Valid Question

mrose_s · Apr 16, 2007

that is interestig. same with buster. in controlled situations he is the BEST boy. listens everytime.
but he see's a hare and thats it, gone. he undertsands he shouldn't because you can see him trying to decide whther to go or not. he always comes bck but he worries me. i also couldn't keep him onleash forever. its not fair.

so how did you teach khana?

Doberluv · Apr 16, 2007

Could you clear up something for me. I use that term too, all the time, "Positive reinforcement" because it's sort of become a catch phrase. But it really isn't very descriptive. Could you explain your definition of it and describe in detail what you think it is, or what it includes or excludes? Do you have a very full-bodied grasp of the techniques? Of course, typing it all here would be too much to ask anyone. But perhaps you could share if you've read a lot of books, scientific journals or articles you may have studied.

In other words, a lot of people don't really know what positive reinforcement is. They get a pre-conceived idea and really don't know the science. So, they utilize one or two little parts of it and run out of tools, saying "it doesn't work." It would be like someone saying that a child can not grow up to be a responsible, competent adult if they don't receive spankings and are raised by parents who never lay a hand on them, but encourage and teach them, using at times the taking away of priveleges for some lessons. I know first hand that that would be false.

whatszmatter · Apr 16, 2007

boy its amazing how you could use the same arguement on how people have preconcieved ideas about e-collars, prong collars, etc. They see or hear about one idiot creating a horror story, and suddenly the tools become the work of the devil.

Doberluv · Apr 16, 2007

Oh no, you misunderstand. I am not basing my opinion on those people who really screw up when using the e-collar...the horror stories. I think that they're not a good tool anyway. It goes against my beliefs.

Doberluv · Apr 16, 2007

Harry is very smart though, he isn't a dog that you would ever need to flog to get a point across (no dog needs that EVER) but i smack when he's doen something REALLY bad means he'lll never do it again.

:yikes:

Wow! I'm outraged!

dr2little · Apr 16, 2007

Yes mrose_s, I think you know that there is NO EXCUSE for hitting a dog...NONE. If you have questions about how to best handle a specific situation, just ask...but please don't abuse poor Harry.

tessa_s212 · Apr 16, 2007

IliamnasQuest said:

Interesting responses. I don't disagree 100% with anyone's post. Honestly .. *L*

I didn't mention shock training, that's been brought into this thread by others. My original question was:

"Can all dogs be trained to the same level of off-leash reliability by using all positive training?"

And, of course, the answer is no. Dogs are individuals, each is going to respond to motivators and punishments in their own way. Some dogs respond beautifully to an all positive method, some require more boundaries (i.e. corrections). A good trainer will balance these specifically for each particular dog.

My Trick is a good example of a dog who needed very little in the way of corrections. A verbal correction was plenty for her, and she has never been trained with the use of corrective collars. She is as close to 100% reliable off-leash as you can hope a dog will be. I can have her heel next to me, off-leash, in a busy parking lot. She does a stay outside the store while I put the cart away. If I drive in and there's a moose in the driveway, I can let her out of the van off-leash and tell her "stay with me" and she does. She can be outside with Khana and Khana can run off, but Trick prefers to stay with me. This is in huge part to the type of dog she is .. the training just solidified the personality she already had.

I put a LOT more time into Khana's recall than I ever have into Trick's. I did everything that people are saying should be done. I've studied her extensively, used a large arsenal of motivators, started doing recalls with her when she was all of nine weeks old, and she's been HIGHLY reinforced. I'm not some beginning trainer .. I'm experienced, knowledgeable, have traveled extensively for training, have studied for many years, and have practiced what I've studied. Hundreds and hundreds of dogs have gone through my training programs and done very well. Many have gone on to earn performance titles (as have mine - more than 30 titles now). I'm not a novice. I still have things to learn, but I have a good deal of knowledge now.

And one of the valuable lessons I've learned is that IF you're going to be successful with all dogs, you have to be flexible and you have to understand that providing a consequence for an unwanted (and especially a potentially dangerous) behavior is not necessarily a BAD thing. Now, I could have said "I'm only going to use this ONE method, and we will only train to the extent that this ONE method will be successful" .. and yes, I could say I was successful within that method, even if my dog was never reliable off-leash. But I'm not a trainer that is going to allow the boundaries of a particular method hold back the training of a dog, if there's another way to work through a problem that will work but not be devastating for the dog.

If you want to teach off-leash reliability to all dogs, you're not going to get it with just positive training. That should certainly be where you start - and it should be used to the greatest extent possible. Yes, you will succeed with that method with a large number of dogs. Yes, you have to be imaginative and observant and you have to know your dog well so as to use the best motivators possible. Treats and praise and toys are not the only motivators by far. I've used everything from a car ride to getting to pee on a bush to rabbit skins as motivators. And if teaching Khana to respond to a recall command could have been done with ONLY motivators, it would have happened.

No one can tell me truthfully that they could have trained my dog to a reliable recall with positive training only (or even with mild corrections like "no" - which is pretty useless when your dog is running off .. *L*). Up until the age of about 20 months, she NEVER offered the running behavior. I have no doubt she understood (and still understands) what the recall is. It was her choice to run off, and what motivated her to do so was something far stronger than anything any person could have offered in exchange.

I will reiterate that positive training is absolutely the place to start in ALL training. Khana does beautifully in controlled situations, such as a competition recall. I can work her in the front yard, off-leash, leave her on a stay and call her and she comes racing full blast, bouncing to a sit in front of me with her ears forward and this look of expectation on her face (when IS that treat going to fall from my mouth?? *L*). It's only during playtime that we ran into a problem. And like I said, I could have kept her on a longline for the rest of her life. And that would have been really sad for this particular dog.

I spend 24 hours a day with my dogs. I can read their expressions, their attitudes, what they're thinking when they look at me. If I had any .. ANY .. indications that what I've used with Khana had created a lack of trust, a fear of me, a reluctance to interact with me in even the slightest of ways, I would have never continued with my course of action. But that's not happened. To say that I'm a terrible person/trainer because of my choice would be the same as calling every parent who's ever given a swat on the butt of their misbehaving child a child abuser. And that's just not logical.

So say what you will about me. I'll continue training as I always have, my dogs will continue to be happy and enthusiastic, and my students will continue to do well in my classes as they have for more than a decade and a half.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

Great post Melanie.

I'm ALL For positive reinforcement. I think it should ALWAYS be the first method tried. But, I am not so illogical and closed minded to think every correction or training tool is abuse so long as it is used correctly and always paired with reinforcers and reward based training. It IS very rare that I must resort to those things as my positive training rarely doesn't work, but if there is a dog that has the temperament for corrections, isn't progressing as I'd like with purely PR, some kind of correction for wrong behaviors, while adding tons more for correct behaviors, WILL be applied.

Again, great post. And I'm sorry that others may have(from the sounds of it, I did not read the other thread) called you out on your training and suggested and hinted at that you were a bad trainer. As much as we positive reinforcement trainers complain about the close mindedness we can get from purely correctional trainers, some sure are getting to be a bit similar to them in the aspect of closed mindedness, even to those that DO acknowledge and use PR but may still choose to use corrections and fair aversives when the situation is appropriate.

whatszmatter · Apr 16, 2007

Doberluv said:

It didn't mean you, I meant people in general, just like your post about people in general. an e-collar topic comes up and its abusive, torture, etc, etc, all by people that never seen one, held one, or know how to use one.

I saw a person this weekend with an e-collar trained dog, she briefly explained how she used it, i'm not going to try and replicate what she said, cause i didn't really understand. I know is a type of never really seen before. She could show that dog anywhere under any circumstances, and I would love to see the jaws drop when they are told that the dog was trained with an e-collar. They have a lot more uses than zapping the crap out of dog, which is the way most people think of it as.

Doberluv · Apr 16, 2007

No one called her a bad trainer! Where in this tread, do you see that? I'd like to have a link to it or have it quoted.

Also, PR trainers who know what they're doing do use corrections...NRM, withholding rewards, taking away priveleges (lol) adding something the dog would rather not have and the like. They just don't use what they consider harsh, unfair or abusive physical or mental/emotional aversives. They don't use things which don't make sense to the way dogs learn and associate things or things that can have detrimental side effects. I think that "positive reinforcement" or motivation and reward based training is vastly misunderstood. Or perhaps, purposely misunderstood.

Doberluv · Apr 16, 2007

Oh, woops. I thought your post was in reference to mine on account of yours following mine. My mistake.

Anyway, some things may or may not be horrible abuse. But that isn't always the point. Even if I didn't think that e collars for example, were too much of an aversive (which I do) it still is based on avoidance and that is not condusive to PR training. I don't think a mild yank on a collar as long as it's not injurious is abuse. I don't think a harsh voice (within reason) is abuse. But it's not part of the repertoire or tool box I need to use. It's based on avoidance, not working toward, but working away from. That works against and not WITH.

RD · Apr 16, 2007

Wow, Melanie. I had no desire to bash anyone and I didn't realize that this was about you and your experiences, yet again.

For the record, it isn't the use of the e-collar I disagree with, it's your reason for using it. As a trainer, I would think you'd know that just because you do not understand a behavior does not make it out of this world and impossible to correct without electric shock.

Roxy's CD · Apr 16, 2007

Seeing as this has gone from just about off leash training to:

Does positive reinforcement, or "positive methods" work for every dog...

I don't believe so. I tried it with Roxy for a few things, one which I spent close to a year working on and many experienced, reputable trainers I spoke with at fun/correction matches asked me why in the world I spent so much time with something that wasn't clearly working.

As for your particular use of the e-collar Melanie, you've got tonnes more experience in the dog training world than I'll probably ever have and in your posts, even though we've had our disagreements, (which I believe is proof that I'm not biased just because I've used an e-collar as well) I see no denial of your use of the e-collar, or how it affects your dog, and I'm quite sure you exhausted all other possibilities.

If I were in your shoes I probably would've done the same if all other methods didn't work. My guys are off leash everyday. My dogs come everywhere with me, the majority of places are off leash. I'm sure if given the choice, my dogs would've chosen the use of an e-collar over not being allowed off leash, as that would seriously change our life with our dogs.

whatzmatter- A lady I speak with on a regular basis, (I'm hopefully going to meet her this summer) owns two of the tope 20 Dobermans in obedience of last year. She doesn't use the e-collar as her main training tool, but for some things, she does use them.

I've watched hours of VHS of these dogs working in obedience and agility and you never would've guessed that these happy, hard working dogs had ever had an e-collar on them from the way it's described here.

So bottomline, my inexperienced, useless opinion to some of you, is no. I don't believe that "purely positive" in every situation, with every dog will have the BEST outcome, when compared to other methods.

~Tucker&Me~ · Apr 16, 2007

Carrie,
6 months ago Tucker was great off-leash. Never once bolted, ran away or anything. When I called him he would always come immediately. In the past several months or so he has begun to bolt after other animals. He is no longer allowed off-leash

.

It sounds really condescending when you talk to us like 'you people'

. I +would LOVE for Tucker to be off-leash again and I think he would too. Worst case, he stays on leash, but if I can find another way I would love to give it a try.

Melanie, I would really like to know how you taught Khana to come...

~Tucker

Doberluv · Apr 16, 2007

Sorry that I hurt your feelings. Really, I am. I'm glad he is not allowed off leash for now, until you work through this regression. Regressions are a normal part of learning. Dogs can not be expected to be absolutely and perfectly obedient at all times, to not have any interest in anything else ever, to not be more motivated by their environment occasionally or to alert to other stimuli besides what we desire them to be alert to. That is what has made them able to survive, reproduce and perpetuate the species. Survival of the fittest IS evolution. If a dog did not have these qualities, it would not be advantageous to the survival of the species. I think people have way too high expectations out of a living thing.

There are ways to work through it again, by basic, systematic training techniques. Punishing a dog with harsh aversives for being a dog just goes against my belief system where animals are concerned.

There are ways to freshen up a recall which are very effective. I've done it myself with my dogs. It was all done with motivation, reward, prevention, step by step, setting the dog up for success and management. Lyric has a stupendous recall in just about every distracting situation you can imagine. Yes, once or twice he was over come by the distraction, but so what. I won't let him off leash near cars or any other high risk situation.

IliamnasQuest · Apr 16, 2007

RD said:

First .. others brought the shock training into this post and have made statements aimed at me. Of course I'm going to respond to those. If others want to make it "all about me", am I supposed to just sit back meekly and say "okey dokey, obviously you're all right and I'm wrong and I'll go sit in a corner now". Geez, people, surely by NOW you know I don't back down from a challenge? *LOL*

I understand very well why my dog was doing what she was doing, and I also understood that her desire to run was beyond anything that I could counter-motivate her out of. I daresay I have a LOT more experience and training knowledge than you do, so I do find your post just a tad bit ridiculous .. *chuckles* .. just because you choose to be against my use of a training device doesn't automatically make me not able to understand the behavior of my dog. I spend 24/7 with my dogs and have for the most part of the last 19 years. I spend more time observing and working with dogs than nearly anyone who posts on this forum. I have studied +R extensively and I understand both the possibilities and the limitations. And there ARE limitations, regardless of what any well-meaning but slightly deluded person wants to tell you.

Doberluv said:

Khana came to me at about 8 weeks of age. I started on recalls the following week. We did recalls for over a year (about 15 months) with NO running off. She was at the point where she was off-leash most of the time when we would be outside together. We went for walks. We went to the lodge. She never even offered to run off until she was about a year and a half old. By pretty much any standards, a dog that has been consistent under all the normal distractions of that area for over a year should be able to be considered "trained". It wasn't like I took her to a strange place with huge new distractions and turned her loose. This was in our own territory under the same distractions she was accustomed to.

First time she ran off, I thought "okay .. not going to stress over it .. don't like it but I'll continue reinforcing her recalls, etc.". She was great for a few more weeks, and then did another zoom. This time I put her back on a long line, started working her on more formal recalls, etc. Even on a 50' line, she would turn and race back to me immediately, eager for the reward. I could take her to training classes and work her off-leash, no problem. I could call her out of distractions and she eagerly ran to me. And after a couple of months, we tried off-leash again and again she did beautifully for a few weeks and then took off again. I was ALWAYS outside with her, and I could see the moment she chose to take off. Her body turned and tensed and I would immediately give my recall command .. but once she decided, she never even looked back. She would tuck her rump and run as fast as she could.

I can't blame her. It's a great world out there, full of wonderful sights and smells and excitement. I was never angry with her, but I was definitely scared every time she ran off. Yes, I could have kept her on a long line for the rest of her life. What a crappy life that would have been for this dog. I made a choice based on what THIS dog needed. I have another chow that is not consistent off-leash and I've never used the shock collar on her. She's a low-energy dog that does fine with limited exercise in the fenced back yard or on a walk on-leash. Khana doesn't do well with those limitations.

You guys want to make it sound like I'm out there slapping a shock collar on every dog I come into contact with, turning it up to the highest level and shocking them into a quivering, urinating mass on the ground. All I can say is that NONE of you must have ever come into contact with a dog like Khana. She reacts so little to this collar that no one watching would be able to tell when I've even touched the button. She reacts LESS to the level of stimulation I'm using than Trick does when I give a little tug on a flat collar. Just like the use of +R is adjusted to fit the particular dog (knowing what motivates your dog is absolutely important), the use of +P must also be adjusted to each particular dog. What one dog takes as a correction another dog may not even notice.

I've been accused (prior to this post starting and the other "E-collar" post starting) that I'm directly responsible for "swaying" people to use of the shock collar. We could have let that all end way back when, but with the continued talk about it now others are asking. Does that make you happy?? Isn't this battle counter-productive to what you want?? LET IT GO! Stop posting, I'll stop posting, things will be copacetic again.

For those interested in using the shock collar .. what you need to do first is exhaust every other possibility. Do thousands of recalls on a long line (50' at least). Use a huge variety of motivators - not just food, not just toys, find other things that motivate your dog. Never let your dog be outside without you right there keeping an eye on him. See if you can find a "Total Recall" class in your area - it's a class that just teaches recall under lots of distractions. Find a trainer that can help you observe your dog and see what they can do to help you. Spend months and months working on this and if, after a year or so, you are absolutely sure that your dog is not going to be reliable off-leash because of the particular nature of your dog, then and only then consider some sort of consequence to help re-direct your dog.

Consequences are not necessarily a bad thing. The consequence that Khana faces if she chooses to try to run off is not nearly as bad as getting kicked by a moose, hit by a car, attacked by another dog, or having an interaction with a porcupine. I'm truly glad there are sensible people who can understand that too.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

Brandyb · Apr 16, 2007

Good post Melanie.

RD · Apr 16, 2007

I didn't see anyone mention your name.

To each his own, for their own dog. I don't doubt that you know your dog, Melanie and I won't even go into explaining the fact that my post was NOT questioning your credentials, because I know nothing I say will convince you otherwise.

So I dunno, I guess I just don't get it. I know there are some dogs with an extreme, unexplainable drive to run and explore but I don't get why that drive couldn't be harnessed and used as reinforcement for the behavior you wanted. Yes, there are limitations to +r, yes the dogs need to learn that there are consequences to their behaviors, but morally I do not feel like I'm doing the right thing to strap an electric collar on a dog. That was my disagreement. Again, your dog, your choice. My disagreement doesn't mean I don't think you have the right to do what you want with your own dog.

Back on topic, this summer I will be given a dog to train (and possibly adopt, who knows) with NO offlead recall. She has fear aggression issues and will take off the minute the leash is unhooked. My goal will be to have her working comptently off-lead alongside my Dakota as a goose control dog. If I can't accomplish teaching her to be reliable offlead without the use of physical aversives, I'll certainly tell the board about it!

animalcrackers · Apr 17, 2007

There are worse things (and worse possibilities) than a tingle from an e-collar. Great posts, Melanie. Is there anyone here who has properly used an e-collar and does not recommend it or is against it after their experience? I'm not saying that if you have no experience with this tool that you are not entitled to an opinion, but I was wondering.

dr2little · Apr 17, 2007

animalcrackers said:

I'm sorry but you yourself admitted to knowing very little about e-collars and calling the shock a tingle just proves this to be so. The use of a shock collar should not be minimized. I don't believe that ANYONE on this board would want their potential for abuse or their impact to be understated.

Trust me, you'd rethink calling it a tingle if you place one on yourself.

Just the opinion of a card carrying extremist, one with decades of experience with the consequences of e-collars.

animalcrackers · Apr 17, 2007

dr2little said:

The "positive only" extremists I were referring to were groups like the IPDTA, who apparently spread misinformation. I myself did not even realize this until someone else pointed it out to me.

I do know very little about e-collars, since I have never used one and hopefully will never have to. I've only read about them and had other people and trainers tell me their experiences using them. Before that, I used to think e-collars were absolutely unecessary, abusive and inhumane. I thought that the shocks from them were painful, and that people used them to punish dogs. I recently learned that that isn't the case, and I was proven wrong. Everyone I have talked to who has used this tool properly has called it a "tingle" when they used it on themselves. The most painful I've ever heard it described was like when you hit your elbow on the table and you get that kind of funny shooting feeling up your arm -- this was from a clicker trainer, and he did not use that setting on a dog. On their dogs, it is only a flick of the ear they are after. I don't think anyone is minimizing the potential for abuse and such, which is why other posters have called it a "last resort" thing and have encouraged consulting a professional and reading about how to use these things properly.

But seeing as I don't have any experience using this tool, I guess my opinion doesn't count much.

Valid Question

BusterLove

Active Member

whatszmatter

Guest

Active Member

Active Member

Moderator

tessa_s212

Guest

whatszmatter

Guest

Active Member

Active Member

Are you dead yet?

Active Member

Active Member

Active Member

Loves off-leash training!

New Member

Are you dead yet?

New Member

Moderator

New Member