What Can I Expect At 11 Weeks?

[jason_els]

I've been looking all over for some idea of what's age appropriate for an 11 week old to be trained in. I'm pretty confused because the term, "puppy," ranges over a long time and gives little indication of what commands are reasonable for a pup to learn at a certain age.

I've been working with recall but it's tough with only me to do the training. I can't do the recall game that many here seem to like. Even if I am doing that, am I expecting too much for a 10-11 week old pup?

Clicker training hasn't been easy. I've tried it but sometimes they respond to the clicker and sometimes they don't. I've clicked and had them just run off (like after pooping) and I've clicked and they've come running to me for a treat. Alone, in the kitchen, they each respond just fine to the clicker, but outdoors there are a lot of distractions and I obviously can't housetrain inside.

Today has been bad for both of them. I took Boomer out to poop and he came out and followed me to the kitchen door but then just took off back down the hall to my bedroom and promptly pooped on the rug! He's NEVER pooped on the rug before though Tweeter has peed on it and I thought it was cleaned but I guess not. I've taken-up the rug so now there are no rugs in their path. I then took out Tweeter. He promptly peed and I clicked and praised and then he took off rather than come and collect his treat. I tried calling him, waving the treat bag, but he just wanted to chew on the junipers next to the house. I could NOT get him to respond. I went to pick him up, no go. I waved the treat bag at him, nope. He kept running away. Finally I just closed the door and let him sit outside alone for 5-10 minutes on the principle that if he disobeys then he gets isolated. I went back and called him once and he bolted in!

Now I understand that with recall you should keep them on a long line and only give the command once. What do you do after that when they won't respond? Just reel them in? I would think that would make them leash-shy later on when we try to do leash training. They're ok with dragging a leash in the house now, I don't want them to see the leash as an unpleasant thing. Right now if I try to use it outside to walk them they thrash or squat or focus so much on the leash that they don't go poop or pee. Then I take it off and they run and hide from me as soon as I get back inside. I feel like a monster. Worse, this the fear period. I have enough problems with car rides being nightmares of whining, screaming, pooping, and vomiting.

I've hesitated using a long line because of all the bushes near the house and the fear they'll get tangled in the bushes with it. I want them to continue to use a wooded area near the house but it's full of trees and they could just as easily get wound-around things there. I don't want to make the poopee place too far from the house because sometimes they just have to GO RIGHT NOW.

I don't know who said that pre-adolescent puppies will stick to you like glue. Mine don't. They're quite happy to take off into the bushes or wander out of my sight around the house or otherwise ignore I exist for quite some time. Either I'm doing something wrong or I am just expecting too much from them at this age. I don't know which.

Many thanks!

 

[SisMorphine]

Sorry I am unfamiliar with your pups. What breed are they? Are they littermates?

 

[sam]

A couple of thoughts

- It's normal for there to be times that a dog will prefer sniffing, playing and exploring over a treat.
It's up to YOU as the trainer to know your dog and what's going to be a time when he isn't likely to come and *DON'T call him then*-- or don't use your specific recall cue. That's untraining-- teaching them to ignore you. Think of any skill we are training in levels like preschool vs Uni level skills. Coming when called in the house with little else distracting them-- that's a preschool level recall. Coming when called when they are chasing another dog or doing something they are really revved about or interested in-- that's Phd level recall. You must train the dog at HIS level. You have to BUILD recall gradually like you are laying the foundation of a house.


If you want to call your dogs, but you don't think or don't know if they will come, use a different word or phrase or just go get them. For my dogs "let's go" means we're leaving, finish what you're doing and come to the van. "COME" means I don't care if you have a front foot in the lake and you're dying of the heat, turn around and RUN to me now. I have built that level of recall very carefully and gradually, peice by peice. They still come pretty quick on "let's go" because I use that as we are heading out the dooor etc- it means mostly good things to them but it's not a recall cue per se.

If I'm still training my recall, my dog trails a long line so in case I guess wrong, I can go grab my line, get to the dog, put a treat right in front of hisr nose and do a 2ft recall - without cueing again. I just lure them come forward towards the treat and sit. You'd better have something they REEEEALLY want at times like that. OR I can not use a recall word and just lead them away-- that's your better option if you aren't sure they'll come.

Don't beg or bribe your dog to come to you by waving treat bags after a failed recall etc. Bribing is very different form rewarding and it doesn't work very well- think of it like double commanding - only worse.

I try very hard to never have the recall word mean 'the end of something fun' when I am still training it. At a certain point it means a brief interuption in the fun while you come to me, get your reward and then I'll send you back to the fun with a "ok go play!" That's a very powerful tool to use- called the Premack Principle ie call the dog away from his buddies, give him a treat and send him back to them so they don't associate your recall word with the end of playtime..

I don't go on to the next level of distraction until the previous is rock solid-- meaning my dogs are FLYING to me and are 99.99% reliable.

If you don't think the dogs are in a situation where they want the treat- don't click, just praise. Not everything has to be clicked. If you woohooo good dog them and they *do* come to you, you can give them the treat. Just don't gamble and be wrong.

I think you might be overdoing it with the clicker. The last thing you want is for that click to lose it's meaning and be something they don't care about. There also shouldn't be a time delay (esp in the early days of training, or with a young dog) between click and reward. Delivery of reward should be within a second maaybe two. I don't think I would be clicking for things like going back in the pen- unless they are doing it on cue or as a very specific behavior-you can still praise them and toss a treat. Focus on just a couple behaviors at a time but still praise and reward good things.

Keep in mind things lose value if they are too easily available or if we are satiated with it.That's true wether it's affection food or anything else. I am highly motivated by pizza- but not if I've just eaten 5 peices- then offering me pizza might make me recoil in horror. It's the animal who decides what's reinforcing and what motivated them -- it's our job to know what does and doesn't or to put in the time to condition something to be rewarding.

You can get an indoor drag line or a really thin long cord rather than a typical leash or long line. www.cleanrun.com sells them. That might work better for your wee boys to keep them from being tangled and so they aren't pulling any extra weight. It's sort of like a really long, round shoelace.

I wouldn't worry too much about what's appropriate for a typical 11wk old pup-that varies so much from breed to breed, dog to dog and you also have the disadvantage of having two pups at one time. Just really look at what you're doing, evaluate what's working, what's not, and go from there. The difference between a good trainer and a not so good one is the ability to really see what effect we are having and tweak things that aren't working.

Hope that helps

 

[dr2little]

I've been looking all over for some idea of what's age appropriate for an 11 week old to be trained in. I'm pretty confused because the term, "puppy," ranges over a long time and gives little indication of what commands are reasonable for a pup to learn at a certain age.

I've been working with recall but it's tough with only me to do the training. I can't do the recall game that many here seem to like. Even if I am doing that, am I expecting too much for a 10-11 week old pup?

The best way to train recall with two pups (if you have to train them toghether) is to ONLY call them when they're already on their way to you or you're sure they'll come...then reward (treats or fun and games..always lots of praise). Where we go wrong is we wait for the pup/s to be interested in a competing motivator and then we call them, knowing full well that they probably WON'T come. We also call them to do things that they may not find rewarding, like being brushed, put in a kennel or even taken inside from out doors. If you could focus on calling them ONLY when you know that they'll come so that you can build the process of hearing their name called, them coming EVER TIME, and being rewarded...your success will build quite quickly.

You can also play recall games like hide and seek in safe environments, even with 2 puppies...you just have to be a little more creative

Clicker training hasn't been easy. I've tried it but sometimes they respond to the clicker and sometimes they don't. I've clicked and had them just run off (like after pooping) and I've clicked and they've come running to me for a treat. Alone, in the kitchen, they each respond just fine to the clicker, but outdoors there are a lot of distractions and I obviously can't housetrain inside.

I'm not sure that you're understanding clicker training. The clicker is not to be used to call your dog but rather as a reward marker, clicking immediately when a behavior has been completed. Clickers are not really recommended for house training because of the timing needed and the chances of interrupting elimination.
Do you have any good clicker books? I can give you a list of great ones and you may also want to check out www.clickersolutions.com , it's a great site for everything clicker.

Today has been bad for both of them. I took Boomer out to poop and he came out and followed me to the kitchen door but then just took off back down the hall to my bedroom and promptly pooped on the rug! He's NEVER pooped on the rug before though Tweeter has peed on it and I thought it was cleaned but I guess not. I've taken-up the rug so now there are no rugs in their path. I then took out Tweeter. He promptly peed and I clicked and praised and then he took off rather than come and collect his treat. I tried calling him, waving the treat bag, but he just wanted to chew on the junipers next to the house. I could NOT get him to respond. I went to pick him up, no go. I waved the treat bag at him, nope. He kept running away. Finally I just closed the door and let him sit outside alone for 5-10 minutes on the principle that if he disobeys then he gets isolated. I went back and called him once and he bolted in!

Having 2 puppies is so much more work than one but if you can do things one at a time as much as possible, you'll have more success.

Now I understand that with recall you should keep them on a long line and only give the command once. What do you do after that when they won't respond? Just reel them in? I would think that would make them leash-shy later on when we try to do leash training. They're ok with dragging a leash in the house now, I don't want them to see the leash as an unpleasant thing. Right now if I try to use it outside to walk them they thrash or squat or focus so much on the leash that they don't go poop or pee. Then I take it off and they run and hide from me as soon as I get back inside. I feel like a monster. Worse, this the fear period. I have enough problems with car rides being nightmares of whining, screaming, pooping, and vomiting.

Long line training should be fun. Even if you do have to reel them in, you should be so upbeat and happy/silly while doing it so that they see no negatives associated with coming to you, on their own steam..or with help.

As far as the car goes, are you confining them or are they loose in the car? This can make a huge difference.

I've hesitated using a long line because of all the bushes near the house and the fear they'll get tangled in the bushes with it. I want them to continue to use a wooded area near the house but it's full of trees and they could just as easily get wound-around things there. I don't want to make the poopee place too far from the house because sometimes they just have to GO RIGHT NOW.

I don't know who said that pre-adolescent puppies will stick to you like glue. Mine don't. They're quite happy to take off into the bushes or wander out of my sight around the house or otherwise ignore I exist for quite some time. Either I'm doing something wrong or I am just expecting too much from them at this age. I don't know which.

Many young pups WILL stick to their owners like glue but I almost see this as a slight drawback. It gives many owners the misguided confidence to allow more off leash exploration and many owners are unprepared for the bolting that is often inevidable once the puppy starts to feel more independent.
I wouldn't get too discouraged. If you're using the safety line and you keep working on recall in a patient and fun way, it WILL come.
You can also add an Emergency recall to ensure that they have some safety insurance...here's the link - http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36494&highlight=emergency+recall

 

[jason_els]

I'm not sure that you're understanding clicker training. The clicker is not to be used to call your dog but rather as a reward marker, clicking immediately when a behavior has been completed.

Yes, I'm using it as a marker. When they poop or pee I wait to see something on the way out before I click and say, "Go poop/pee!" and then I wait for them to finish to give them a treat but sometimes they just take off right after. I try to say the command and click exactly as they perform the command. "Come inside" is when they're leaping over the threshold to come into the kitchen. I click and reward right away. They're good with that command.

The best way to train recall with two pups (if you have to train them together) is to ONLY call them when they're already on their way to you or you're sure they'll come

I'm training them separately so they're able to focus on me better (HA!). I will click and treat during their mutual play time because if they happen to eliminate I want to always to mark the behavior.

If you could focus on calling them ONLY when you know that they'll come so that you can build the process of hearing their name called, them coming EVERY TIME, and being rewarded...your success will build quite quickly.

That's so hard to predict. I started with them in the kitchen when it's quiet, one on one. Get attention/look at me when name is called, click and treat. Same with come. In the kitchen it's generally reliable but not always. The slightest distraction, one I may not even see or hear, pulls them away very quickly.

Long line training should be fun. Even if you do have to reel them in, you should be so upbeat and happy/silly while doing it so that they see no negatives associated with coming to you, on their own steam..or with help.

Okey, I'll do that. It sucks in the middle of the night in single digit temperatures with 15mph winds though. Try being happy in that!

As far as the car goes, are you confining them or are they loose in the car? This can make a huge difference.

I've tried loose, I've tried in separate small carriers that barely allow movement to turn around, I've tried putting them together in the same crate, I've tried putting them in separate crates. I've brought toys, turned-on soothing music, or just talking. It's all vomit and poop which is awful because it breaks the taboo on soiling the crate. It's fright poop too because there's usually very little, not the usual need-to-really-go size poop and I always make sure they pee before we go someplace. Unfortunately the vet is 20 miles away and they're already crying by the end of the driveway.

Emergency recall? I'd be happy with one that works half the time! :lol-sign:

 

[sam]

I missed the part about reeling them in or the thrashing on leash.

AS I desribed I don't reel them in I do a 2ft (or 2inch if need be) recall. Or go get them pick up the line go to them turn to face the same direction (rather than squared off facing them) and walk away saying "let's go" in a happy voice.

I wouldn't see the thrashing and carrying on while on lead as a fearful thing as much as an "I don't like this" protest or tantrum. I would totally ignore that behavior and let it extinguish itself. If you have them on a long line and are allowing them to sniff and do what they like and they are carrying on because they don't like the presence of the long lead, OH WELL. Long lines and leashes are a fact of life just as rules and limitations are for kids. Part of being a child or a puppy is learning to cope with frustration and learning that you can't always have what you want the second you want it. I like to set things up so that Gimme gimmee never gets and polite behavior ALWAYS gets. Dogs will try out all sorts of things as they try to figure out what works to get what tey want in life. You don't need to punish out what you don't like but make darned sure you aren't rewarding / making it WORK for them or allowing it to be rewarded by the environment.

 

[TopShelfPets]

if you have crates, i would suggest working with the pups one at a time. put one in its crate and take the other into another room, out of earshot of the pup in the crate.

Don't reel the dog in, like a bass, it will fight you. Just tug the line to get the dogs attention. Here's tips (section headers) from this book: http://www.amazon.com/Living-Dog-Br...f=sr_1_24/104-9153774-7052706?ie=UTF8&s=books
I would suggest getting SOME kind of book. Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson is reccomended here frequently.

Keep lessons short
Keep lessons enjoyable
Start as you mean to continue
Train when your dog's mind is alert
Avoid distractions
Always finish with fun
Don't get flustered

Start with the food bowl. If you feed the puppies regularly, like they know when the food is coming, use that. Crouch down a short distance away, show them the food bowl, say their name(s) and when they start to move toward you, say "come". As the pup approaches, say "good (dog's name)" enthusiastically. Give them the food.

at various points throughout the day, do the same thing with a piece of kibble or treat in one hand and the clicker in the other. once the dog has come, click/treat.

 

[jason_els]

I try very hard to never have the recall word mean 'the end of something fun' when I am still training it. At a certain point it means a brief interruption in the fun while you come to me, get your reward and then I'll send you back to the fun with a "ok go play!" That's a very powerful tool to use- called the Premack Principle ie call the dog away from his buddies, give him a treat and send him back to them so they don't associate your recall word with the end of playtime..

OK, I guess I am using the clicker for too many things and I suppose, "come here," has lost its value. I'll have to think of a different word and train myself to use it instead.

I don't know about what to do with the end of playtime. Any time they're outside is playtime for them. It doesn't matter if it's near zero and windy and sleeting (who in their right mind breeds dogs to be born in winter??? I ask you!). It could take 10-15 minutes before they walk up to me to go inside (when I'm pretty much guaranteed a recall), and longer when the weather's nicer. Again, though, it's hard to know when they'll be distracted and when they won't. A speck of dirt on the floor, something I can't hear, or just an intriguing odor from something I can't smell could pull them away in a split second. Their attention span is pretty minimal from what I can tell.

They have the reputation of being as intelligent as the puli and pulik, like most herding dogs, are pretty brainy as dogs go. They're very good about the housetraining and I'm pretty amazed they've had so few accidents though this business of Boomer running back the length of the house to poop on my rug just as I was opening the door to let him out, just smacked of spite. I know everyone says dogs can't be spiteful but I have no other explanation for it.

I guess it's back to basic training in the kitchen and not allowing them to be outside other than in the pen or on a lead until I can expect something substantial with recall. I'll go down the pet shop and see if I can find a long lead that works.

 

[dr2little]

I just re-read your OP and I misunderstood what you posted about clicking....**smacks head**, you weren't CALLING them using the clicker...sorry.

 

[jason_els]

Sorry I am unfamiliar with your pups. What breed are they? Are they littermates?

They're both pumis and yes they're both littermates.

 

[jason_els]

Don't reel the dog in, like a bass, it will fight you. Just tug the line to get the dogs attention. Here's tips (section headers) from this book: http://www.amazon.com/Living-Dog-Bru...e=UTF8&s=books
I would suggest getting SOME kind of book. Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson is reccomended here frequently.

Keep lessons short
Keep lessons enjoyable
Start as you mean to continue
Train when your dog's mind is alert
Avoid distractions
Always finish with fun
Don't get flustered

I actually have that one on order. It won't be in until mid-March along with my other training books . Same thing with the training classes. The ONE trainer in my area took off for a month so I have no socialization group, no basic puppy training classes, NOTHING until this person comes back. . I'm furious that precious weeks are flying by while the world conspires to make training my pups far more difficult than it should be. The next place I could take them is 30 miles away but see the part regarding their behavior in the car. The person near me is less than a 1/4 mile away (when she isn't sunning her fat arse in the Caribbean). ARRRGGHHHHH!!!!

P.S. Sorry, she took off in late January. Her office person says she's at a conference. My foot! No conference runs two months.

 

[TopShelfPets]

I actually have that one on order. It won't be in until mid-March along with my other training books . Same thing with the training classes. The ONE trainer in my area took off for a month so I have no socialization group, no basic puppy training classes, NOTHING until this person comes back. . I'm furious that precious weeks are flying by while the world conspires to make training my pups far more difficult than it should be. The next place I could take them is 30 miles away but see the part regarding their behavior in the car. The person near me is less than a 1/4 mile away (when she isn't sunning her fat arse in the Caribbean). ARRRGGHHHHH!!!!

P.S. Sorry, she took off in late January. Her office person says she's at a conference. My foot! No conference runs two months.

if you were willing to drive to RI, i'd loan you my copy. Can't you find anything at your local bookstore? Personally, i wouldn't bother using the clicker for potty training. Dogs prefer to go outside, and accidents are a part of puppy-raising. Work on one thing at a time. Once the dogs come pretty reliably, fade out the clicker, and start working on sit. Once they've got come-sit, they've started learning a series of commands.

All dogs have a hierarchy of rewards. If treats aren't working, try a squeaky toy that only comes out for training sessions.

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showpost.php?p=605459&postcount=16

 

[jason_els]

I actually have that one on order. It won't be in until mid-March along with my other training books

I switched from Amazon to Barnes & Noble. They (say) it usually ships in 24 hours however that's what Amazon said too. We shall see!

if you were willing to drive to RI, i'd loan you my copy. Can't you find anything at your local bookstore?

Thank you! That's most kind. My local bookstore was driven out of business by the online book stores.

 

[Zoom]

You're getting pretty close to "The Brat Stage", at which point they start to discover independence and will begin to tune you out. It's up to you to remain consistant and insistant that training is still something they need to pay attention to. "Train through it", as it were. Think of this as a precursory test for the 7-8 month mark when they really lose their heads.

 

[dr2little]

You're getting pretty close to "The Brat Stage", at which point they start to discover independence and will begin to tune you out. It's up to you to remain consistant and insistant that training is still something they need to pay attention to. "Train through it", as it were. Think of this as a precursory test for the 7-8 month mark when they really lose their heads.

Yes, those pup adolescent months....and with sibs too:yikes: :yikes:
Are you a drinker? You may be soon..

 

[jason_els]

This is the website for my town.

What you see is pretty much what there is. 40,000 people spread over 3 villages and a bunch of hamlets surrounded by twisty mountains. The town is a few hundred square miles so it's very rural. While we're only 60 miles from NYC, there are no box stores, no chains (short of a BK and a few drugstores), and just a few local commercial businesses and a handful of clothing/gift shops run as hobbies by bored former homemakers. You'll note the head of a cow in our town seal. Want anything other than hardware, groceries, or tchotchkes and you have to drive 20 miles to get it. It's a pretty but inconvenient and (now) expensive place to live.

 

[jason_els]

Are you a drinker? You may be soon..

Drink? Hell! I'll be lucky not to be on heroin by the time this is all over.

Speaking of which I should head to the liquor store. I feel the need for a good Bombay Sapphire martini.

 

[sam]

Not every moment is a training moment. If you want the dogs to come back inside, they are done their business, it's the middle of the night or whatever walk down your line pick them up and walk inside. You don't have to say anthing or make it a recall.
As for pooping on the carpet that's no more spite than it is when your not yet potty trained baby learns to take off their diaper and poop in a far corner of the living room. They have learned that they don't want that poop in their pants but they haven't got potty training down yet. Heck it could also be as simple as they though they were done got in the house and realised oops I still need to poo. Have you never gone to the john and come back to the computer on,ly to realise you had more "business" to attend to?

Potty training also does need the peice that says "eliminate in the house = not good" not just "eliminate outside = good"

They are 11 weeks old. They don't KNOW things yet. They make mistakes and that's a normal part of learning. REGRESSION is a normal and necessary part of learning.

When ever you are feeling frustrated remind yourself these are BABIES. They are a completely different species trying to learn to fit in in our world. They don't understand the language or the customs. In fcat our customs probably seem downright crazy to them. They also aren't sitting down and thinking things through. They are just doing what seems fun or natural in the moment.
It's important for all of us to keep in mind:Our dog's behavior is a reflection of our abilities as trainers. It's not their fault that they came into your life before you had read the books. It's not their fault that you decided to take on the enormous job of having littermates. It's not their fault that you are without a class or trainer right now. I say that not in a judgey way AT ALL. Puppies are HARD WORK. We all get frustrated with our dogs at times. Sometimes it's important to just check yourself -- and have that margarita or bowl of Hagen Daaz. When we start thinking in terms like "spite" is a good time.

 

[doberkim]

This is the website for my town.

What you see is pretty much what there is. 40,000 people spread over 3 villages and a bunch of hamlets surrounded by twisty mountains. The town is a few hundred square miles so it's very rural. While we're only 60 miles from NYC, there are no box stores, no chains (short of a BK and a few drugstores), and just a few local commercial businesses and a handful of clothing/gift shops run as hobbies by bored former homemakers. You'll note the head of a cow in our town seal. Want anything other than hardware, groceries, or tchotchkes and you have to drive 20 miles to get it. It's a pretty but inconvenient and (now) expensive place to live.

yes but warwick is beautiful and has its own fair share of good training available (IMO )

in terms ofo the clicker - do they KNOW what the clicker means? have you had sessions where you have simply charged the clicker with them focused on you?

 

[Boemy]

Have you tried shouting "Come" in a happy voice and then running backwards? When I had a pup, nothing made her want to run up to me than if it seemed I was running away.