Two Dogs...big dilemma!

[showpug]

The truth of the matter is that the majority of all people that are breeding their dogs to produce mixes are NOT doing so for the reason of "good temperment" or health, they are doing it for fun, for money or so their children can experience the miracle of life. In each situation the dogs best interest is not looked after. I see it as neglegent and sad. Many of these breeders are breeding their mixes or purebreds to dogs of other breeds on their first heat, or better yet, before any type of health or temperment testing takes place. I believe that when you breed a dog you have to have a reason...it can be as a working dog on your farm, the show ring, agility, tracking, obedience, guide dog or something that betters the next generation of dogs. When everyone just breeds to breed, you have what we have today. Puppies and adult dogs and even senior dogs thrown away in shelters and waiting to die on death row. Yes, we have the right to breed our dogs, but we have the responsibility to choose not to when it is not in the best interest of dogs in general. I will always feel strongly on this subject and plan on truly deticating a lot of my life to the betterment and protection of pugs, because they are a part of my heart. To me, there is not a "bad" pug on the planet. They can be bred by the best breeder, or the worst back yard breeder, but I will always have a place in my heart for all pugs. I love pugs because of certain traits that make pugs what they have always been...when everyone and their neighbor begins to breed this breed without paying close attention to health and temperment, my breed that I adore starts to dwindle....that is something I will never except. The word without pugs as I know them is a sad world We have to act responsibly if we care about dogs in general.

 

[Fran27]

Oh god I don't know where to start. I hope the OP is still reading this though...

Honestly, in my opinion the problem is that the male is mature now and needs to be neutered, and the OP is planning to do it anyway. That's all. About the female, well, some of you say that she needs to be spayed, while some of you AGREES that if she is already agressive (Moe), it will just make things worse. if we can't even agree with each other, I'm not surprised that the OP will keep trusting the behaviorists. I always thought that neutering was basically a solution to everything, but what you mentionned about making agressive tendencies worse for females made me think. Maybe you should ask another professional or a few other vets and make the best of the advice you have been given and make a decision about it. I'm still thinking that the problems will most likely be solved once the male is fixed.

Manchesters, I know you care a lot about dogs, but you really didn't read the original post. She never knew that the female was agressive. She seems to me that she's been trying to train her to be more socialized. That's a lot more than lost of people would do in the same situation. And the dog is NOT human agressive at all.

I agree that breeding mutts with each other is a bad idea, mostly because if you want a mutt, there are lots of puppies in rescues waiting for a home - but it's NOT the problem at hand. It's not right to come and flame her for something she did months ago. I hope too that she will keep neuter her dogs as soon as possible if she gets others, and won't breed them, but it's not the problem here.

Joce, I don't understand at all why you say that Emeraulde is one of the posters you can't reason with. It's just so wrong. Of course she's defensive, because she was attacked by posters. She's ASKING for advice, and as far as I can see, she got NONE. The only suggestion you offered is that the ***** should be spayed, but she's worried about it because some professionals told her it might make things worse. How is THAT making excuses? From what I see, she's pretty responsible, by trying to find a solution to her problem!

Saje, she's been training the dog I believe. The thing is, it's probably not going to change anything if she's agressive with the other dog. And I can really understand why it's not so obvious to her that she needs to spay the female. She doesn't know people here, and I would bet that half of the people who told her to have the dog spayed have actually no idea what they are talking about, and just said that like Joce did because of the breeding issue, without having a clue about whether it's a good idea or not in the present situation.

I'm apalled that you guys really think that she is a troll. She's not the one who started criticizing everyone - you need to realize that on *all* pet forums, it's the people who usually post on the forums who are defensive - because they love pets, and want the best for them, but they also have their opinion about what is best for them, and usually lack tolerance towards people who don't agree (which is often deserved). Besides, a troll usually doesn't spend so much time trying to explain their problem.

Finally, I think that most of the people who breed mutts etc just do it because they are ignorant, haven't looked around much and are not really aware of what the situation is with shelters, rescues etc. What we need to do is inform them, not jump at their throat, after all we were ALL ignorant at some point too.

 

[Doberluv]

Fran, did you read every single post? I spent time honestly trying to think of and give ideas to help. Everyone gave ideas, websites, recomendations to see a behaviorist, training advice, personal experiences and there was, without exception (to my recollection) not one word of acceptance of any of it. Every response had a come back, an I already know that and have researched that, or a hostile resistance to anyone's suggestions. That came early on. There was not one word of thanks until much later in the thread. In the fourth post, there is an apparent rush to put out some bait, a response to an innocent and legitimate question by Baby Blue who I believe was innocuous and proper in asking a question such as that, in the light of concern for perpetuating an aggressive line of dogs.

It's bound to happen on a message board where people have a love, regard and concern for dogs, that they will, by majority, be opposed to someone breeding mongrel dogs when there is such a population explosion of them and will push for spaying and neutering. That's the way it tends to go. If someone is offended by that, then too bad. True animal lovers take a little time to find out about the horrendous over population of cats and dogs and have the imagination to realize what's going on in over crowded shelters.

People are going to have their opinions. But when someone comes on asking for help and advice, and rejects every last drop of it, it's a little difficult for people to fathom why. I truly don't see anyone attacking anyone. There's a lot of explanation attempts and frustration about a situation... that almost starts appearing to be for no other reason than to stir things up (because not one piece of advice was graciously accepted for the longest time) but personally attacking...hmmm....that's a fine line, I guess.

 

[Fran27]

Yes, I agree. It's just very hard to come ask for advice on a forum, only to get comments about what you should have done, what was wrong etc - the second reply that she got was from someone who didn't read her post and assumed that she bred an agressive dog on purpose - I think it would have bothered me too. Also, just because someone has a behavior problem, people assume right away that the dog wasn't trained nor socialized - it happened to me too, and I didn't take it well at all, because I've spent so much time socializing and training - and I believe that Emeraulde did as well, so I understand her reaction.

 

[kathisi]

I agree with Fran (and I read every single post). The majority of those posting suggested that she spay and neuter her pets. She is timid about spaying, but she was planning to neuter. I think it would have been ok to state that you it would have been nice for her to get her dog from a shelter rather than breeding a mutt, but that is in the past and no help to her current situation.

I, also, understand the problem of keeping a dog who is an escape artist inside. I had a dog that could open doors with his teeth. He also opened windows. I had to put him in an enclosure with a concrete floor and he was still able to tear a hole in the fencing (hurting himself in the process). Of course, tethering him didn't work either.

I hope that neutering the male helps and I hope that Emeraulde does heed some of the advice that she was given, while overlooking the attacks.

 

[Babyblue5290]

Yes, I agree. It's just very hard to come ask for advice on a forum, only to get comments about what you should have done, what was wrong etc - the second reply that she got was from someone who didn't read her post and assumed that she bred an agressive dog on purpose - I think it would have bothered me too. Also, just because someone has a behavior problem, people assume right away that the dog wasn't trained nor socialized - it happened to me too, and I didn't take it well at all, because I've spent so much time socializing and training - and I believe that Emeraulde did as well, so I understand her reaction.

I was the one who asked why she breed an aggressive dog and I in no way meant it to be rude. It was an innocent question. I'm sorry that she took it wrong, but I didn't mean any offense to her at all!
I did read the entire thing and have been following this thread, although not inputing. I didn't assume anything. I might have misunderstood something in the beginning and tried asking a question so I could understand her thread better, but I didn't "assume" she was a bad person and was purposely breeding aggressive dogs.

 

[Doberluv]

I was the one who asked why she breed an aggressive dog and I in no way meant it to be rude. It was an innocent question. I'm sorry that she took it wrong, but I didn't mean any offense to her at all!

I knew that...didn't think a thing about it. Of course she wasn't breeding an aggressive dog on purpose. But breeding mutts on purpose should be something pointed out to people in case they don't realize the ramifications.

I know people can be extra sensative. I am myself at times. But most of this was just flat out attempts at offering help. That's truly what I saw.

I hope too, that she gets the help she needs. We all love dogs and a life of friction with a problem dog is not something I would wish on anybody or any dog.

 

[bridey_01]

Don't you think that, because the mother dog actually killed two small dogs, the woman would have the sense to intensly socialise the pup? And, assuming that she did in fact socialise it, why then would it be fighting with the other dog she owns?
If that little pup had been mine, and i had had to put its mum to sleep, i would have that pup with me everywhere, socialising it to everyone and everything, small dogs especially!

 

[becca_4321]

Who ever said she didnt socialize her dogs? At the risk of ticking people off I'm putting my 2 cents worth in. This discussion has gone to far! Its not even a discussion, its bashing. This lady has been ripped apart and put down long enough. I used to enjoy coming to this site but more and more I find myself not even wanting to come here. For starters she said she socializes her dogs. She has been working with her dogs. She is simply freaked out because of what happen to the momma dog and wants to keep that from ever happening again. She didnt turn down any suggestions. She was looking to see if anyone would offer her suggestions that maybe she hasnt thought of, to see if she's missed something. Yet people got ticked at her and acussed her of refusing to take suggestions! I feel bad for this lady and the treatment she has gotten and she isnt the first one to go through this on this board!
If they didnt love their dogs and didnt care about what happens she sure as h*ll wouldnt have been here asking for suggestions. We arent there to see for ourself the hole picture, and its not our place to assume the worst on her part. I had a post about Princess breaking into our neighbors yard. Although no one can ever totally get the picture of what I am trying to say unless they are here to see it for themself, even I had a couple of negitive reactions. Fact is, the condition of my neighbors fence is in bad shape, my solution to the problem cost more than I can afford at this time. So I have to do other things to keep Princess from ever gaining entrance into that yard. Now I have Gracie and the situation is getting worse, not with my dogs, but with my neighbors little dogs. They growl at me, anyone in my yard and at my dogs. The neighbors pomerainains are not socialized, with other people or with other dogs. They never leave their homes or yards. They have no kids and company is very rare. The lady of the house is very anti social. My dogs go on walks, mine play with other dogs, mine go places with me all the time, mine meet people.Mine would never intentionaly hurt another dog. BUT, these pomerianins next door have now taken up jumping on the fence and barking and growling to get my dogs attention. My dogs are always off playing, or napping or simply minding their own business. THE MINUTE the neighbor lets his dogs out they (as in neighbors dogs) run right for the fence barking and growling at us. They do that even when we arent outside! It worrys me more now because should a board break and my dogs get in that yard how will the little dogs react to my dogs? They (as in neighbors dogs) are the little monsters. Mine will think they get to play, the neighbors dogs might not. If they decide they are big dogs in a tiny body and pick a fight guess what? They would lose that battle. Not because my dogs arent socialized, not because my dogs have no training, not because I'm not responsible, not because of the chow, not because my dogs are aggressive, but because they are dogs and they will fight back if push comes to shove! Princess is large enough that one bite could end it for a small dog like that.
No one here can even begin to picture the situation I have. But yet I will sit out in my back yard with company who have seen it for themselves what I have tried to explain and they all bring it up on their own how the neighbor needs to do something, that his dogs have a problem. It's not my dogs with the problem here. But should something ever happen my dogs would be the ones said to be aggressive. The blame would all lay on me. I will add though that the man of this house seems to realize it and he's working on the dogs to stop acting this way. But if he's not home and its his wife or her mother there, they dont care. They just let the dogs out to bark at us.
This lady didnt deserve this kind of talk. It is easy to misunderstand what a person is trying to say when your just reading the conversation and not actually hearing it. I seem to have taken it the same way she has. She did misunderstand a couple that wasnt intended to be accusing.
Not everyone has the perfect dog. I cant help but wonder about some people who do have "perfect" dogs. ALot of the ones I have seen with a dog that never does anything wrong is mean as h*ll to them. Will beat them with a stick if they ever refused to listen to a command. No excuse for the way this thread went, very uncalled for. All she wanted was to explain why she's freaked, why she thinks like she thinks, and what she has tried or hasnt tried. This is right up the same line as when ElinHunter was being ripped about in the food post when she first came by a member. She was being accused of being a poor pet owner who was to blame for her dogs illness'. Everyone knows her dog is her pride and joy. She didnt deserve that treatment nor did this lady.

 

[bridey_01]

First of all, if indeed she had socialised the pup correctly, it would not now be fighting with the smaller dog, spike. She seemed very upset by these fights, so i assumed they were a little more than scuffles!
The pomeranians next door to you may well be little monsters, perhaps you are inferring that the dogs her dog killed could well have provoked her into such a deed?
Even so, dogs with proper bite inhibtion would never inflict wounds that would kill, no matter how small the dog. Of course no dog is perfect, my kelpie has scuffles every now and then with my mum's chihuahua, and seems as if she is intent on killing her. When they are finished, neither have a mark. This is a result of good bite inhibition and puppy socialisation. Oh, and i do not have to hit her with a stick, lol.
Look, i do not want this woman to feel bad. And, even though some people were quite rude, many gave her quite useful information.
If she had stayed on, so the nicer people could help her work through her problem, it may have come to a better conclusion. I feel sorry for her situation, but i also refuse to place the blame on the dogs.

 

[bubbatd]

Me too..............I'm sorry she didn't get the help she was hoping from us, I am still haunted by what I felt I had to do years ago . (I've posted this before ) My female golden was in heat and since she had been bred a year before, I was not ready to breed her again at that time. She was in our kennel and we were out of town for the weekend. The dog sitter knew of the situation . Her( the dog's ) father and son were on the property . Weeks later I realized that my female was pregnant . Some how the sitter had let her out and I didn't know who bred her. Either way, I couldn't let the pregnancy continue. I had the pups taken caesarian and an destroyed humanily before a first breath. There were 8 and yes all golden. I could not take the chance of inferior pups of a breed I loved out to free homes not knowing what could continue. Yes, it was sad for me, and costly ....but it was best for the breed. That was 30 years ago and I still grieve .

 

[EliNHunter]

Me too..............I'm sorry she didn't get the help she was hoping from us, I am still haunted by what I felt I had to do years ago . (I've posted this before ) My female golden was in heat and since she had been bred a year before, I was not ready to breed her again at that time. She was in our kennel and we were out of town for the weekend. The dog sitter knew of the situation . Her( the dog's ) father and son were on the property . Weeks later I realized that my female was pregnant . Some how the sitter had let her out and I didn't know who bred her. Either way, I couldn't let the pregnancy continue. I had the pups taken caesarian and an destroyed humanily before a first breath. There were 8 and yes all golden. I could not take the chance of inferior pups of a breed I loved out to free homes not knowing what could continue. Yes, it was sad for me, and costly ....but it was best for the breed. That was 30 years ago and I still grieve .

I remember that. I was still so young and didn't fully understand. That was one of the saddest times of my life. But in hindsight, we really did what was right and it was very humane. At least for the pups. Copper, the mamma, on the other hand, had post-traumatic syndrome and thought stuffed animals were her puppies :-(

 

[Renee750il]

I was pretty well finished with Emeraulde when she made it clear she either hadn't come here for any advice.

Clearly you think my vet, several other vets in my area, and one of the top dog behavioralists in the country are idiots, or perhaps that you know more, because I'm taking their advice, not yours. Silly me. I never claimed to be an expert, I simply trust my vet and highly trained consultant more than I would a message board troller.

If she trolled through to cause trouble and put people at each other's throats, she sure managed to do that.

Anyone ever notice how dogs' personalities often reflect their owners'?

No need for any further replies here, but I do hope that any of you who have hurt feelings, damaged friendships or things you might want to clarify with each other will do so through PMs. There is plenty of room for differing opinions and we've handled some pretty volatile subjects with much more poise than in this thread. We're all quick to defend the underdog, and Emeraulde played that card to the hilt.

 

[Doberluv]

I absolutely agree with you Renee, adamantly. She did not come here for advice. She came to be a troll. Let's face it. What a load of tosh! (tosh...isn't that an expression the English use? I love it! LOL)