What Can I Expect At 11 Weeks?

[Buddy'sParents]

In reading your threads, Jason, I really get the feeling that you are way too stressed over this puppy raising. I mean, my goodness, you make puppy raising out to sound horrible!

At 12 weeks, I'm not expecting anything grand from Bella. However, in the few short days (her first full day with us was Wednesday the 21st) that we have had her.. she knows her name, will come when called and is 70% potty training. Any incident she does have, is completely our fault (and her little bladder is so small, sometimes she's just too excited ).

I've started to teach sit, but I'm also trying not to overload her senses too much.

I think you've received some great advice- as always. But I also think that you need to take a step back and relax a little. Puppies should be enjoyed and should not cause so much stress on their owner.

 

[~Tucker&Me~]

Jason,

When I was training come, I think the neighbours thought I was crazy .

I would say 'Come!' in a cheery voice, and start praising immediately. If the dog showed any inkling of disinterest, then I would wave my hands in the air, start whooping or do anything to look like I'm having SO much fun! Sometimes running around a little and jumping in the air helps .After the initial moment of shock where the puppy looks at me in utter shock and comes towards me in order to join in the fun, I 'what a good come!!!' along with TONS of fun/games/food and play time!

I want the dog to WANT to come to me.

I did this with my puppy and he has a solid recall .

~Tucker

 

[jason_els]

Heck it could also be as simple as they though they were done got in the house and realised oops I still need to poo.

Ah, but this was on the way out TO go poop! He turned back from the door, ran out of the kitchen, down the hall, into the bedroom, and promptly squatted. That I don't get at all.

yes but warwick is beautiful and has its own fair share of good training available

Where?

Potty training also does need the peice that says "eliminate in the house = not good" not just "eliminate outside = good"

Now how do you do that with only positive techniques?

It's important for all of us to keep in mind:Our dog's behavior is a reflection of our abilities as trainers. It's not their fault that they came into your life before you had read the books. It's not their fault that you decided to take on the enormous job of having littermates. It's not their fault that you are without a class or trainer right now. I say that not in a judgey way AT ALL. Puppies are HARD WORK. We all get frustrated with our dogs at times. Sometimes it's important to just check yourself -- and have that margarita or bowl of Hagen Daaz. When we start thinking in terms like "spite" is a good time.

I actually don't mind having littermates. It really isn't as awful. At least yet. What you do for one you do for the other. I imagine it's like twins.

Certainly I am frustrated; I'd like them to respond the way I've been told they would. I want to know what I'm doing wrong and whether I'm expecting appropriate things of them. I think, after this, that I am. Ian Dunbar can stuff it. I'm just going to have to work at their own pace and not worry about making this or that deadline.

 

[jason_els]

Have you tried shouting "Come" in a happy voice and then running backwards? When I had a pup, nothing made her want to run up to me than if it seemed I was running away.

Yeah. I run away from them and they pay little attention though eventually check to make sure I'm there. What's happening though is they're wandering further and looking for me less frequently every day. I need to stop it before they get into real trouble and go someplace I can't find them right away.

 

[jason_els]

In reading your threads, Jason, I really get the feeling that you are way too stressed over this puppy raising. I mean, my goodness, you make puppy raising out to sound horrible!

At 12 weeks, I'm not expecting anything grand from Bella. However, in the few short days (her first full day with us was Wednesday the 21st) that we have had her.. she knows her name, will come when called and is 70% potty training.

That's more than I've accomplished in three weeks and you wonder why I'm worried? I admit I'm stressed and I admit it has been difficult. I question everything I do and when I don't get results I have to think about what I'm doing wrong. Since I'm getting about the same results with both pups I highly doubt it's the dogs. It has to be something I'm doing wrong.

I went out and got a 20' lead. I hope and pray it will help with the wandering though they'll probably hate me for it. And I got some squeaky toys! They haven't taken to them yet but there's no hurry.

 

[Zoom]

I admit I'm stressed and I admit it has been difficult. I question everything I do and when I don't get results I have to think about what I'm doing wrong.
I hope and pray it will help with the wandering though they'll probably hate me for it.

That stuff right there is 70% of your problem. Your dogs are picking up that you aren't confident and thus they have no reason to listen to you. You're the big man on campus. Act like it.

 

[Buddy'sParents]

That's more than I've accomplished in three weeks and you wonder why I'm worried? I admit I'm stressed and I admit it has been difficult. I question everything I do and when I don't get results I have to think about what I'm doing wrong. Since I'm getting about the same results with both pups I highly doubt it's the dogs. It has to be something I'm doing wrong.

I went out and got a 20' lead. I hope and pray it will help with the wandering though they'll probably hate me for it. And I got some squeaky toys! They haven't taken to them yet but there's no hurry.

My point is that you're stressing TOO MUCH. How many threads of late have you posted? You go from one method to another and to another if it doesn't work after trying for a day or two you try something else.

Stick to your guns, my friend. Find one method and stick with it long enough to allow it to work and you will a happy pet owner. Don't be wishy washy, be confidant and lead these two puppies through a happy puppyhood.

That stuff right there is 70% of your problem. Your dogs are picking up that you aren't confident and thus they have no reason to listen to you. You're the big man on campus. Act like it.

What Zoom said. Act the part you have knowingly taken.

 

[jason_els]

You go from one method to another and to another if it doesn't work after trying for a day or two you try something else.

Actually that's not true. I have stuck with the clicker method. I think that has the best chance of working. I've worked out a schedule with the dogs that works. Right now I'm concerned about the execution of the way I've chosen. I'm not looking for wholesale change so much as tweaking the details.

 

[Buddy'sParents]

Actually that's not true. I have stuck with the clicker method. I think that has the best chance of working. I've worked out a schedule with the dogs that works. Right now I'm concerned about the execution of the way I've chosen. I'm not looking for wholesale change so much as tweaking the details.

It's been true of the recent past. You've had these pups for 3 weeks and you've not been consistent, what do you expect from them when they don't know what you want?

 

[sam]

Ah, but this was on the way out TO go poop! He turned back from the door, ran out of the kitchen, down the hall, into the bedroom, and promptly squatted. That I don't get at all.

>> I'm not sure exactly WHY he did that. But I'm 100% sure it wasn't to spite you. Maybe he smelled urine and ducked into the nearest "bathroom" Who knows. I try not to spend too much time on why why why and just look at how do I may the right behavior work and the wrong behavior not work. Sometimes we think we've done everything just right and realsie later what's not working. All I know is there's not point blaming the dog- that's not going to help you sort this out.

Now how do you do that with only positive techniques?

>> "Positive only techniques" isn't a term I've ever used. It's actually the one I most often hear J&P trainers use who are trying to discredit positive methods. When I catch my untrained dog in the act of peeing/pooping in my house, I RUN towards them yelling AAAAAAAAAH! It isn't intended to scold them as in BAD DOG! It comes out sounding as it would if I was trying to warn someone of impending danger or who was about to put a fork in a light socket or something. Then I scoop the dog up run them outside and hope that they can go there so I can reward that.
I don't think my dogs have a clue what or why I do that, maybe they think "wow, mom's crazy." or maybe they think " gee by her reaction maybe it's not SAFE to pee in the house " I don't know what they think. I think the first time I did it with Rosie she started smiling and wiggling like she thought I was coming to play a game. Sammy was more worried about it. I have an ultra soft approach with him with everything. I'm not sure if that's not positive enough for you or for anyone else. My dog needs to know peeing in the house isn't the right thing to do. I don't need to scold, hit, choke or otherwise hurt the dog but I do need to get the message across somehow.

I actually don't mind having littermates. It really isn't as awful. At least yet. What you do for one you do for the other. I imagine it's like twins.

>>twins is my worst nightmare LOL

Certainly I am frustrated; I'd like them to respond the way I've been told they would. I want to know what I'm doing wrong and whether I'm expecting appropriate things of them. I think, after this, that I am. Ian Dunbar can stuff it. I'm just going to have to work at their own pace and not worry about making this or that deadline.

I think learning to use a new training method just by reading is really tough. It's a science but also an art. There is alot to knowing how to implement the methods.

FWIW I walk reguarly with an ER doc. He was very impressed with Rosie and Sammy and "how well they listen." How fast and reliable their recall, how they retrieve to my hand etc. He asked lots of questions about the methods "how I got them to do that" and I showed him some things with the clicker, answered his questions etc. He's a SMART guy and he works really hard with his lovely young Golden but he inadvertently taught his dog to lie down and instantly pop back up because he clicked for the down but fed when the dog had come back to a sit. I hadn't told him to "click for the actiuon. Feed for/in position" I guess. As soon as he started clicking and feeding in position the dog stopped popping up out of his down. There were several other things he inadvertently trained that we fixed. Point is-the dog wasn't "bad" or stupid, it was a training problem. The trainer isn't stupid either, neither was the method - he just didn't know enough to see what he was teaching the dog / why the dog was doing what he was doing. I can give you plenty of examples of stuff I've inadvertently clicker trained in my own dogs like Rosie's flying finish where she body slams me. I intended to shape her with the clicker to get straigher, but in getting straighter she was getting bigger and bigger movements that ended up with her going from front to finish by flying through the air and slamming into me. The flying finish is great-- the body slam - not so much
My dogs are both doing rall level 3. I am well aware of how to teach them all of the exercises but i still train with a group of people. It's very helpful when I run into problems to say "could you watch me? this is what I'm doing, this is what I'm getting" It's amazing how simple it sometimes is for someone who is watching. That's why even Susan Garret (agility superstar) doesn't train in isolation. I'm sure you'll be happier and less frustrated when you have access to 1:1 help and after you've had a chance to read some of those books. Isn't it one more week til the trainer comes back?

bah! I tried to leave your words in quotes and have mine not be but I screwed it up. Oh well. You'll get the idea.

 

[TopShelfPets]

Are your dogs food mongers? You might want to try a day of just (please don't take this the wrong way) getting them to like you.

You need to be more interesting than anything that could distract them. They have to be fixated on you. Try puppy massage and feeding lots of treats. You are the source of food and fun and relaxation! I think sometimes it's hard for guys to act excited and over-the-top, using a high shrieky voice and going "oh, you're a goo'boy! yes you ARE! did you go potty? yes! you went potty outside like a goo'boy! Okay! now you wanna play?!"

but the great things about dogs is that they're not very judgemental. They don't know you sound like a retard, they just know you sound really happy, and they made you happy, and when you're happy, they get treats!

Don't feel too bad, either. When I first got Jager, he had no concept of where I thought it would be acceptable to pee. And he didn't understand to go to the door, and even once he figured that part out, he would just sit there, and if i didn't notice, he'd just wander back into the living room and pee. Very indescriminately, too. No bothering to sniff or return to a spot. The world was his bathroom.

Eventually it got better, and then i taught him to ring bells that hang on the door. Now i actually consider him housetrained.

 

[jason_els]

I RUN towards them yelling AAAAAAAAAH! Then I scoop the dog up run them outside and hope that they can go there so I can reward that.

I ran toward him, saying, "NO!" very sternly and he looked a bit surprised. I scooped him but I don't know if he was finished or not. He has a habit of pooping a bit first then pooping more a few seconds later. When I brought him out he didn't poop any more so I assumed he was already done by the time I reached him. Now I think the screen door scares him. It makes lots of creaking noises.

 

[doberkim]

are you trying recalls with one of them alone, or with both?

one of my dobes trainer is in warwick - but hes a bite sport trainer.

 

[otch1]

Jason, Jason, Jason... I admit I've not kept up on posts and see that you got not one but two Pumik!!! What posessed you?! Lol. Take a deep breath, gather your patience over that Bombay mart. tonight and sit down and write out a new schedule. These dogs are very similar to Pulik. They are sensitive, aloof and can be rather stubborn. The last thing you want to do is set up a "battle of the wills". Seperate them as much as possible, giving each of them individual time to bond with you, verses each other. This will be the most important part of your time spent with them right now. This does not mean training. This means letting one nap, while the other sits in your lap and has some petting, snuggling, affection and play time. Once the pup is relaxed, comfortable and focused on you, then do a little training. At 12 weeks of age, they're going to learn as much as you're willing to teach, but they have to be comfortable with you, trust you and be willing first. No amount of food, a clicker or long line will help if you don't have that. They are a quirkey little dog! You are simply introducing commands. So save yourself the frustration and maintain complete control for now. There is no training session done with both pups at the same time, yet. There is no off-leash yet. Make yourself walk that pup to it's potty area, regardless of time or temperature. It will be worth having them "get it" now, verses spending an additional month on potty training once enough accidents have been had in the house. My personal opinion, skip the clicker until you get into a training class and really learn how to use this method or it will be completely ineffectual in time. Again, these dogs are very sensitive and I have a feeling you need to soften your approach. It's difficult for men, but this means changing your posture and the inflection/tone of your voice. You need to become a safe, warm, fun, secure source of companionship for them first. Don't over think this. I know this may sound silly but I have a feeling something's missing here and that's why it seems to be more challenging than you'd anticipated. The dynamics of households, for almost of the Pulik I've worked with has been an intense bond with the human female in the house. Spend the weekend doing some bonding and see if things don't become a little less stressful by Monday.

 

[jason_els]

I just came back from taking them out on the leash.

It was a disaster. They cringe when I near them, whine when go to pick them up, and Boomer won't move at all while on the leash. He just curled-up and wouldn't pee or poop or even walk. Tweeter just took the leash out to the end and danced around on the end of it screaming like I was beating him. WTF??

I had to put them on a leash to take them to the vet's and that was a miserable day. They hated the ride, throwing-up and pooping, and then when I put the leash on Boomer at the vet's office parking lot he ran under the car and I had to pull him out because he wouldn't come out. Tweeter wasn't as bad. He was much worse tonight though. At the vet's I had to leash them while I cleaned-out the soiled crate and transfered them to a carrier. It was probably the wrong time to introduce them to leashes but I had no choice.

So tonight Tweeter freaked and ran from me cowering, peeing as he ran down the hall when I brought out the leash. When I got him outside, he did the dance of doom. I had to step on the leash to keep him from running away from me when I went to pick him up. Boomer yelped when I wouldn't slack the leash to run into the bushes and both of them looked at me like I was a monster.

So now they're back inside and I'm typing this and I'm at a loss.

At this point I'm amazed I've done this sort of thing before. How did I do it? I've raised two great dogs before without any books or professional help and I did ok and now I'm just blown away by how different these guys are. I must have changed in some way and I daresay not for the better.

Right now I'm even questioning if I'm providing a good home for them. I think it is. They get vet care, personal attention, toys, treats, and some kind words. Yes I get frustrated with them and it comes out in my words and actions. I've never hit them and never would but they act like I do and for the life of me I don't know why. They've never been on a leash before in their lives! They drag it around the house without a problem. It's when I hold it they go bananas and go from dogs who at least like me to dogs that fear and hate me.

I setup a pen in the back of the house and I'm going to use that for going out at night. They're used to it for the quarter of an hour or so every morning when I clean their crates and inside pen.

one of my dobes trainer is in warwick - but hes a bite sport trainer.

I do the recalls separately and together. Naturally they're better when they're alone since there's less distraction.

Could you ask your trainer or send me an IM with this person's name or the name of an obedience trainer in the area? I'd like to get a referral. There's only one that I've found here in town.

Thanks.

 

[Zoom]

The dogs are picking up on your frustration and it's freaking them out. Also, they're not used to a leash at all yet, of course they're going to freak out. They're used to going where they want and suddenly this THING around their neck isn't letting them do that! And it sounds like they've picked up pretty quickly that the bigger the fuss they make, the quicker the leashes come off and the unfun stuff goes away.

Do what Otch said. Ditch any "serious" training for the rest of the weekend and just play with the dogs. What I'm getting from your posts is that your body language is probably very upright, rigid and tense when around the dogs. Your voice probably has notes of tension and strain in it, even if you are aware of it. Your homework is to learn how to talk like Mickey Mouse and crouch down to the pups level. Standing tall and commanding isn't going to help you at this stage of the game. You can still "command" while talking like an idiot.

 

[jason_els]

I admit I've not kept up on posts and see that you got not one but two Pumik!!! What possessed you?!

Ohhhh I just felt like proving once again that no good deed goes unpunished.

This means letting one nap, while the other sits in your lap and has some petting, snuggling, affection and play time.

I do this. Tweeter's OK with it, Boomer just wants to crawl away someplace else to lie down by himself.

At 12 weeks of age, they're going to learn as much as you're willing to teach, but they have to be comfortable with you, trust you and be willing first.

Well there goes that...

No amount of food, a clicker or long line will help if you don't have that. They are a quirkey little dog! You are simply introducing commands. So save yourself the frustration and maintain complete control for now. There is no training session done with both pups at the same time, yet.

I've discovered this the hard way. They're not food motivated unless they feel like it. I've bought them a load of toys, treats, and am working at clicking. They don't seem to give any interest to them unless they feel like it.

There is no off-leash yet.

I can't even get them into a leash with me holding it. Go me.

Make yourself walk that pup to it's potty area, regardless of time or temperature. It will be worth having them "get it" now, verses spending an additional month on potty training once enough accidents have been had in the house.

This I do. I do it religiously. I get-up, go out with them and tell them to poop and pee and praise lavishly. They don't just get put outside. So far they are very good at it save for a few accidents and today's weird-out.

My personal opinion, skip the clicker until you get into a training class and really learn how to use this method or it will be completely ineffectual in time.

I'm beginning to agree. Apparently I'm not doing it right since the treat isn't motivation enough for them to repeat the action when I ask for it.

Again, these dogs are very sensitive and I have a feeling you need to soften your approach. It's difficult for men, but this means changing your posture and the inflection/tone of your voice. You need to become a safe, warm, fun, secure source of companionship for them first. Don't over think this.

Well let's see... I first met them and drove them 100 miles back to my house while Tweeter whined and cried and then threw-up. I've taken them on two horrible visits to the vet, and they only come when they feel like it. I wait for them I'm a good guy, I don't wait for them and chase them down and I'm a bad guy. I put them on a leash outside and they may as well have been beaten with a stick. Only one of them doesn't mind me doing puppy massage and they both cringe or try to run when I pick them up. Tonight one of them fairly screamed at me like I was an ogre. All I feel I'm doing is teaching them to loathe me.

I know this may sound silly but I have a feeling something's missing here and that's why it seems to be more challenging than you'd anticipated.

I agree. We're missing a connection here. I don't feel as though we're connecting. I can see why. I crate them, pen them, take them to the mean man in the white coat, expose them to scary places, make them ride in big red vomit/poop inducer, make them wear scratchy collars, separate them far more than they want, and scare them witless with leashes. They don't think much of the toys, aren't motivated by food, and don't like it when I chase them around and grab them when they don't respond to the commands that worked just fine hours ago.

Do I love them? No. Do they ever seem as though they like me? No. I feel like I'm a trustee for two trust fund brats who don't appreciate anything I do. Do I expect they'll like going in the car or to the vet's or having to come in when needed? No. But I would like to see them happy when I come in the room or want to play with me and they're not that at all yet, if they ever will be. After tonight I fear they will never.

The dynamics of households, for almost of the Pulik I've worked with has been an intense bond with the human female in the house.

There are limits to how far I will go to accommodate their needs.

Spend the weekend doing some bonding and see if things don't become a little less stressful by Monday.

I'm going to get a trainer or try a class when they become available nearby. If it doesn't work after that then I don't know what to do to make them happy short of rehoming one or both.

 

[Buddy'sParents]

Wow. *shakes head*

You need to take a deep breath.

I suggest buying this book, NOW. Like three weeks ago. If you have to drive an hour to get, GET THE BOOK.

You have biten way more than you can chew. This is obvious. If you really want help, you need to relax a little, take a deep breath and listen to what people are suggesting.

I just came back from taking them out on the leash.

It was a disaster. They cringe when I near them, whine when go to pick them up, and Boomer won't move at all while on the leash. He just curled-up and wouldn't pee or poop or even walk. Tweeter just took the leash out to the end and danced around on the end of it screaming like I was beating him. WTF??

Are you pulling at the leash? Dragging them along? What are your movements/actions when they are on a leash?

I had to put them on a leash to take them to the vet's and that was a miserable day. They hated the ride, throwing-up and pooping, and then when I put the leash on Boomer at the vet's office parking lot he ran under the car and I had to pull him out because he wouldn't come out. Tweeter wasn't as bad.

Why are they on the ground in public? Are they fully vaccinated yet?

It was probably the wrong time to introduce them to leashes but I had no choice.

You had no choice? There are always choices. I'm confused as to when exactly you introduced the leash. The first time at the vet? When they were on the ground?

Are you crate training? A pup will not soil it's crate. You need to explore why this is happening.

So tonight Tweeter freaked and ran from me cowering, peeing as he ran down the hall when I brought out the leash.

You probably would also if you experienced what they did on their first leash experience. Don't you think that you're requiring a bit too much of them? Or perhaps blowing some of these things out of proportion?

When I got him outside, he did the dance of doom. I had to step on the leash to keep him from running away from me when I went to pick him up. Boomer yelped when I wouldn't slack the leash to run into the bushes and both of them looked at me like I was a monster.

Why are they running from you? Have you thought about this?

At this point I'm amazed I've done this sort of thing before. How did I do it? I've raised two great dogs before without any books or professional help and I did ok and now I'm just blown away by how different these guys are. I must have changed in some way and I daresay not for the better.

Were they littermates as these two are? If not, did you raise them at the same time? No two dogs are the same.... ever. Even littermates.

Right now I'm even questioning if I'm providing a good home for them. I think it is. They get vet care, personal attention, toys, treats, and some kind words. Yes I get frustrated with them and it comes out in my words and actions. I've never hit them and never would but they act like I do and for the life of me I don't know why. They've never been on a leash before in their lives! They drag it around the house without a problem. It's when I hold it they go bananas and go from dogs who at least like me to dogs that fear and hate me.

I think you have a serious case of the puppy blues. It's making me feel sad. I absolutely adore my puppy and she is such a joy at 12 weeks. We're having the time of our lives with her.

If hubby or I yell at the one of the boys, Bella cowers.. she worries tremendously. For example, both hubby and I have had to give Buddy sharp, "leave it's". He's very interested in Bella's toys and that is not okay with us. When we give him the "leave it," Bella cowers. She doesn't like it. Are you yelling? What does your body language say when you are around them?

Dogs are smart. They sense your emotions, you sound extremely uptight, frustrated and worried right now. Take a deep breath and have fun with your puppies! HAVE FUN.

 

[otch1]

Hi Jason... did you read my post? You've set yourself up for a few unpleasant experiences and now have to "undo" that. Please take my advise seriously. I will approach this in a manner I believe you'll relate to. It's not about being "sweet", it's about gaining their trust so you can modify behavior. You have to sperate them to do this. Seperate crates, serperate time spent out with you. No two dogs out on a leash at the same time. No riding or spleeping in the same crate. You have no control over both of them in that instance. No off leash! There should never be a time when the dog is out, that there is an opportunity to run from you. They act like you've hit them, as you put it, because they don't trust you, lack confidence and they're feeding off of each others anxious behavior. To modify this behavior effectively, (and before it gets worse) you have to isolate it and redirect it. You raised two dogs successfully in the past, without a trainers help, but they were not Pumi!! You are the owner for these dogs, but need to understand what makes them tick. Trust me when I say these dogs are a little different and you have to handle them accordingly. (I hope you researched the breeder and the breeding pair, as well.) Don't speak to them, (I have a felling you have a deep and commanding voice??) don't train, just spend 2 days quietly picking them up, massaging paws, scratching back and chest gently and hand feeding treats. They are on leash for this and they are seperated. Your goal should simply be to get each to take food from you while making eye contact and being relaxed enought to fall asleep in your lap. This is an exercise, i'm not being cute here and it's not something I'm making light of. These dogs will get worse if you don't do some foundation exercises now! And if you have that martini first, brush your teeth twice. They have wonderful noses!!

 

[Buddy'sParents]

Do I love them? No. Do they ever seem as though they like me? No. I feel like I'm a trustee for two trust fund brats who don't appreciate anything I do. Do I expect they'll like going in the car or to the vet's or having to come in when needed? No. But I would like to see them happy when I come in the room or want to play with me and they're not that at all yet, if they ever will be. After tonight I fear they will never.

With this kind of attitude, I'm beginning to think that you may be right.. perhaps you aren't the best home for them after all.

You need to seriously sit yourself down and come to terms with the responsibility that you have knowingly accepted into your life. Those two puppies deserve the utmost of love, attention and care.