What Can I Expect At 11 Weeks?
- Thread starter jason_els
- Start date
Hi again Jason... the 2 previous posts were made while I was making mine. You "get it". I see that from your post. You're just not happy about the reality of that. Lol You're not asking them if they want to be handled, you are letting them know "this is what we're doing right now". Then be patient. They were flown to you weren't they? Never know what kind of experience that was. It may take awhile to acclamate them comfortably to a car. I'll share something that may put this in prospective. The Irish terrier I picked out for a good friend and client had a miserable first 2 months, with his dad! He was aloof, rarely made eye contact, didn't like being pet. Didn't care about dad. Seemed to have a very sensitive stomach, loose stools, accidents in car in crate, at home. He ate everything in sight, the second dad turned his back on him. He somehow got out of a wire/steel crate in back of truck and destroyed wiring he had access to. He had several trips to vet for things like that. He bolted whnever off leash and took over an hour to catch in the yard one night. He "aggressively' ( their interpretation) lunged at other puppies, trying to take them dowm by the throat in the play group he took him to and was asked not to come back for awhile. The girl conducting these sessions at a well known school told him he should put a "prong collar on that pup, it's really out of control". He took the dog to work, Microsoft, with him periodically and was laughed at by co-workers each time he did a potty walk, the dog flattened out on lead and made him drag him acrooss the parking lot to the grass. He's raised and trained dogs. he's an intellegent, reasonable person. He was never abusive. But this was an Irish terrier and he'd become impatient!! The dog didn't like him and he was not bonding with it. He considered returning him to the breeder. I spent sometime training, as we are showing him. Training started with massage and being required to stay with me during this exercise. It entaled on leash, going wherever I went. It meant earning all food it got, simply by not fighting me and being attentive. There was a lot of hand feeding. It meant being very patient and while I was not going to hurt him, I was not going to respond to the flattening out on lead, lunging, growling or nipping. I had physical control of the dog at all times. Collar on, leash on, whenever it was out with me. You have to take the first step that most owners take for granted. Get the puppy to bond with you. Most puppies do that within the first few days home, others do not, so you have additional training to do. You don't have to love them, that will come in time. Right now, you haven't convinced these pups you're not going to harm them. And when they act out like this, they're little brains aren't working. It's fight or flight. (Right now you have "flight", later.... who knows) I'm sure they sense your displeasure though. Start some of the handling exercises and modify how you feed and house them and see if it doesn't help modify some of this behavior. I'm off now, sushi and sake tonight!!
Ouch! With my spelling in these posts one would think I've already had that sake'! Seriously, Jason... don't give up, this behavior is more common than you think and you will get through it. You have a harder road ahead because you bought 2, but they're here and it's time to take a step back and start over.
Well tonight I took them out without a leash in sight and they were fine. In fact I crouched down, called them, and they came bounding toward me (when they weren't distracted) very happily.
I live in a madhouse.
I'm going to spend some QT with them again tonight. They seem to have forgiven me for whatever awfulness happened with the leashes.
As to being on the ground, no these were not their first shots, this was the second round of shots. One or both pooped out of fear and vomited from either fear or carsickness. I don't think it was a conscious choice on their part to soil their crate. There was no urine in the crate and that is because I walked them before the trip.
They were driven to me part way from WV. It was a long drive for them.
I AM offering them everything I can. I've done next to no business since they've been here. I'm here, all the time, save the hour or two I go out to shop. Literally. My day revolves around providing for them. I'm living off of savings until I can devote time to do otherwise. That's ok, I planned for it.
Yes, "trust fund brats." For what it's worth, most of my best friends are trust fund brats. I love them anyway though you should see the way they treat their trustees. It's sort of a running joke. Sorry if it sounded crueler than it was meant.
I will call around to the bookstores within driving distance and see if it's there. Otherwise I shall order it. I do like to read before bed.
I will respond to otch1 later as I have more to say but have to do other things now. I'll be back later.
As always, my great thanks to everyone for their help. I am reading carefully.
I live in a madhouse.
I'm going to spend some QT with them again tonight. They seem to have forgiven me for whatever awfulness happened with the leashes.
As to being on the ground, no these were not their first shots, this was the second round of shots. One or both pooped out of fear and vomited from either fear or carsickness. I don't think it was a conscious choice on their part to soil their crate. There was no urine in the crate and that is because I walked them before the trip.
They were driven to me part way from WV. It was a long drive for them.
I AM offering them everything I can. I've done next to no business since they've been here. I'm here, all the time, save the hour or two I go out to shop. Literally. My day revolves around providing for them. I'm living off of savings until I can devote time to do otherwise. That's ok, I planned for it.
Yes, "trust fund brats." For what it's worth, most of my best friends are trust fund brats. I love them anyway though you should see the way they treat their trustees. It's sort of a running joke. Sorry if it sounded crueler than it was meant.
I will call around to the bookstores within driving distance and see if it's there. Otherwise I shall order it. I do like to read before bed.
I will respond to otch1 later as I have more to say but have to do other things now. I'll be back later.
As always, my great thanks to everyone for their help. I am reading carefully.
Jason, have they been on the leash before, aside from when they went to the vet? Also, do they normally wear collars (all the time)?
If they wear collars normally, I suggest getting one of those short leash "tabs" like are used in agility training (or just buy a cheap extra leash and cut it short). That way they can get used to the concept of something hanging off the collar without the additional stress of "I'm tripping over this long thin thing in the grass, AHHHH, AHHH!" and "OMG, the long thin thing is dragging me somewhere I DON'T WANT TO GO! AHHH, AHHHH!"
Once they're used to that, get a very lightweight leash and let them drag it around until they're comfortable with it. (Under supervision to make sure they don't get tangled, of course.) Only then should you pick up the other end of the leash. And be sure just to follow them around at first.
Believe me, I sympathize with the pup acting like it was the end of the world . . . I leash trained my cats. Cats do NOT like reaching the end of a leash. They especially hate it when the leash starts PULLING THEM BACK.
I've heard that it's easier to raise two kittens than one and harder to raise two puppies than one . . . *patpat* I also started out not feeling a connection to one of my pets . . . One of my kittens was extremely hand-shy and scared to death of me at first. Didn't want to be picked up. Was terrified of being petted. And also had a penchant for peeing on soft material, specifically my bed. I had trouble feeling a connection to him because we just didn't interact that much, especially in a positive way.
Now he's about a year old and I feel completely differently about him. He's become sweet and affectionate, likes tummy rubs, and looves being picked up and cuddled. He just needed time . . . I did too. Just hang in there, in the end it will all be worth it.
If they wear collars normally, I suggest getting one of those short leash "tabs" like are used in agility training (or just buy a cheap extra leash and cut it short). That way they can get used to the concept of something hanging off the collar without the additional stress of "I'm tripping over this long thin thing in the grass, AHHHH, AHHH!" and "OMG, the long thin thing is dragging me somewhere I DON'T WANT TO GO! AHHH, AHHHH!"
Once they're used to that, get a very lightweight leash and let them drag it around until they're comfortable with it. (Under supervision to make sure they don't get tangled, of course.) Only then should you pick up the other end of the leash. And be sure just to follow them around at first.
Believe me, I sympathize with the pup acting like it was the end of the world . . . I leash trained my cats. Cats do NOT like reaching the end of a leash. They especially hate it when the leash starts PULLING THEM BACK.
I've heard that it's easier to raise two kittens than one and harder to raise two puppies than one . . . *patpat* I also started out not feeling a connection to one of my pets . . . One of my kittens was extremely hand-shy and scared to death of me at first. Didn't want to be picked up. Was terrified of being petted. And also had a penchant for peeing on soft material, specifically my bed.
I had trouble feeling a connection to him because we just didn't interact that much, especially in a positive way. Now he's about a year old and I feel completely differently about him. He's become sweet and affectionate, likes tummy rubs, and looves being picked up and cuddled. He just needed time . . . I did too. Just hang in there, in the end it will all be worth it.
I'm glad OTCH has experience with this breed. Wonderful! I've never even seem Pumi or Puli IRL.
It sounds as if they are not the easiest breed in the world.
side note--I'm not sure why some people have to come on here and be so incredibly mean and discouraging. Can't a guy come on and post a vent or honestly say he is having trouble and get HELPFUL suggestions without scorn and judgement ? There are ways of telling someone something without being so mean about it. People are all for positive training of dogs but they are sure using some serious collar pops on the human.
I wonder if much of your problems and frustration are coming from having littermates. I don't KNOW that and I'm no expert in that regard but you are doing double the work and you are tired and frustrated. They are bonded to each other but not to you no matter how hard you try. Perhaps before you consider rehoming both you should seriously consider rehoming one?
My other thought was as OTCH said- are you inadvertently scaring them with a big booming voice, giving off frustarted vibes and just plain old being a guy. there's nothing you can do about the guy part but you can be aware of your body and your voice tone and volume etc How's your babytalk
I can shut my sensitive dog down in 2 seconds flat if I get frustrated. If I let out a frustrated sigh in agility because * I * have made a mistake, my dog deflates like a balloon and like you I have never laid a hand on this dog. He is just SENSITIVE. I have learned how to manage that- how to smile and laugh and get him tugging while I get feedback from my trainer or scratch my head etc but it took me a long time to realise how much of it was because of ME.
Have you thought about desensitizing them to the car? Putting them in giving them a treat and taking them out, turning the car on then off, then taking them out working up to tiny car rides, fun rides to good places etc.
I agree with OTCH though--esp after reading your last entry-- project #1
is forging a bond and getting these little peanuts to bond with you. Without that relationship and trust nothing else will come.
It sounds as if they are not the easiest breed in the world.
side note--I'm not sure why some people have to come on here and be so incredibly mean and discouraging. Can't a guy come on and post a vent or honestly say he is having trouble and get HELPFUL suggestions without scorn and judgement ? There are ways of telling someone something without being so mean about it. People are all for positive training of dogs but they are sure using some serious collar pops on the human.
I wonder if much of your problems and frustration are coming from having littermates. I don't KNOW that and I'm no expert in that regard but you are doing double the work and you are tired and frustrated. They are bonded to each other but not to you no matter how hard you try. Perhaps before you consider rehoming both you should seriously consider rehoming one?
My other thought was as OTCH said- are you inadvertently scaring them with a big booming voice, giving off frustarted vibes and just plain old being a guy. there's nothing you can do about the guy part but you can be aware of your body and your voice tone and volume etc How's your babytalk
I can shut my sensitive dog down in 2 seconds flat if I get frustrated. If I let out a frustrated sigh in agility because * I * have made a mistake, my dog deflates like a balloon and like you I have never laid a hand on this dog. He is just SENSITIVE. I have learned how to manage that- how to smile and laugh and get him tugging while I get feedback from my trainer or scratch my head etc but it took me a long time to realise how much of it was because of ME.
Have you thought about desensitizing them to the car? Putting them in giving them a treat and taking them out, turning the car on then off, then taking them out working up to tiny car rides, fun rides to good places etc.
I agree with OTCH though--esp after reading your last entry-- project #1
is forging a bond and getting these little peanuts to bond with you. Without that relationship and trust nothing else will come.
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Well I see it differently I guess. As I read through this thread and some others it sometimes sounds like some people are really frustrated with the OP (which I don't really get) and are being downright snotty about it. I don't see him shooting anything down so much as asking questions in order to try and understand or to say what's not seeming to work and get help.
I'm not saying people should stop helping. I'm saying they should attempt to make their replies a little less nasty or judgemental sounding. If people were that mean sounding to me when I asked for help, I wouldn't be coming back here.
I'm not saying people should stop helping. I'm saying they should attempt to make their replies a little less nasty or judgemental sounding. If people were that mean sounding to me when I asked for help, I wouldn't be coming back here.
Oh I know it's me. That's where my frustration is. It's not the dogs, it's me. They just want to please.
Get this. Since I've been bending way down with my hands on my knees making goo-goo speak they've been running to me. It's very odd. It's like the miserable afternoon never happened. We get into the house and Tweeter goes to pee in the hall. I tried to scoop him but no luck. He took off down the hall dashing all over the place to get away from me. I finally got him and put him outside. He didn't pee. So I coaxed him back inside and just sat down on the kitchen floor and he came right up to me, crawled in my lap, and just lay there letting me stroke and pet him. It was very sweet.
I'm taking Otch1's advice and chucking the training for the weekend. We'll just have fun time and let it go at that.
Get this. Since I've been bending way down with my hands on my knees making goo-goo speak they've been running to me. It's very odd. It's like the miserable afternoon never happened. We get into the house and Tweeter goes to pee in the hall. I tried to scoop him but no luck. He took off down the hall dashing all over the place to get away from me. I finally got him and put him outside. He didn't pee. So I coaxed him back inside and just sat down on the kitchen floor and he came right up to me, crawled in my lap, and just lay there letting me stroke and pet him. It was very sweet.
I'm taking Otch1's advice and chucking the training for the weekend. We'll just have fun time and let it go at that.
Please, I'm not shooting down anyone. I am discouraged, I admit it. It's why I posted in the first place. I'm trying different things, but I am consistent with the time schedule and the training and the feeding. What I'm looking for are things to improve the situation; ideas on how to improve things. People told me to separate the dogs, I did so. People tell me to do things with them separately, I did so. People suggested various toys and treats, I bought them. People recommended a less rigorous vaccination schedule and to avoid preservatives, I told my vet to do this. People have told me to read books, I'm reading them. People have told me what grooming items to get, I bought them. People have suggested methods of training, I'm learning them. People have told me how to act and speak to the dogs, I'm doing it.
People here have been very generous with their time, knowledge, and effort. This is why I make an effort to thank everyone for their help. Not everything works and I'm sure my execution of the instructions is far from perfect, but I am listening and I am acting on the advice I receive.
It's a lot of work but while I am frustrated to be sure, I haven't given-up. Sometimes I'm more down on myself than others. I have bad days too.
Tristan and Max were my first littermates. Tristan was mine and Max belonged to my roommate. They were inseparable too but we trained them separately and it worked out fine. They were Chesapeakes. Both grew into loving, kind, sweet dogs who loved to play, were absolutely trustworthy with anyone, were never aggressive, never bit, always obedient, and had no hang-ups. I trusted Tristan with anybody. He was one of those rare dogs who had friends of his own. Kids and adults would come and ask to play with him. They were magnificent dogs in every way and I miss them.
I've never told anyone this but I don't care who knows it.
Tristan contracted lymphoma and died just after his fifth birthday. I was a ruin because that dog saw me threw the worst personal period of my life though I didn't deserve it. Before the vet came to euthanize him I took him back around the house, just the two of us, and I asked him if he would come and be with me three more times in my life when I needed him.
I've never asked it but when I knew I was finally getting another dog I wondered if I wasn't being unfaithful, like a widower remarrying. A few days before I collected these guys I was in that state between sleep and wake and I sensed Tristan was there. His scent, his movement, I could see him perfectly, re-remembering what it felt like to have him lying next to me, of his movements, the sound of his breathing. An overwhelming rush of joyful sadness just overcame me as I felt his peaceful presence once again after so long. And then suddenly, it was all just a memory again and I ran to my keepsake box and took out his collar, wanting very much to just hold it as the only tangible thing I had left of him.
As usual, I didn't have to ask him. he knew I needed him and he came to me in my time of need.
Or so I imagined. So I hoped.
People here have been very generous with their time, knowledge, and effort. This is why I make an effort to thank everyone for their help. Not everything works and I'm sure my execution of the instructions is far from perfect, but I am listening and I am acting on the advice I receive.
It's a lot of work but while I am frustrated to be sure, I haven't given-up. Sometimes I'm more down on myself than others. I have bad days too.
Tristan and Max were my first littermates. Tristan was mine and Max belonged to my roommate. They were inseparable too but we trained them separately and it worked out fine. They were Chesapeakes. Both grew into loving, kind, sweet dogs who loved to play, were absolutely trustworthy with anyone, were never aggressive, never bit, always obedient, and had no hang-ups. I trusted Tristan with anybody. He was one of those rare dogs who had friends of his own. Kids and adults would come and ask to play with him. They were magnificent dogs in every way and I miss them.
I've never told anyone this but I don't care who knows it.
Tristan contracted lymphoma and died just after his fifth birthday. I was a ruin because that dog saw me threw the worst personal period of my life though I didn't deserve it. Before the vet came to euthanize him I took him back around the house, just the two of us, and I asked him if he would come and be with me three more times in my life when I needed him.
I've never asked it but when I knew I was finally getting another dog I wondered if I wasn't being unfaithful, like a widower remarrying. A few days before I collected these guys I was in that state between sleep and wake and I sensed Tristan was there. His scent, his movement, I could see him perfectly, re-remembering what it felt like to have him lying next to me, of his movements, the sound of his breathing. An overwhelming rush of joyful sadness just overcame me as I felt his peaceful presence once again after so long. And then suddenly, it was all just a memory again and I ran to my keepsake box and took out his collar, wanting very much to just hold it as the only tangible thing I had left of him.
As usual, I didn't have to ask him. he knew I needed him and he came to me in my time of need.
Or so I imagined. So I hoped.
Hey Jason... you either had that martini while I was gone or you just showed your sensitive side. I knew it was there! Lol Now, lighten up, please follow my advise, stop letting them off leash too soon and have a good weekend. Use your training tools, leash crate, bait and practice thoose handling exercises. A dog should fit into your life, not you into theirs.
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Hi Jason -
I just read through this entire thread and I'd like to add my thoughts on it.
First of all, I can relate to some of what you're going through. I took on a 5 month old shepherd several years back who was the most frightened pup I'd ever seen. I don't know how many times I thought "OMG, what a huge mistake this was!". She was afraid of everything. If I raised my voice, she cringed. She pooped and peed in her pen and then would spin nervously, spreading the poop everywhere. I didn't enjoy her at first. But I made a commitment and it was my responsibility to deal with it one way or the other.
These are the things I'd recommend to you regarding your pups.
The most important part of training is to build a relationship with your pups. This has to be done one-on-one and it has to be done in a calm and happy manner. Using the higher silly voice is a good step (as you're already seeing). Show your pups that you are the one to come to when they want companionship.
First - let them be puppies and don't stress about the training. If the clicker is frustrating you, set it aside. You don't need it in order to housebreak or even leash train. Spend the majority of your time enjoying these pups, but do most of it separately. Play with them. Explore their personalities and find out what motivates them. You NEED to know this in order for positive training to work. Try a variety of treats: chicken breast lightly dusted with garlic, microwaved and cut into tiny pieces; beef heart prepared the same way; vienna sausages; liverwurst; tuna fish; mozzerella cheese in tiny pieces, etc. Find out what they like to do and consider using that for a motivator. For instance, if they really like to go out the door, then you may use opening the door as a reward for walking to the door on-leash. Every dog is motivated by something and you need to figure out what it is.
Second - the pups do need to be separated and that means inside and outside of the house. This doesn't mean they can't get together and play some everyday, but they shouldn't sleep together, walk together, potty together, etc. The problem with multiple puppies is that they have little need for a human if their sibling is there with them. You will create the need/desire to be with you by separating them and then being there for each puppy.
Third - housebreaking - no freedom in the house unless the puppy has JUST pottied outside. Use crates, ex-pens, long lines, etc. Use a long line outside. If the pup gets to the end of the long line and throws a fit, just stand there quietly and watch him. Don't give in to it. Eventually the pup will move to a place where he isn't pulling against the leash and the tantrum will end. I wouldn't use any sort of conciliatory voice or words while he's throwing the fit - this can easily be construed as reinforcement of the trantrum by the puppy.
IF you absolutely don't want to use the long line, then get a pen. If not a real chainlink style pen, buy an exercise pen and set it up outside. Take the pup directly to the pen and put him in to potty. If he doesn't potty in a reasonable amount of time, take him back inside and put him back into a confined area. Don't allow him to run into the house - this should all be controlled but controlled in a calm and quiet way. If the puppy potties in the house, it's 100% your fault.
Fourth - leash training - once you find out what motivates your dog, use it as a reinforcement in leash training. This works best if you've found a good treat your puppy likes (by the way, don't free-feed .. if you are, you will have a lot more trouble in training with treats). Take the really special treat you've found the pup likes, put the leash on the pup and then stick that treat right at your puppy's nose and back up a step or two while praising constantly. Let the pup have little nibbles of the treat. Then lift your hand a bit so the pup can't quite reach it and back up another step or two, praising like crazy as the pup follows - and give it another nibble of the treat. Back around your living room or hallway with the pup following in front of you and reward frequently. The first step to leash training is to teach the pup to follow you.
If the pup goes to the end of the leash, stand there and be quiet. Let him throw a fit. Don't react, don't reassure, don't scold, just let him figure out that fighting the leash isn't going to work. Once he stops fighting, step forward a bit to give him some slack and encourage him to come to you (even if you have to lure with the treat) and then reward him when he gets to you.
Not using the leash because the puppies don't like it is never going to teach them how to handle it. When the puppy fights the leash, don't think of it as a bad thing - observe, learn, let the pup work through it and simply be an observer UNTIL the pup offers a behavior you like (calming down, moving toward you, etc.). And then praise and reward!
Fifth - car rides - this needs to be done gradually and DAILY. Start with putting each pup (individually) into a crate in the car and then feeding them a yummy treat. Then take them out. Do this a couple of times a day for a few days at least. Then put them in, shut the car door and start the car. Don't go anywhere. Turn the car off and let the pup out (but wait for the pup to be quiet and calm if he's fussing). Do this a couple of times a day for a few days. Then drive down the driveway only. Again, for a few days. Gradually lengthen the trips.
It may take a long time before they can travel in a car without fear behaviors and without vomiting. If you've ever been car-sick, you'll know how miserable it is. As far as their fussing and being upset, I'm sure that having two of them makes it worse because they encourage each other. One gets upset, the other does too and it just gets worse and worse. By separating them and working on the car rides one at a time you will help avoid the problem of having them react to each other.
I've been teaching obedience classes for a LONG time and I just don't recommend to people to get two puppies at once. It is twice the work and often ends up with major problems because puppies naturally bond to each other. It takes a huge amount of commitment in order to make it work. I hope that you have the commitment - if you feel this is going to be too much for you, it is much more fair to the pups to rehome one now and not after it's already developed problems. It would be good for you to seriously look at your feelings on this.
Re-read otch1's recommendations .. she makes a lot of sense.
By the way, you'll get a lot of suggestions and training advice from a large variety of people. Some of the advice contradicts other advice. You can't try to do everything. Even the books you're going to read will contradict each other at times. You need to really settle into a course of action and follow that consistently and patiently in order to see results. If you try one thing for a couple of days and switch because you're not seeing quick results, you will just screw up those pups. Often it takes weeks to get consistent results. So please read through the recommendations and decide what you're going to do and then stick with it for awhile.
Good luck and I hope that things get better soon -
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
By the way, the light colored shepherd in my signature is the dog I talked about at the beginning of my post. It took a long time and a LOT of patience and persistence on my part, but she turned out to be a highly bonded, loving girl who was very responsive and trusting.
I just read through this entire thread and I'd like to add my thoughts on it.
First of all, I can relate to some of what you're going through. I took on a 5 month old shepherd several years back who was the most frightened pup I'd ever seen. I don't know how many times I thought "OMG, what a huge mistake this was!". She was afraid of everything. If I raised my voice, she cringed. She pooped and peed in her pen and then would spin nervously, spreading the poop everywhere. I didn't enjoy her at first. But I made a commitment and it was my responsibility to deal with it one way or the other.
These are the things I'd recommend to you regarding your pups.
The most important part of training is to build a relationship with your pups. This has to be done one-on-one and it has to be done in a calm and happy manner. Using the higher silly voice is a good step (as you're already seeing). Show your pups that you are the one to come to when they want companionship.
First - let them be puppies and don't stress about the training. If the clicker is frustrating you, set it aside. You don't need it in order to housebreak or even leash train. Spend the majority of your time enjoying these pups, but do most of it separately. Play with them. Explore their personalities and find out what motivates them. You NEED to know this in order for positive training to work. Try a variety of treats: chicken breast lightly dusted with garlic, microwaved and cut into tiny pieces; beef heart prepared the same way; vienna sausages; liverwurst; tuna fish; mozzerella cheese in tiny pieces, etc. Find out what they like to do and consider using that for a motivator. For instance, if they really like to go out the door, then you may use opening the door as a reward for walking to the door on-leash. Every dog is motivated by something and you need to figure out what it is.
Second - the pups do need to be separated and that means inside and outside of the house. This doesn't mean they can't get together and play some everyday, but they shouldn't sleep together, walk together, potty together, etc. The problem with multiple puppies is that they have little need for a human if their sibling is there with them. You will create the need/desire to be with you by separating them and then being there for each puppy.
Third - housebreaking - no freedom in the house unless the puppy has JUST pottied outside. Use crates, ex-pens, long lines, etc. Use a long line outside. If the pup gets to the end of the long line and throws a fit, just stand there quietly and watch him. Don't give in to it. Eventually the pup will move to a place where he isn't pulling against the leash and the tantrum will end. I wouldn't use any sort of conciliatory voice or words while he's throwing the fit - this can easily be construed as reinforcement of the trantrum by the puppy.
IF you absolutely don't want to use the long line, then get a pen. If not a real chainlink style pen, buy an exercise pen and set it up outside. Take the pup directly to the pen and put him in to potty. If he doesn't potty in a reasonable amount of time, take him back inside and put him back into a confined area. Don't allow him to run into the house - this should all be controlled but controlled in a calm and quiet way. If the puppy potties in the house, it's 100% your fault.
Fourth - leash training - once you find out what motivates your dog, use it as a reinforcement in leash training. This works best if you've found a good treat your puppy likes (by the way, don't free-feed .. if you are, you will have a lot more trouble in training with treats). Take the really special treat you've found the pup likes, put the leash on the pup and then stick that treat right at your puppy's nose and back up a step or two while praising constantly. Let the pup have little nibbles of the treat. Then lift your hand a bit so the pup can't quite reach it and back up another step or two, praising like crazy as the pup follows - and give it another nibble of the treat. Back around your living room or hallway with the pup following in front of you and reward frequently. The first step to leash training is to teach the pup to follow you.
If the pup goes to the end of the leash, stand there and be quiet. Let him throw a fit. Don't react, don't reassure, don't scold, just let him figure out that fighting the leash isn't going to work. Once he stops fighting, step forward a bit to give him some slack and encourage him to come to you (even if you have to lure with the treat) and then reward him when he gets to you.
Not using the leash because the puppies don't like it is never going to teach them how to handle it. When the puppy fights the leash, don't think of it as a bad thing - observe, learn, let the pup work through it and simply be an observer UNTIL the pup offers a behavior you like (calming down, moving toward you, etc.). And then praise and reward!
Fifth - car rides - this needs to be done gradually and DAILY. Start with putting each pup (individually) into a crate in the car and then feeding them a yummy treat. Then take them out. Do this a couple of times a day for a few days at least. Then put them in, shut the car door and start the car. Don't go anywhere. Turn the car off and let the pup out (but wait for the pup to be quiet and calm if he's fussing). Do this a couple of times a day for a few days. Then drive down the driveway only. Again, for a few days. Gradually lengthen the trips.
It may take a long time before they can travel in a car without fear behaviors and without vomiting. If you've ever been car-sick, you'll know how miserable it is. As far as their fussing and being upset, I'm sure that having two of them makes it worse because they encourage each other. One gets upset, the other does too and it just gets worse and worse. By separating them and working on the car rides one at a time you will help avoid the problem of having them react to each other.
I've been teaching obedience classes for a LONG time and I just don't recommend to people to get two puppies at once. It is twice the work and often ends up with major problems because puppies naturally bond to each other. It takes a huge amount of commitment in order to make it work. I hope that you have the commitment - if you feel this is going to be too much for you, it is much more fair to the pups to rehome one now and not after it's already developed problems. It would be good for you to seriously look at your feelings on this.
Re-read otch1's recommendations .. she makes a lot of sense.
By the way, you'll get a lot of suggestions and training advice from a large variety of people. Some of the advice contradicts other advice. You can't try to do everything. Even the books you're going to read will contradict each other at times. You need to really settle into a course of action and follow that consistently and patiently in order to see results. If you try one thing for a couple of days and switch because you're not seeing quick results, you will just screw up those pups. Often it takes weeks to get consistent results. So please read through the recommendations and decide what you're going to do and then stick with it for awhile.
Good luck and I hope that things get better soon -
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
By the way, the light colored shepherd in my signature is the dog I talked about at the beginning of my post. It took a long time and a LOT of patience and persistence on my part, but she turned out to be a highly bonded, loving girl who was very responsive and trusting.
Once again I receive a smug response from you. Why do you bother to reply? Is it merely to make yourself feel superior? Really, if you can't be helpful then why bother? Comments like this do nothing for me or anyone else reading the thread. If it's an attempt to make me feel ashamed then sorry, it won't work. I don't know you from Adam and, after your posts, don't care to. So far you've given me no information worth earning my respect to make me care about what you think.
I know you're a mod and I can't block your posts but may I seriously suggest that if you can't offer something useful that you simply refrain from saying anything? I like Chazhound and there are some great people but I don't have to stay here and if you continue to disparage me for your own amusement I won't.
I know you're a mod and I can't block your posts but may I seriously suggest that if you can't offer something useful that you simply refrain from saying anything? I like Chazhound and there are some great people but I don't have to stay here and if you continue to disparage me for your own amusement I won't.
In case my previous post gets me banned , I'd like to thank everyone for being so helpful. Sam, otch1, dr2little, and Buddy's Parents have gone well out of their way to offer assistance and I'm already seeing a difference with the wise advice they've given me.
I just wrote the folks in the breed club and asked them about littermate syndrome and what they think about it. If they believe rehoming one of them is best then I'll do it. Naturally I feel this presents me with a Sophie's Choice, but if it means having two unhappy dogs together or two happy dogs apart, then I will do it. At least they didn't end-up someplace dreadful and if one goes to another home then it won't be a mill someplace. The breed club and myself will see to that.
So far this weekend has gone well, today has been great. The books I ordered from Amazon that they couldn't fulfill are now also unfulfillable by Barnes & Noble. It seems nobody has the titles in stock.
, I'd like to thank everyone for being so helpful. Sam, otch1, dr2little, and Buddy's Parents have gone well out of their way to offer assistance and I'm already seeing a difference with the wise advice they've given me.I just wrote the folks in the breed club and asked them about littermate syndrome and what they think about it. If they believe rehoming one of them is best then I'll do it. Naturally I feel this presents me with a Sophie's Choice, but if it means having two unhappy dogs together or two happy dogs apart, then I will do it. At least they didn't end-up someplace dreadful and if one goes to another home then it won't be a mill someplace. The breed club and myself will see to that.
So far this weekend has gone well, today has been great. The books I ordered from Amazon that they couldn't fulfill are now also unfulfillable by Barnes & Noble.
It seems nobody has the titles in stock.