Which Dog For Me?

Doberluv · Aug 29, 2006

The poster has asked for help, advice and ideas very nicely, has been nothing but polite and shown an ernest interest in learning.... and most people here want to help him to make a good choice. Relying on positive reinforcement works on people the same as it does on dogs. It keeps them interested, learning, happier and they get educated. It works better than a lot of punishment, which tends to shut them down, discourage them and they stop inquiring and get no more enlightened.

Zoom · Aug 29, 2006

Zaiboo, the combination you are looking for is a very potentially dangerous, escpecially with a child in the house. I'm not sure if you're fully appreciating this fact.

Dobes and GSD's on their own are very intimidating LOOKING and the reputation that irresponsible people have built for them help keep people at arm's length. Just having a dog with those markings will make most people stop and think for a moment about coming any closer; I've had people cross the street while I'm walking my rottie mix Aubrey, and she's only the size of a beagle, but she has those black/tan markings that people seem to associate with "mean".

I personally would concentrate more on making sure my dog wasn't a lawsuit waiting to happen than on how to make it attack on command. To get the kind of dime-drop obedience you want out your dog, you are going to have to put HOURS upon HOURS of work with this dog, in formal obedience classes, to achieve those results. From the sound of how your time is already divided up, I don't really see that happening. I could be (and hopefully am) wrong, but the type of training you're looking for takes at least a full year's worth of hard work to achieve. Just something to keep in mind.

Doberluv · Aug 29, 2006

What I want to get across is that all our breeds were bred for some reason or another, some job. They tend to lean toward particular traits within each breed. However, more significantly, they are all individuals because they're living things with all kinds of genes inherrited from all kinds of dogs before them. Dobermans, in particular vary a lot in their temperament. You can't be sure that you're going to end up with one who is sharper or milder. Training and socializing has a lot to do with it, but not everything to do with it. They have their heritage.

Most any of the dogs in the working or even herding group require an experienced owner and lots of time. They all seem to need tons of exercise, training... lots of time.

Most dogs tend to gravitate toward their main caregiver. That's more of a dog trait than a breed trait. They usually love everyone in the family too, but will tend to follow, relate or obey better their main caregiver...some breeds, perhaps a little more "sticky" about that than others. I would say that a Dobe and a GSD are a little more leaning toward one person, but again...they are individuals and that may not always hold true. My Dobe absolutley adores my 26 yr. old daugher and she lives 400 miles away and we only see her a few times a year. He just thinks she's wonderful. And she is. She's very good with dogs.

If people in your family are very experienced and knowegable about training and working with dogs and they all do it the same way, it could work. But that is highly doubtful that you'll get the support you need for a working type dog. As I talked about the Dobe in another thread, you see that I spend a lot of time with him, involved with him, taking him to agility and obedience classes.

I would think that a dog more bred for companionship might be a better bet for you. They're not tending to be quite as demanding or as difficult. Dobes can be pushy, determined and high, high energy.

Most dogs, as has been mentioned will bark and alert you to danger. My Lab, in fact became vicious at the door one time when something freaky happened late one night when my teenagers were home alone. I had never seen her bark at a single person before in her life. I would never ever in a million years have guessed that she would become a vicious, gnashing teeth, protective dog. So, it just goes to show. She was an easy, lovely dog to train. She was not a hyper dog, as some Labs are. So, that's an idea. They're usually wonderful with kids too. (of course, generalizations, but I mean....in general) LOL.

I know the idea of a beautiful, striking, imposing Doberman or GSD is appealing. There's no question about it. They are lovely. But they are a lot of work. And it sounds like you don't have enough time and it really does take one main person to train a dog....at least in the early years...to do it right. You need a real, solid relationshp with a dog as your main tool in training.

And the idea of them protecting you is "romantic." But it's not very likely. Most bad guys have guns, poison, knives. They can easily kill your dog before they kill you. Any dog just about, will bark their heads off in time for you to take measures to protect yourself.

I have a Doberman, mainly because I like all the work and I'm retired and have time. I'm into hiking and I live in a wilderness area where we can get tons of that. My Chihuahuas are great watch dogs. They hear things so far away, it's incredible and they hear things before my Doberman does, it would appear. I have a gun and I have a phone. I really don't need a Doberman. He might not do anything anyhow to protect me. He may chicken out at the last moment. It's just not the reason I chose this breed. I like their intelligence, their adeptness toward obedience, their atheletisism, their affectionate nature and a lot more. Yes, I do love their looks. But again, I have time. I've also had dogs steadily for 47 years and am very familiar with them.

See if this thing is of any help. It might be interesting to see what you come up with. I'm sure there's a dog for you and your family. It is nice that someone is always home. But I'd highly recommend an easier breed that doesn't require the intense needs of a Doberman or GSD or any herding/working type dog.

http://www2.dogbreedinfo.com/search.htm

Doberluv · Aug 29, 2006

Zoom....great post. Why can't I say something without making a book out of it??? Grrrr.

It can be very dangerous indeed having such a dog. You're right. These guys tend to have a high prey drive. They're a handful sometimes.

doberkim · Aug 29, 2006

zaidoo said:

because throughout the world, these breeds are being banned for aggressive behavior. and your posts have shown no understanding of the dogs true temperament or what they are capable of, so saying you WANT aggression is truly dangerous. what training experience do you have?

so don't get a doberman. my dobes ADORE laying in the grass, and they have all enjoyed good cuddles. My dobes are social and outgoing, adore people, but show proper suspicion when the situation calls for it. my current dobe (who is very young) acts stupid every single minute of his life - stupid is his middle name. he is goody, he is silly, and he is a doberman PUPPY - yes at 14 months.
dobermans are not man eaters - they are social family dogs that enjoy their family and enjoy people who they deem to be ok - and by enjoy, that means, leaning, cuddling, begging for pets. they are, by large, not distant dogs who supervise but never partake, they are not dogs that will ignore every other person.

WHY? why do you want a dog that has this level of suspicion for people he sees EVERY WEEK? have you ever lived with a dog so sharp that he never trusts the people he interacts with daily? do you know what sort of dog that is? why wouldn't a dog learn to trust and rely upon someone it sees weekly?

what on earth is a mean and stubborn face? why shouldnt the dog be welcoming to people it interacts with all the time?

what do you need a personal protection dog for? what on earth is so dangerous that you need a dog that will attack on command?

all in all, no. you have no time to devote to this dog - you can barely make time for 3 hours a day. i dont recall seeing breed experience, or training experience. this isnt a dog breed you can just expect to do training once a week and have it be sufficient - protection training is 3-4 times a week, often 2 evening nights and all day sat or sunday (or both). this is a breed that wants to be with its family, is extremely high energy and high prey drive.

from what you post, you don't need a dog. you need a bodyguard and a gun.

Julie · Aug 30, 2006

Doberluv said:

You are making a book out of it, because you care about your breed. You are trying to conceive every possible notion to the OP.
You are trying to be polite and educate so the OP can make an educated decision for himself. So another dobe will not end up at a shelter from an owner not ready or willing to take on the responsibility.

But,......... some people just do not get the hint.

Let me ask a few more questions to the OP before I assume to much.

Zaidoo,
You said in another thread your decision was a doberman........
Will the dog live inside OR is the dog going to live in your garden?
With a bed in the "courtyard"?
Are You willing to attend training for the dog?
Do you have many many hours per week to train, and retrain, and practice
and set up mock situations, and tweek her performace? It will literally be another full time job for you to get what you want. Not to mention you need a very intelligent reliable trainer at you disposal. It is definately not a walk in the park.

I do have experience with a GSD trained in "apprehension" and it is VERY time consuming. Rocket goes to work with hubby everyday, and is given mock situations several times a week, to keep her sharp. A trained dog in apprehension can go upwards of $8,000. She is also certified in tracking, narcotics, and personal protection. She was at the $11,000 dollar mark with her training. Unfortunately, we are just her caretakers until she retires....then she will live the rest of her life with us. Until then she is still part of our family...... great with our kids........ and has the ability to determine a threat from our friends...... and she gives no evil looks at all. All the school kids know her from the demonstrations her and hubby do, and they all run up to her at the fairs and on the street to get a lick and to pet her. But in a threatening situation she will react with gusto!! She has a very stable temperment and we were VERY lucky to be blessed with such a well rounded girl.

Are you willing to have your life revolve around this dog? If not, then the pup/or dog you want will never meet your unreal expectations.
I hope you heed the advice you have received, there is no perfect dog..... and no dog will meet all of your expectations living in a courtyard..... IT TAKES AN UNREAL AMOUNT OF TIME, AND THE HELP OF A GREAT TRAINER TO ACHEIVE YOUR EXPECTATIONS.

Just MHO of course.

~Tucker&Me~ · Aug 30, 2006

^Great post.
Some people just don't get or understand that you attract more bee's with honey.

~Tucker

yoko · Aug 30, 2006

i personally don't think you should get a dobe or a german shepherd. but as for a dog for protection.

i adopted yoshi from the pound the day she was going to be put down. i saved her i got her vetted and i got her to gain weight. she's the happiest sweetest dog in the whole world

she knows tricks and basic obeidiance but has never been trained to attack or anything that has to do with protecting me. but there's been many times when camping alone or with one of my friends, or walking at night that my dogs stepped up to protect me. she loves people but she can tell when somethings not right and if it doesn't add up to her she'll keep a person away from me at all costs. she's a little bit taller than my knee and in perfect shape. she doesn't look agressive, a little terrier maybe but nothing that most people are afraid of. but if somethings wrong she'd attack to keep me safe. she was never trained for it, i only taught her things like sit stay and a few tricks. if you bond closely with your dog i believe it'll watch out for you, maybe not attack, but definitely alert you to anything that maybe wrong.

on the other hand yoshi is a loving playful dog who gets along with everyone, can be trusted with strangers and children

Doberluv · Aug 30, 2006

Yoko...that's a very good, sensible post. Yoshi sounds like the perfect dog. What a loyal friend you have.

yoko · Aug 30, 2006

thank you

owning a dog is like a friendship. the more time and feeling you put into it the better and stronger the bond is.

i am happy yoshi will stand up for me, i can go outside and walk around town at night if i like as long as i have yoshi with me, i can go camping with one other female friend with no guys there for us if i have yoshi . but i would never purposefully put yoshi in the position that she would have to step in to protect me. it's happened, yes. but i usually take steps to avoid it. *ex: having fire during camping, always having cell phone, taking knife or other weapon when camping, trying to find someone to go with me*

your relationship with your dog and your dogs happiness should come way before your want for a slightly agressive dog that you can use as a weapon.

Caren+Bailey · Aug 30, 2006

Can i just ask why you want the dog to be "on guard" when you have visiters?
Also without being too rude...can i ask your age?

I don't understand how you can want to have a dog with a high Prey drive, living with a 4 year old child....and not only that, you want to teach him/her some aggresion.

Your 1st concern when buying any breed of dog should be what breed best suits you AND your family situation.

As others have said, the 2 breeds that you mention already have a bad name in society b/c of the way small minded people have raised them.

Without sounding offensive (b/c that is not how i intend this to be), please don't become one of those small minded people

zaidoo · Aug 30, 2006

Caren+Bailey said:

I'm 26 years old and I fully acknowledge/admire what you guys are suggesting me but maybe I'm not able to explain that I'm not trying/wanting to make my dog a dangerous creature. I want my dog to be brave and should show/establish practical meaning as a physical specimen.

A Doberman or a GSD should be tough and hot in nature not like a cat or someone who is scared. I want the dog to be good with everyone but show his place/position as a tough and high calibre dog. For example let's say if you watch WWE wrestling; they play characters and tehre is "Undertaker." He is tough and mean but he plays the role of a "good guy" and is very "dangerous/intimidating" to someone who is evil and people do like that character but he keeps his image as a very intimidating person who doesnt talk or say much but people know he's a good guy and is serving a good purpose. Did I make my point 'More Clear'

Bobsk8 · Aug 30, 2006

zaidoo said:

A Psychologist friend of mine many years ago told me once, " When you ask a question, you should be prepared for an answer that you might not want to hear". I think the overwhelming number of posts on your question recommend that you probably are too busy to properly raise a dog, especially the type of dog that you were considering buying. Having once been your age, and single, with just a few hours of day free, I doubt if I could have made the those hours totally available to a pet and even that time is woefully inadeqaute in my opinion. The people here are just trying to prevent you buying a dog, and the realizing that it is too much and the dog winding up in a pound in a year or less because you dont have the time for it or you can't train it properly and it becomes a pest. If anything else, it is not fair to the dog that you get.

cowgurl6254 · Aug 30, 2006

zaidoo said:

If you get a dobie or a GSD, most people will already be a little bit intimidated of it just because of their reputation and their looks. If you are truly seeking a guard dog, you will be better off paying a lot of money for one that is trained to attack on cue and ONLY on that cue. A finished GSD guard dog can easily cost 20,000. I'm still not getting why you need that kind of protection, but if you are intent on it, get one that is well trained so the young child in your home is not endangered.

casablanca1 · Aug 30, 2006

zaidoo said:

It is possible to train a dog to be this sort of dog - essentially, a trained attack dog - but it takes a lot of time and skill and the resulting dog is a dog who requires very alert, conscious and consistent handling by his/her owner. You couldn't take him to a barbecue, for example, and let him loose while you grilled some burgers. He'd very likely alert on something 'off' like if one of your friends had had a little too much to drink and was walking crooked, or one of your sister's kids was screaming and splashing in the kiddy pool. A good dog trained to take action in a bad situation can misread innocent situations. Owning such a dog involves a high level of committment.

In your situation - living with family that includes older people and children, and not having much free time - I think it would be impossible to train a dog to this level, and irresponsible to do so even if you could. I think your best bet is either to wait until your lifestyle allows for more time with the dog, or compromise and get a dog who can function within a family. That doesn't have to mean you give up all your desires, btw. You can still get a Doberman or GSD. Just don't go for the most assertive stud dog you can find. You'll have plenty of challenges training a dog, especially a working breed, without tackling a wannabe dictator. You might think you would be the only one he respects, but the truth is, that sort of personality in a dog equals a dog who doesn't respect anyone. If he's telling visitors their place, he's going to turn his eyes on you the moment they'll gone. That is a hard dog to deal with, and I don't think it's possible to get control of that sort of situation if you're barely ever home. It'll be his home, and you'll be just another visitor to know his place.

I also think you should look into an adult. You haven't got the time for a puppy, and adult dogs have 2 things going for them - you know what you're getting, and you don't have to wait 2-3 years for a true companion to emerge from puppy fat and teenage crazies. A good breeder or a good shelter should be able to help you find the right dog.

One last thing - try to look past the obvious to find class and heart in a dog. There are lions beneath plenty of shaggy coats and behind many gentle eyes. You might want the look of taut readiness or muscular weight, and that's fine, that's an aesthetic choice. But don't forget that these looks can easily hide a dog with such a chicken heart and lack of honor that he'll be a biter, a fighter and a runaway. Looks for character in your dog.

Doberluv · Aug 30, 2006

Zaidoo, what do you mean? Dogs are animals. They act very juvenile. My old Lab was 14 when I had to put her down a little over a year ago. She was still acting goofy and silly at times, when she was physically able to. Do you know that domestic dogs are paedomorphs of wolves? That means that they retain the juvenile qualities of wolf pups and never reach the the maturity of an adult wolf, their ancestor. Dogs, as adults are more playful, by far than adult wolves. Dogs bark like wolf pups. Woves rarely bark as adults. Even their biochemistry is different from a wolf. Dogs have higher levels of neuro transmitters like seretonin (the stuff that makes us happy)... and other physical characteristics. Dogs just plain never grow up. LOL. Dobermans in particular are one of the most undignified, goofy, silly, ridiculous dogs I've ever had. We're talking about living things here. Not robots that you can turn on and off. LOL.

What you want, what you describe is painfully unrealistic, I hate to say or dampen your enthusiasm. You want things which contradict eachother, which are incompatible....which don't happen with dogs. For instance...if you have a visitor who comes often to your home, any healthy, normal dog is going to become accustom to them, get to like them and not react the way you're wanting them to. No living thing with a brain stem will act the way you want because it goes against the scientific principles of learning behavior, like habituation and the law of effect.

Do you know what? I had a boyfriend a little over a year ago and I broke up with him. Lyric knew him well and saw him often....liked him. After I broke up...maybe a couple weeks later, I was gone and this guy came into my unlocked house and went to sleep in my bed. He had been drinking. I came home and my house was full of propane. He had turned on the propane stove (not sure if it was by accident or not). I came in and the place was all foggy. I quickly turned off the stove, opened the windows and shooed the dogs outside. Then went and yelled at this ex boyfriend. If I had come in with a cigerette, well...you know the rest of what would have happend. My dogs knew and liked this fellow and they knew no better. Lyric would have had to have some incredibly fancy training to know what to do in a case like that.

Why not get a good electronic security system if you live in such a dreadfully high crime area, a .38 or .44 mag and get yourself a dog as a companion if you truly love dogs. If it's not for the love of dogs, and for other reasons, it's not a good idea for you to get a dog.

You have to truly love them...deep in your heart, love their imperfect, goofy ways, their individual personalities, their forgiving, loving nature, their playful and mischievious ways, their innocence, the fact that we don't speak the same language and it's difficult to communicate with them, the fact that they don't think like we do or care about the same things as we do. You have to put up with a certain amount of destruction in your home and garden and have untold patience with them because until they are trained and even then, they are animals, not humans, not machines. They're not as intelligent as we are intellectually and we have to keep that in our minds all the time because people tend to expect far too much out of their dogs and then they punish them when they're so frustrated etc, etc, etc.

You have to be willing and wanting to give them everything they need because they live to be with their family. They are entirely dependent on humans. Do you know that a domestic dog will never make it in the wild? Even so called wild (feral) dogs depend on the proximately to humans by scavenging in garbage around villages and such.

We owe it to these animals which we have basically created to give them what they need to be happy. These domestic dogs which have lived with humans for tens of thousands of years are basically man made friends. They're neither wild or human. They're somewhere inbetween... almost. The ancient people thought they were the messengers between humans and the gods.

It's not fair or moral to get a dog and not do right by it.

I know you wouldn't mean to not do right by it. But from what you've told us, it does not sound like you're nearly experienced enough yet or that you have developed sound reasons...good reasons for having a dog...any dog, but especially what you're describing.

I think it's great that you're asking questions and we're all talking it over, but I recommend that you do some more thinking and get a better understanding of dogs and what it is you truly want. It may not really be a dog at all that you're needing.

What is it that you fear which makes you want protection? What kind of place do you live? Maybe we can come up with some other ideas in the meantime.

Renee750il · Aug 30, 2006

Zaidoo . . . I think your choice of words is probably getting in the way of what you are actually looking for.

What you seem to be trying to describe - once you take out labels like "aggressive" and "silly" is a dog that is self confident, intelligent and unafraid; a dog with a modicum of dignity and self control, and a dog who will love you and his family and who is enough of a physical specimen that people respect him.

You don't find that in any particular breed . . . that is something that you find in the individual dog. I would strongly encourage you to seek a dog who is past puppyhood at a shelter or rescue. Look with open eyes, but most of all an open heart. I have had several dogs like this - probably the most spectacular was Bear, a GSD/Akita mix I got at the pound when he was about five years old. He commanded respect from all, but was so trustworthy that he became a certified animal therapist and made visits to nursing homes and shelters for abused women and children. He did, however, show his guardian nature when it was called for on several occassions, at home and when traveling with me.

Unless you are quite experienced with puppies, it is very, very difficult to gauge what kind of personality - beyond obviously outgoing or shy - that a pup will have when it reaches maturity, so looking at more mature dogs will give you a far better chance to know what kind of character the dog has.

Bobsk8 · Aug 30, 2006

Doberluv,

Excellent Post!!!

zaidoo · Aug 30, 2006

Thank You All! I'll buy books and what I can do best is wait for a month or two. Learn and read and when I'll buy a Dobby or a GSD I'll train them properly but ofcourse with some "Beast" in them

Bobsk8 · Aug 30, 2006

zaidoo said:

Glad you listened to everyone and respected their suggestions.

Which Dog For Me?

Active Member

Twin 2.0

Active Member

Active Member

Naturally Natural

I am back again.

Active Member

New Member

Active Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

Bobsk8

Guest

Herding dogs rock!!!

Happy

Active Member

Felurian

Bobsk8

Guest

New Member

Bobsk8

Guest