PMR diet for millions of years and thriving. They haven't been eating kibble but 50 or so years and the whole canine world has been falling appart healthwise ever since kibble was introduced. They didn't eat grains until the commercial dog food market began.

There is no argument that dogs are carnivores. As such they eat meat, bones and organs and nothing else. If they also ate plant matter, we would call them omnivores. So feeding them anything else but those three items is not natural and unhealthy.

Don't try to equate a dogs nutritional needs to human nutritonal needs. We are an entirely different animal whose bodies are designed completely different.

Pushing one form at people as the ONLY appropriate way is not only disrespectful to those who have done their own leg work and research, found their own conclusions and are raw feeding in a manner that suits their dog, but also incredibly intimidating to people who are just starting out.

It's not disrespectful to attempt to teach someone the proper way to feed a dog. If their conclusions determine that dogs need nutrition from sources other than meat, bones, and organs, their conclusions are not based on science. I suspect they are trying to equate dog's nutritional needs to humans.

c) Just as a statement to your last sentence, Buddy's Parents DOES feed raw. It DOES work for her dogs. Just not YOUR definition of what is an appropriate way to feed raw foods. *gasp*

I myself am tiring really quickly of how forceful you two are being about this. I get that you're passionate, but guess what, other people around here are too.

I don't see BabyDane as being all that forceful. I see her as stating facts even if some people don't like those facts. They are still facts.
Dogs are carnivores ... that is a fact.
Carnivores satisfy all their nutritional needs from meat, bones, and organs ... that is a fact.
Dogs cannot properly digest or extract nutrients from plant matter ... that is a fact.
Regardless of how much dogs like to eat fruits and veggies the same way I like to eat ice cream and cake and candy, they derive little nutrition from them just as we I derive little nutrition from ice cream, cake, and candy. ... that is a fact.

There are plenty of members on this forum who have just as much raw feeding knowledge and experience as you do (some more, believe it or not).

I don't believe it. At least not in my case and I suspect not in BabyDane's case either. From what I've read of her posts, she is pretty dang knowledgable.

Bringing your knowledge to the table is one thing. Jamming it down people's throats and stomping on toes is another entirely.

I haven't seen jamming down throat. I've seen facts stated by BabyDane. I assume you don't like those facts but that doesn't make them untrue, just inconvenient.

 

[Criosphynx]

I've seen enough of your posts on DF to know where this is going. Iam out.

opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:

have fun guys.

 

[BabyDane]

That is true, dogs don't have ingredient requirements, they have nutrient requirements. BP's dog probably needs fiber in the diet, so that's probably why they mentioned they needed grains.

But fiber is a nutrient, which happens to not be a requirement of dogs. Bone serves the same purpose as fiber in a dogs diet. Here is a post on another forum about how bone replaces fiber in a dogs diet.

I did.

Then you should know that adding bone to their diet causes firmer stools.

I saw that it did, but I asked HOW. Why would it cause constipation?

You asked how bone firms up stool. And I answered that question: constipation. But I guess I will explain to you how constipation works in accordance with bone.

In excess bone causes constipation because there is very little moisture in bones. That is why you have to moderate how much bone you feed on raw.

When water is absorbed in the large intestine, what is left behind is discarded as fecal material, whatever the body cannot digest. With bone, what is left behind is the insoluble minerals.

Since there is very little moisture in bone to begin with, when all of that moisture is absorbed it creates very dry, hard and often crumbly stool. But when bone is mixed with muscle or organ meat, which is high in water content, the two balance each other out.

So, when I suggest that Linsey increase her bone content in her dogs diet, it is because the higher bone content will cause firmer stools. In essence, make her dog a bit constipated. But hopefully not too constipated

The dog I was posting up was getting sick from a PMR diet. The most common reason why dogs get sick from it is lack of bone content. Which is why I was posting up on this thread in the first place.

 

[Gypsydals]

I feed raw, however I do not feed prey style. But the one does get fruits and veggies. If I let him thats all he would eat.

 

[vanillasugar]

Oh lookie. You had a friend join to stand up for you? Awesome.

I have no interest continuing to argue with someone who is so closed minded. I convert multiple people a week onto raw food through my job as well as feed it to my own animals. I'm not an idiot, and I resent being treated like I don't know what I'm talking about or like I need to be "convinced" of something I already know. I don't necessarily disagree with your facts, I vehemently disagree with how you've chosen to communicate them.

 

[BabyDane]

Oh lookie. You had a friend join to stand up for you? Awesome.

I have no interest continuing to argue with someone who is so closed minded. I convert multiple people a week onto raw food through my job as well as feed it to my own animals. I'm not an idiot, and I resent being treated like I don't know what I'm talking about or like I need to be "convinced" of something I already know. I don't necessarily disagree with your facts, I vehemently disagree with how you've chosen to communicate them.

RFD is a friend of mine, more like a mentor really. I didn't ask him to join here or stand up for me. I don't need the help...but I appreciate it. I really wish that more people here would see that my posts are based on facts...dogs are carnivores, and don't need grains...and not take that as a threat to their ways of feeding. Like I stated earlier, I don't look down on anyone that doesn't feed raw.

It's funny that you agree with my ideas and beliefs with regards to feeding and you are the one that is getting the most offended with my statements. Maybe it isn't just me that has to have an open mind about things....

I am glad that you are able to switch so many people. That is awesome. I don't have that opportunity at my work. My boss does not advocate it.

And just out of curiosity...what don't you agree with as far as communicating my thoughts? And please don't saw "shoving down throats" or "stepping on toes" because that is not informative but just a baltant attack.

 

[ACooper]

Hmmmmmm, all this "dogs are carnivores" stuff I don't buy, sorry, nothing you can do to convince me of that one. I am more in the camp of omnivore and OPPORTUNISTIC carnivore

I've owned way to many dogs who literally BEG for fruits and veggies to believe other wise, Orson will raid the trash for lettuce and various veggies anytime he can......seriously PASS UP MEAT to get to them I believe they don't need grains (as a whole, not each individual obviously) but hey, lots of people are lactose intolerant and we are BORN to drink milk eh? LOL

 

[Izzy's Valkyrie]

Hmmmmmm, all this "dogs are carnivores" stuff I don't buy, sorry, nothing you can do to convince me of that one. I am more in the camp of omnivore and OPPORTUNISTIC carnivore

I've owned way to many dogs who literally BEG for fruits and veggies to believe other wise, Orson will raid the trash for lettuce and various veggies anytime he can......seriously PASS UP MEAT to get to them I believe they don't need grains (as a whole, not each individual obviously) but hey, lots of people are lactose intolerant and we are BORN to drink milk eh? LOL

This^^

I would feed raw if I had the chance, money, and space. I am not convinced that one diet could work for all dogs. That's already been disproved with people, why can't you believe it is so with canines?