Who else feeds RAW?

[BabyDane]

Kharma, Bimmer and Tallulah are all dogs. Kharma is the Fila you've heard me talk so much about.

There's a couple thought-camps on the evolution of the domestic dog. Doberluv has posted a few articles on it before. Some say our dogs descended from wolves, which is the most commonly held theory. Others say that our dogs descended from another type of wild canine, more akin to a dingo than a wolf. Either way, we got our dogs from whatever types of canines started to scavenge off our trash heaps, leading to them being labeled "opportunistic carnivores". Thanks to the variety of trash founds in the refuse piles around the world, I honestly think that different breeds, because they have different backgrounds, are able to tolerate and/or use fruits/veggies in varying amounts of success. Does it need to make up the majority of their diets? Not by a long shot.

This is the basis for the commercial dog food industry. This is the reason why most vets and pet nutritionists think that it is ideal to feed grain or plant based foods to dogs, and do not advocate a raw or more natural approach to nutrition. This idea that dogs have been "omnivores" throughout antiquity has no bearing in my book, because evolution does not happen that fast. Evolution takes several hundred thousand years at a minimum to show changes in speciation, which includes diet.

Since the domestication of dogs and industrialization of our modern world, only ~10K years, the nutritional and physiological needs of dogs have not changed, and if so only very slightly. And because dogs were not a precious commodity and considered to be on the same level as "family" through these times, of course no one really paid much attention to what the dog ate which was "trash."

If dogs were to have eaten trash (or kibble...if it were found naturally??? and if dogs were not selectively bred) for a few hundred thousand years, you betcha they would thrive on a plant based diet. But that is not the reality of the matter, quite the opposite.

 

[BabyDane]

Comparing fruit/veggies to ice cream and candy is so unthinkable, I almost have no response

Why is it so unthinkable? I mean to a dog's perspective...in terms of nutrition? A dog in reality cannot get much out of whole fruit and veggies...so in essence it is like giving empty calories to a child. You have to remember that dogs and people are two very different species. What is good for us is not necessarily good for dogs.

When comparing the two in terms of human nutrition, it is unthinkable

 

[Zoom]

The commerical pet food industry doesn't base it's food on fruits and veggies though, only cheap and easy grains like corn and wheat chaff. No dog is going to eat those given half the chance.

You'll find that while what version of a raw diet people feed or advocate, you'll find very few people on here advocating mainstream commercial diets. Most of our kibble feeders are feeding the specialty, high-quality diets, with various amounts of raw supplementation, mostly RMB's for rec/teeth-cleaning.

 

[crazy_paws]

As far as the fruits and veggies, the arguments that I've seen against it from the PMR camp are that dogs cannot break down the cell walls and derive any nutrition or calories at all from fruit and veggie matter. So, would it not be more like feeding an ice cube than cake/candy?

Two of my dogs are of breeds that notoriously enjoy fruit and veggies. They are not morbidly obese due to this predilection.

 

[ACooper]

Why is it so unthinkable? I mean to a dog's perspective...in terms of nutrition? A dog in reality cannot get much out of whole fruit and veggies...so in essence it is like giving empty calories to a child. You have to remember that dogs and people are two very different species. What is good for us is not necessarily good for dogs.

When comparing the two in terms of human nutrition, it is unthinkable

Dogs can and DO glean vitamins and nutrients from fruits and vegetables. True they don't "process" lots of it, especially raw fruits and veggies, but they can also use the fiber in many cases.

And I definitely agree that dogs and people are very different species.......wouldn't even attempt to argue otherwise. BUT, you are also trying to convince me that years of evolution are to be discarded where canines are concerned but not with people? I am quite sure cave men (and/or primitive man) ate quite differently than we do today.........does that mean I should go out and kill something, not cook it and have at it? And live on what can be caught or grown in my immediate area only? I doubt I would remain healthy for long if I tried it, LOL

 

[PoodleMommy]

As far as the fruits and veggies, the arguments that I've seen against it from the PMR camp are that dogs cannot break down the cell walls and derive any nutrition or calories at all from fruit and veggie matter. So, would it not be more like feeding an ice cube than cake/candy?

I was going to say this too... but comparing it to an ice cube wouldnt be nearly as reactive as comparing it to cake/candy and this OP seems set to only get a rise out of people... so I dont think trying to be logical is worth your time

 

[BabyDane]

Dogs can and DO glean vitamins and nutrients from fruits and vegetables. True they don't "process" lots of it, especially raw fruits and veggies, but they can also use the fiber in many cases.

IMO they don't process enough of it to make it worth while feeding it. There are all the necessary nutrients in meat, bone and organ. Bone replaces fiber, so there really is no need for plant matter.

And I definitely agree that dogs and people are very different species.......wouldn't even attempt to argue otherwise. BUT, you are also trying to convince me that years of evolution are to be discarded where canines are concerned but not with people? I am quite sure cave men (and/or primitive man) ate quite differently than we do today.........does that mean I should go out and kill something, not cook it and have at it? And live on what can be caught or grown in my immediate area only? I doubt I would remain healthy for long if I tried it, LOL

Actually, I think that if people reverted back to what "cave" men ate, they would be a lot more healthy. Look at the average American? Obese. Cave men? Not so much. Diabetes? Is a "new age" disease. Etc, etc.

If you look at some of the fad "diets" out there (the good ones I mean...just like a raw diet for dogs/cats) they advocate eating only lean meats, fresh fruits/veggies, nuts and berries...but not grains. Why? Grain is pretty useless if not processed to make breads and flour based foods. You would be amazed at how well you feel if you totally change your diet to emulate what primitive man ate. Of course in this day and age you have to take other things into consideration...like food processing (meats and such) that would make it not beneficial to eat it raw. Look into doing the South Beach diet. I always feel better when I'm on it, compared to when I am not LOL!

 

[BabyDane]

I was going to say this too... but comparing it to an ice cube wouldnt be nearly as reactive as comparing it to cake/candy and this OP seems set to only get a rise out of people... so I dont think trying to be logical is worth your time

I think the comparison of cake and ice cream and fruit and veggies in respect to a dogs diet is completely logical. We only get minimal nutrition out of cake and ice cream right? Well dogs only get minimal amounts of nutrition from fruits and veggies. And even further, the comparison of
the two is spot on because dogs like the taste of them (sometimes and it depends on the dog).

Water doesn't have any real nutrition other than it's physical properties and the fact that both dogs and humans need it to survive. Dogs don't need fruits and veggies to survive and we certainly don't need cake and ice cream to survive. But dogs and humans would most certainly parish quickly without water.

And Jon's initial post was trying to get a rise out of people. But obviously not the one that he got. He lives for our dogs and really enjoys talking about them and talking and learning about dog nutrition. He just wanted to join a new group and gain some comradery with raw. I do have to say that the dynamic on this board is much, much different than others that we are apart of. This is the first time I have witnessed such a harsh reaction from fellow raw feeders.

 

[ACooper]

Again, not arguing about grains........for dogs OR people! I think people could live healthy and happy without them. But that is a generalized statement that might not pertain to ALL creatures in a certain species. As I pointed out, humans are BORN to drink milk (as most other mammals on the planet, LOL) but that doesn't stop some of them from being lactose intolerant......some right from birth. My brother was born that way and couldn't even digest/keep down my mom's breast milk or any dairy based formula He had to drink nasty smelling, soy based milk. So there are exceptions to every rule Including grains for dogs I am sure.........I haven't experienced it, but if someone else says they have, I have no reason to doubt their word.

And people who cut out grains (at least processed grains) ARE healthier and feel better for it in general..........no argument from me on that either. But then you go to the other extreme of Atkins. No fruits, no grains, and most veggies eliminated. Your diet consists of mosty protein with a few green veggies..........You have MANY who swear by it, claiming it's the healthy way to go. I don't agree with them, but they can live their way, LOL

Even if I raised my OWN meat in the backyard and knew how it was handled from day one, what it was exposed to and how it was stored, I highly doubt it would be very safe for me to eat it raw as primitive people once did..........evolution has played it's part in our digestion and needs the same as it has in dogs.

That is my opinion, you are welcome to yours. I am glad your dogs are lucky enough to have you, one who cares enough to do what you feel is the very best for them and at the end of the day, that is what matters most

I'm outta here, got a hubby with a headache and kids that want to be rowdy......not a good combo, LOL

 

[PoodleMommy]

And Jon's initial post was trying to get a rise out of people. But obviously not the one that he got. He lives for our dogs and really enjoys talking about them and talking and learning about dog nutrition. He just wanted to join a new group and gain some comradery with raw. I do have to say that the dynamic on this board is much, much different than others that we are apart of. This is the first time I have witnessed such a harsh reaction from fellow raw feeders.

I cant imagine he believed that coming to a new place and saying that his way was the ONLY way was going to garner any friends.

There are LOTS of raw feeders here, but I have never seen one of them shove their beliefs down anyones throats in the way he has... there are raw feeders here, premium quality kibble feeders, and even people who feed gasp! grocery store kibble and there are people in all three categories who love their dogs more then anything... and even with the silly "no offense" insertion... he IS offending people, and I have no doubt he intended to do such.

 

[LauraLeigh]

IMO they don't process enough of it to make it worth while feeding it. There are all the necessary nutrients in meat, bone and organ. Bone replaces fiber, so there really is no need for plant matter.



Actually, I think that if people reverted back to what "cave" men ate, they would be a lot more healthy. Look at the average American? Obese. Cave men? Not so much. Diabetes? Is a "new age" disease. Etc, etc.

If you look at some of the fad "diets" out there (the good ones I mean...just like a raw diet for dogs/cats) they advocate eating only lean meats, fresh fruits/veggies, nuts and berries...but not grains. Why? Grain is pretty useless if not processed to make breads and flour based foods. You would be amazed at how well you feel if you totally change your diet to emulate what primitive man ate. Of course in this day and age you have to take other things into consideration...like food processing (meats and such) that would make it not beneficial to eat it raw. Look into doing the South Beach diet. I always feel better when I'm on it, compared to when I am not LOL!

Sorry, kind of off topic rant....

Type 2 diabetes, maybe Type 1, not so much, it's in a huge part genetic, my great grandmother died of type 1 in 1931 as a young woman, My grandfather was diagnosed with it in his 30's and my daughter has it now.... None were overweight and I am sure in those days my g-grandmother was not eating a lot of processed foods... My grandfather was a cook, and a health food nut, way before his time as far as what we should eat, my daughter has had more processed foods than either of them, but not as much as many kids today...

Sorry.... it is a personal peeve of mine when people talk about "Diabetes" without clarifying which type, and how it is all because of how we eat, our weight etc... Type 2 in many cases is, but Type 1 is still a bit of a mystery and my daughter deals with way to many people who think, if she just eats better she'll be able to get off insulin, there is NO cure dietary or otherwise for type 1, only control through insulin....

Although diabetes has been recognized since antiquity, and treatments were known since the Middle Ages, the elucidation of the pathogenesis of diabetes occurred mainly in the 20th century6. Until 1921 when insulin was first discovered and made clinically available, a clinical diagnosis of what is now called type 1 diabetes was an invariable death sentence, more or less quickly. Non-progressing type 2 diabetics almost certainly often went undiagnosed then; many still do. The discovery of the role of the pancreas in diabetes is generally credited to Joseph Von Mering and Oskar Minkowski, two European researchers who in 1889 found that when they completely removed the pancreas of dogs, the dogs developed all the signs and symptoms of diabetes and died shortly afterward. In 1910 Sir Edward Albert Sharpey-Schafer of Edinburgh in Scotland suggested diabetics were deficient in a single chemical that was normally produced by the pancreas�he proposed calling this substance insulin. The endocrine role of the pancreas in metabolism, and indeed the existence of insulin, was not fully clarified until 1921, when Sir Frederick Grant Banting and Charles Herbert Best repeated the work of Von Mering and Minkowski, but went a step further and managed to show that they could reverse the induced diabetes in dogs by giving them an extract from the pancreatic islets of Langerhans of healthy dogs7. They went on to isolate the hormone insulin from bovine pancreases at the University of Toronto in Canada. This led to the availability of an effective treatment�insulin injections�and the first clinical patient was treated in 1922. For this Banting et al received the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 1923. The two researchers made the patent available and did not attempt to control commercial production. Insulin production and therapy rapidly spread around the world, largely as a result of their decision. The distinction between what is now known as type 1 and type 2 diabetes was made by Sir Harold Percival (Harry) Himsworth in 1935; he published his findings in January 1936 in The Lancet8.

 

[Zoom]

Coop, lactose intolerance is closer to a protein allergy than an actual "milk" allergy. Many, many LI people have found that if they switch to say, goat's milk, their LI symptoms disappear.

Now of course, there are people out there who are allergic to milk/casein proteins themselves, which sounds like was the case for you brother.

 

[BabyDane]

I cant imagine he believed that coming to a new place and saying that his way was the ONLY way was going to garner any friends.

There are LOTS of raw feeders here, but I have never seen one of them shove their beliefs down anyones throats in the way he has... there are raw feeders here, premium quality kibble feeders, and even people who feed gasp! grocery store kibble and there are people in all three categories who love their dogs more then anything... and even with the silly "no offense" insertion... he IS offending people, and I have no doubt he intended to do such.

Wow. Why so hostile?

No reason to be.

 

[BabyDane]

Sorry, kind of off topic rant....***

Thanks for clarifying! And contributing to the conversation!

 

[PoodleMommy]

Wow. Why so hostile?

No reason to be.

:rofl1::rofl1::rofl1:

Sorry that my opinion that others besides your buddy are caring pet owners comes across as hostile.

 

[LauraLeigh]

Thanks for clarifying! And contributing to the conversation!

Sorry, but you brought it up....

I avoid saying to much in threads like this, for my own reasons... That does not mean I don't follow them.

And Chaz is all about getting off topic...

 

[noodlerubyallie]

This thread has been very interesting.

I personally don't have any desire to feed raw - too expensive, I don't have the space, and my husband couldn't handle it. Three dogs do really well on EVO, the other on Pro Plan.:yikes:

opcorn:

 

[SisMorphine]

Okay, sorry, I'm going back to the first couple of pages here. You (the OP and I assume OP's significant other) say that the pre-made frozen raw is sketchy because you don't know the sourcing. Okay, fine. BUT then you say that you feed your dogs meat from the supermarket . . . do you realize what that sourcing is? Frankly it's usually the same as the stuff at the higher quality pre-made frozen.

I feed raw. Heck, I've been feeding raw longer than you have. I know that my sourcing isn't optimum, I mean hell my chicken backs are only 18 cents a pound so I'm willing to bet those chickens aren't free range. For me my ultimate goal is to have my own organic farm where I raise my own animals for slaughter for my meat and my dog's meat. BUT currently that isn't an option for me and it also isn't an option for 99.999999999999999999999999% of raw feeders out there. So unless you're spending the big bucks feeding your dogs free range chickens from sourcing that you have personally seen then you have no place to bring up sourcing questions regarding other people's raw diets.


Again, I point out, I have been feeding raw longer than you. Hell, I had been taught about raw diets for almost a year before I got my first dog. Talk about well studied and starting out on the right foot huh? But I would NEVER be as arrogant as you two have been in this thread. Yes, you can believe that your way to feed raw is best, but you completely lack respect for people who feed any differently than you, whether that be raw or high quality kibble. People feed what they can afford and what they are comfortable with. And NO WAY is the RIGHT WAY for 100% of dogs. I understand that you're passionate about raw, that's fantastic, but you need to work on not being ARROGANT and to understand that no everyone can and/or will feed the way you do.

 

[jess2416]

This thread has been very interesting.

I personally don't have any desire to feed raw - too expensive, I don't have the space, and my husband couldn't handle it. Three dogs do really well on EVO, the other on Pro Plan.:yikes:

opcorn:

I dont have the desire either, I LIKE feeding kibble.. and Chloe does FANTASTIC on EVO, and I wouldnt change it for anything

 

[corgipower]

we I derive little nutrition from ice cream, cake, and candy.

Well if that's true, I'm in big trouble.