Who else feeds RAW?
- Thread starter jdatwood
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I've found your style of posting in this thread to be overbearing and a bit arrogant. You are obviously self assured and passionate, and perhaps that is all you have intended through your posts, but it reads as browbeating (at least to me). To tell people that they must have done something wrong if their dogs got sick, etc. when you infact have no idea what they've done or what experience they do have, is distasteful to me. Why not ASK them what they did? Share experience constructively instead of assuming that they've done it wrong?
I am, if anything, VERY open minded. I live to learn and and enjoy hearing what people have learned themselves and taking what I can from that. I have taken offense by your manner, not your message.
I am, if anything, VERY open minded. I live to learn and and enjoy hearing what people have learned themselves and taking what I can from that. I have taken offense by your manner, not your message.
:lol-sign: Oh Ivan! We definitely don't need two Orsons on the planet! LOLOL
My last dober boy was like that with FRUIT! He wouldn't touch a single veggie, but he would do ANYTHING for fruits......apples, bananas, peaches, you name it, LOL Orson is definitely a veggie man though.
I could point you to MANY dogs, some here on chaz, who LOVE their fruits and veggies! I do believe Renee's Kharma (Fila) loves certain fruits/veggies. I know MANY who love Avocados and steal them right from the trees, LOL
So ya, omnivore and opportunistic carnivore is what I firmly believe
My last dober boy was like that with FRUIT! He wouldn't touch a single veggie, but he would do ANYTHING for fruits......apples, bananas, peaches, you name it, LOL Orson is definitely a veggie man though.
I could point you to MANY dogs, some here on chaz, who LOVE their fruits and veggies! I do believe Renee's Kharma (Fila) loves certain fruits/veggies. I know MANY who love Avocados and steal them right from the trees, LOL
So ya, omnivore and opportunistic carnivore is what I firmly believe
Hmmmmmm, all this "dogs are carnivores" stuff I don't buy, sorry, nothing you can do to convince me of that one. I am more in the camp of omnivore and OPPORTUNISTIC carnivore
I've owned way to many dogs who literally BEG for fruits and veggies to believe other wise, Orson will raid the trash for lettuce and various veggies anytime he can......seriously PASS UP MEAT to get to them I believe they don't need grains (as a whole, not each individual obviously) but hey, lots of people are lactose intolerant and we are BORN to drink milk eh? LOL
I've owned way to many dogs who literally BEG for fruits and veggies to believe other wise, Orson will raid the trash for lettuce and various veggies anytime he can......seriously PASS UP MEAT to get to them
I believe they don't need grains (as a whole, not each individual obviously) but hey, lots of people are lactose intolerant and we are BORN to drink milk eh? LOL
If cats were fed exclusively plant material and no meat, they would die within a few weeks. That is why cats (big and small) are the only obligate carnivorous mammals on Earth.
The way I see it, and yes...*this is my opinion on the matter*...is that dogs like fruits and veggies and grains, not because they are a necessary component to their diet but they like the taste. Its like "cake and ice cream" to them. Our dogs don't get any fruits or stuff like that on a regular basis, but when they do the scarf them down like no one's business. Some people would think that if dogs ate them with such gusto that means they are necessary in their diet. I don't, because my dogs are all at their healthiest points in life on a PMR diet, without any fruits and veggies at all.
Of course not just one diet could work for all dogs, but the core idea that makes up a PMR diet is that of meat, bone and organ which will work for any dog out there if done correctly. I believe that individuals differ in what animals sources work best with them. Some dogs do better on chicken while others do better on beef. That is the extent to customizing a PMR diet to an individuals needs.
I think that you cannot compare a human's diet to a dogs diet, and with that the different diseases in humans that relate to with food (although I am a strong believer in the "raw diet" for humans as well...and I think that most of human diseases would disappear if people ceased to eat processed and inappropriate diets).
For one thing, humans are omnivores. Our diet can consist of a huge variety of things because of this fact. But because dogs are carnivores, they thrive best on meat, bone and organ from a variety of different animals. You can just look at simple anatomy to discern this yourself. This is not my opinion, but fact that you can find anywhere:
What does your dog's teeth look like? Sharp and pointy...for ripping and tearing through meat and bone. Our teeth are mostly flat, for grinding and chewing food well.
Jaw musculature, movement and strength? Very strong and muscular, and can only move up and down. This signifies that their teeth or jaws are not designed to "chew" or mush their food up like we do. The way that our jaws are hinged, makes it possible for us to move our lower jaw back and forth...go ahead...try it. Dogs cannot do this.
Digestive tract? Very limited and much shorter than ours. Digestion of meat an bone only takes about 6-12 hours from one end to the other. Kibble on the other hand takes up to 24 hours from end to end, which tells me that dogs are really not designed at all to handle a diet based on grains or plants.
Digestion? For dogs, digestion does not start in the mouth like it does for us. They crunch their food enough so it will fit down the hatch and that is it, which is why they don't "chew" their food like we do. Simple digestion starts off in the mouth with us humans...which is one reason why we can be considered omnivores.
With just these four reasons, considering dogs as carnivores is enough for me. But I will break it down a bit more...
If you were to add veggies and fruit to a dog's diet, you would have to first puree them, so as they at least get some nutrition from them. Why is this so? Because dogs lack the digestive enzymes and symbiotic relationships with bacteria, fungus and microorganisms to be able to break down cellulose...ie the building block of plant cell walls. To be able to get any nutrition out of fruits and veggies, you have to break that cell wall. This applies to us as well (think about the last time you ate corn???).
The only animals that are capable of breaking down plant cell walls are ruminants and some rodents. Which is exactly why you feed meats bone and organs from these animals to our carnivores. In essence carnivores are relying on their prey items to break down plants (fruit and veggies), get to the nutrients inside, and provide it to them for their well being. So, in reality there are no nutrients that are missing for a carnivore in meats, bone and organs.
Ya, a leaf of lettuce or broccoli spear tastes better to a "CARNIVORE" than a hunk of meat.......okie dokie
WHY do you think they're omnivores? and not just because they like the taste of fruits and veggies...
opcorn:No Jon, I understand exactly what you and babydane are saying, I just don't agree. And there are many studies that don't either.
Probably for every link you can post about dogs being carnivores, I can post one about them being omnivores. It's just a difference of opinion and all good
I personally don't feed raw. I do feed homecooked. I don't think raw is bad for dogs, I am just not equipped to deal with it so we don't. If we DID feed raw, I would STILL include fruits and veggies because THAT is my beliefs concerning dog health
EDIT: Sorry, you fixed your post while I was posting, LOL.
I've never experienced anything that convinces me other wise. I've read reports from both "camps" and know what I know from my own dogs.......
Probably for every link you can post about dogs being carnivores, I can post one about them being omnivores. It's just a difference of opinion and all good
I personally don't feed raw. I do feed homecooked. I don't think raw is bad for dogs, I am just not equipped to deal with it so we don't. If we DID feed raw, I would STILL include fruits and veggies because THAT is my beliefs concerning dog health
EDIT: Sorry, you fixed your post while I was posting, LOL.
I've never experienced anything that convinces me other wise. I've read reports from both "camps" and know what I know from my own dogs.......
Probably for every link you can post about dogs being carnivores, I can post one about them being omnivores. It's just a difference of opinion and all good
Science Diet and Hills come to mind here...
Oh don't even go there! :rofl1: I think you'd be hard pressed to find ANYONE here who likes SD or agrees with anything that company has to say! hahaha (or most dog food companies as a whole)
I am definitely NOT saying that the bulk of a dogs diet doesn't need to be animal protein based (meat), it most definitely SHOULD BE, but I don't agree that it needs to be exclusively meat for a dog to thrive. That is all.
I am definitely NOT saying that the bulk of a dogs diet doesn't need to be animal protein based (meat), it most definitely SHOULD BE, but I don't agree that it needs to be exclusively meat for a dog to thrive. That is all.
Right you are, Coop, and it's going to vary with different breeds as well. Filas come to mind, especially. The ones who could only live on a mostly meat diet didn't survive in much of the grossly impoverished environment where they originated.
Kharma's a total omnivore. Bimmer, on the other paw, being what he is, is very nearly exclusively carnivore. Tallulah . . . oh, that one eats anything that doesn't eat her first :rofl1:
Kharma's a total omnivore. Bimmer, on the other paw, being what he is, is very nearly exclusively carnivore. Tallulah . . . oh, that one eats anything that doesn't eat her first :rofl1:
I re-read some of my posts. I will admit that I sometimes get heated and come off a bit strong. But...I don't see that here. I have been called out on it before on other forums.
The problem that I think we are having here is that I am coming off arrogant and like a know-it-all (obviously from your reaction), but I just see it as confidence. I am confident in what I am saying and telling people. This is through research about feeding PMR, seeing/hearing countless people's success stories, helping some of these people work through their dogs getting sick, as well as my own personal experience with feeding my own animals. So, I am 99% confident in saying:
That if more bone was added into the diet to make up for the lack in grain fiber, the dog would most likely not have gotten sick in the first place, and coming to the conclusion of their dog needing grains is not accurate.
We are all entitled to our own opinions and beliefs. I think that Jon was just asking for some thoughts as to why you think your dogs are omnivores.
I have done the research on dogs true placement in the grand scheme of things. And there are studies that back up both sides, but that wasn't what made my mind up about it. The logical one for me is that they are carnivores because and above all...their morphology and anatomy, what I see. Sharp teeth and a short digestive tract (through animal anatomy and physiology classes in college).
The problem that I think we are having here is that I am coming off arrogant and like a know-it-all (obviously from your reaction), but I just see it as confidence. I am confident in what I am saying and telling people. This is through research about feeding PMR, seeing/hearing countless people's success stories, helping some of these people work through their dogs getting sick, as well as my own personal experience with feeding my own animals. So, I am 99% confident in saying:
That if more bone was added into the diet to make up for the lack in grain fiber, the dog would most likely not have gotten sick in the first place, and coming to the conclusion of their dog needing grains is not accurate.
No Jon, I understand exactly what you and babydane are saying, I just don't agree. And there are many studies that don't either.
Probably for every link you can post about dogs being carnivores, I can post one about them being omnivores. It's just a difference of opinion and all good
I personally don't feed raw. I do feed homecooked. I don't think raw is bad for dogs, I am just not equipped to deal with it so we don't. If we DID feed raw, I would STILL include fruits and veggies because THAT is my beliefs concerning dog health
EDIT: Sorry, you fixed your post while I was posting, LOL.
I've never experienced anything that convinces me other wise. I've read reports from both "camps" and know what I know from my own dogs.......
Probably for every link you can post about dogs being carnivores, I can post one about them being omnivores. It's just a difference of opinion and all good
I personally don't feed raw. I do feed homecooked. I don't think raw is bad for dogs, I am just not equipped to deal with it so we don't. If we DID feed raw, I would STILL include fruits and veggies because THAT is my beliefs concerning dog health
EDIT: Sorry, you fixed your post while I was posting, LOL.
I've never experienced anything that convinces me other wise. I've read reports from both "camps" and know what I know from my own dogs.......
I have done the research on dogs true placement in the grand scheme of things. And there are studies that back up both sides, but that wasn't what made my mind up about it. The logical one for me is that they are carnivores because and above all...their morphology and anatomy, what I see. Sharp teeth and a short digestive tract (through animal anatomy and physiology classes in college).
Aren't dogs descended from wolves that were more open to being scavengers? I think dogs are classified as carnivores but because they are scavengers they will eat nearly anything and everything....especially if they see their beloved leader eating it. I know Sal will literally eat anything I do. He is convinced that if I eat it....it much be good. If he only knew.....
Aren't dogs descended from wolves that were more open to being scavengers? I think dogs are classified as carnivores but because they are scavengers they will eat nearly anything and everything....especially if they see their beloved leader eating it. I know Sal will literally eat anything I do. He is convinced that if I eat it....it much be good. If he only knew.....
They have evolved to be scavengers, and will eat whatever they can in times of famine. This includes fruits, nuts and other plant items. With this being said I don't think that fruits and veggies play a key role in the diets of our dogs. Because in a perfect world, without famine...you wouldn't ever see wolves eating these items. It is not beneficial to their survival in the wild to live off a large majority of fruits and such, which is why wolves primarily eat meat and bone. This is because they just cannot derive enough nutrition from them due to their dentition and jaw structure.
If fruits and veggies are added to a dogs diet, I would say that they would have to be added in such small quantities that it would add up to one meal every 2 weeks, to emulate what happens in the wild. And to better yet model their diet...feed them whole, raw fruits and veggies...cuz there aint no food processors out in them woods :lol-sign:
I think that domesticated dogs who choose to eat veggies and fruits do so because they like the taste, not because they are telling you "I'm missing something from my diet."
Kharma, Bimmer and Tallulah are all dogs. Kharma is the Fila you've heard me talk so much about.
There's a couple thought-camps on the evolution of the domestic dog. Doberluv has posted a few articles on it before. Some say our dogs descended from wolves, which is the most commonly held theory. Others say that our dogs descended from another type of wild canine, more akin to a dingo than a wolf. Either way, we got our dogs from whatever types of canines started to scavenge off our trash heaps, leading to them being labeled "opportunistic carnivores". Thanks to the variety of trash founds in the refuse piles around the world, I honestly think that different breeds, because they have different backgrounds, are able to tolerate and/or use fruits/veggies in varying amounts of success. Does it need to make up the majority of their diets? Not by a long shot.
There's a couple thought-camps on the evolution of the domestic dog. Doberluv has posted a few articles on it before. Some say our dogs descended from wolves, which is the most commonly held theory. Others say that our dogs descended from another type of wild canine, more akin to a dingo than a wolf. Either way, we got our dogs from whatever types of canines started to scavenge off our trash heaps, leading to them being labeled "opportunistic carnivores". Thanks to the variety of trash founds in the refuse piles around the world, I honestly think that different breeds, because they have different backgrounds, are able to tolerate and/or use fruits/veggies in varying amounts of success. Does it need to make up the majority of their diets? Not by a long shot.
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Add mine to the list... mine LOVE veggies and fruits.
Comparing fruit/veggies to ice cream and candy is so unthinkable, I almost have no response
It must be nice to be the best pet owner on the planet
How do you like it? Someone on another board I am on has been asking about it a lot, they are very interested in feeding it, as it recently became available in their area but they cant find anyone who has experience with it and can say whether their dogs like it/ did well on it.
Here's what I equate that to... kids will almost always pick candy and ice cream over meat, fruits, and veggies right?
It tastes good to them, that's why they go nuts for it
It tastes good to them, that's why they go nuts for it
It must be nice to be the best pet owner on the planet
How do you like it? Someone on another board I am on has been asking about it a lot, they are very interested in feeding it, as it recently became available in their area but they cant find anyone who has experience with it and can say whether their dogs like it/ did well on it.