The dog musing/vent thread

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Okay, this is relevant but random- I had a guy with a Doberman on a flexi allow his bitch to run up to us and others at a dog show on Saturday. Starbuck is young and tolerant, but wow. Stupidity. Other than that, at training I've NEVER had an issue.





These two posts stand out to me. After having a very reactive dog and a puppy who is shaping up to be reactive, I'm not amused by "he's friendly!" Or "he's just boisterous!" Or "he doesn't know how to take no for an answer!" NO. Keep your dog on a leash, under control. Please remember that the middle part of the leash is not hot lava, and you can hold there, too when another dog is offended by your encroachment into their bubble, even if you don't view it as their personal space.



This is why people have a problem with your post. This is what you're saying. Most of us have or have had highly reactive dogs, and we work on managing them and training them. It's you and people like you with dogs who are lacking social skills who are "just friendly" who are the problem. I've been on both sides of it, and neither side is very fun, but both sides require management and training.
I keep my dog on a leash and under control, and don't make excuses for his foibles, and work on managing and training away his current behaviors - hell, I'll be starting to pay for privates again this September solely to work on reinforcing calm greeting behaviors in him - and the amount of times I've had to repeat things to that effect without having it fully acknowledged is essentially reinforcing my initial perception that in dog circles, griping about dogs of certain, bouncy temperaments rather frequently occurs on autopilot without a lot of attention given to particulars. I'm not the person you assume I am, evidently.

And yes, I absolutely think that people should take care where they bring their dog-intolerant and reactive dogs, and do what they can to teach their dogs to, as Sekah put it, hold their **** together... at least momentarily. Yes, for the dog's own sake, if not the sake of dogs they could end up biting and injuring themselves. I'm not sure what's controversial about that to you, since you say you work on managing and training your reactive dog, presumably for the same or similar reasons.

I do agree with BostonBanker that people allowing off-leash dogs to approach other dogs without warning is a bigger problem in general, but it's a problem that pretty much everyone that actually works with their dogs agrees on, including me (I think it's bad, just to make that even SUPER clearer). On the other hand, something doesn't have to be the biggest of all possible problems to be commented on, which is why I made my comments. And those comments were quite explicitly directed toward a smaller subset of people engaging in a very particular behavior or behaviors.

I can see in retrospect that I was conflating two different complaints in my first post, and also that I slipped too easily into my example using my own dog without specifying that it was a hypothetical example. At this point, though, I've pretty much clarified my own dog management principles (thou shalt not let thy bouncy dog bounce on other dogs and make excuses) into the ground. After a certain point you just have to rely on readership to read in good faith.

But no, I don't think it's good management to stand back and allow your upset dog to bite other dogs - or try to, or stand back and allow the escalation of situations where they might try to - in the interest of teaching those boisterous dogs lessons. Why does that opinion concern you? Do you think the solution to a tense, unexpected dog/dog situation is to step back and allow your dog to bite the other dog, and hope that dog is as friendly as it looks? Do you think it's your dog's job to teach other dogs to behave?

And yes, I think people whose dogs will not even momentarily tolerate behaviors that 90% of dogs will tolerate, or don't give warnings before biting in keeping with the usual pattern, should keep in mind that their dogs are, by definition, not entirely socially normative, either. If your dog responds to other dogs that come too close, etc. with unusually great speed and vitriol, the entirety of the issue does not lie with every other dog in dogdom - not even just the bouncy ones.

None of that is a value judgment, and it doesn't mean I think dog selective and reactive dogs shouldn't be allowed in public, and it definitely doesn't mean I absolve people who let their dogs approach recklessly or impolitely of blame, etc. etc. My dog was reactive at one point and yes, I do know what managing that with uncontrolled dogs around can be like, thank you. Unless I specifically write something, don't jump to the conclusion that I think it if you please.

Now, I did think of an example that happened to me, which did not result in any actual biting thankfully, to illustrate the latter point. I didn't have it in mind initially because the owner of the cranky dog involved definitely was not game for letting her dog bite anyone else's (yay) and my emphasis was initially more on that.

I had my dog on leash. They had their dog on leash. We were about 5 feet away from one another. They moved their dog (little closer), not paying much attention. My dog got excited and whined at their dog, and pattered his feet a little - kind of a rude way to try and get another dog's attention, yeah. I tried to calm him right away; their dog immediately lost it and lunged pretty seriously. They tried to calm/move their dog. Trainer on hand looks surprised and says, "What was that?"

"Well," they say, "she just doesn't like when other dogs act like that."

And the trainer, sensibly enough, politely deflated that excuse by pointing out that while Indy still needed to learn to be calm around other dogs, trying to nail him was definitely not the right way for her to go about handling it.

Like I said, quickly trying to bite a dog that is annoying you but not hurting you (particularly when that dog is restrained and not even close enough to touch you) is hardly itself an example of amazing dog-dog social skills. It's not any more appropriate a response than is slapping a person standing too close to you on the subway, which I need not point out is something that would probably get you into some trouble. And yes, magnitude of a response to a provocation can, in fact, surpass the magnitude of the provocation enough to warrant an eyebrow raise. You aren't supposed to drive screws in with a sledgehammer.

Your last sentence is a succinct way of saying exactly what I have been saying. Both sides take management and training... and not everyone in the world is as intelligent about managing their intolerant and reactive dogs as you would hope.
 
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Dogdragoness

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Boo ... one of my parent's dogs injured the cartilage in Lincoln's ear (dont know how it happened, I had my back turned and they were playing, and I heard Lincoln yelp a little, I turned around and saw them playing nice again, then I noticed the next day that his ear's cartilage was bent back and his left ear was standing prick. So I taped it until I got back here and had the vet they use here look at it, well he told me that it was likely irreparably damaged and would likely stay like that ... I could try taping it for a couple of weeks or so, but "dont get your hopes up" is what he said.

Bummer :( now everyone is going to think he has off standard ears :( but I do have pics to prove that both ears were fine.
 

noludoru

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I never said there was anything controversial about training and managing your dog. I also never said I was concerned about your opinion that it's not good to allow your dog to escalate a bad situation. In fact, I agreed with itin my post. When you accuse every single person in this thread of not reading or misunderstanding your posts, you should definitely make sure that you read theirs. Specifically the posts I quoted. (I disagree completely that the person with the snarky dog is at fault- it's definitely the fault of the dog who starts the altercation. Well, their owner, for allowing it to happen.)

It's apparent to everyone but you that you do make excuses for your dog's behavior. That's basically why this topic blew up. Your dog was rude to another dog - the dog may have been moved closer to you, but their dog was under control and non-reactive until your dog was pushy and actually touched their dog, which is wildly inappropriate. You specified in another post that the distance was 4', I believe, hence my comment about the middle of the leash not being hot lava- you shouldn't be allowing 4' of slack leash in a crowded situation.

You know what? It ****ing happens. You just have to stop making excuses and do your best from letting it happen again. Starbuck joyfully flailed onto another dog's face this weekend, and that was 100% my fault. Yes, the guy moved his dog in pretty close, but I should have had her more under control- even if she was spazzing, she shouldn't have reached that dog. I apologized, he, very kindly apologized for not noticing us, and thankfully it wasn't a big deal. Should I blame him? Nope. Do I spend time angsting over it? Not any more. I'm just going to manage her better in the future and avoid putting her in overwhelming situations like that until she's trained more.
 

pinkspore

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He nearly got himself into a fight, too. Ran up to a tethered dog in the neighborhood in his overstimulated way, and the other dog didn't take kindly to it and bit him in the face - not badly but enough to draw a little blood in one place. He's such a huge twerp (or "gritty" as cur dog folks would say) that of course he didn't get the message and just kept acting like a butthole. He did bare his teeth briefly and when the dog's owner came out to try and keep his dog calm by taking hold of him he started circling and barking at the other dog.
Yes, my dog has a very, er, straightforward approach to other dogs, and it intimidates or annoys them and gets him into trouble. He is a rude dog. However, your dog that jumps straight to biting any larger, sniffier dog that comes too close at all? Also not manifesting super polite dog behavior.
And I really wish there were a way to communicate to these people without being misinterpreted that, while my dog looks and acts goofy initially and loves other dogs, he doesn't back down easily at all. Now, I work very, very hard to keep him out of other dogs' ways when we're in multi-dog situations unless the dog is VERY obviously accepting and tolerant, and I am virtually always successful.... however, if for some reason something were to happen and he got too close to their nippy dog, that dog would not be effective in "teaching him manners, hahahaha!" as they seem inclined to think. One of two things would happen:

1) The bite would not be enough to make him feel threatened, and he would keep doing what he was doing.

2) The bite would be enough to make him feel threatened, and he would fight back.

And he is bigger and often physically harder than many nippy herding breed dogs. So there is a strong chance that, while it would be bad for my dog, it could be worse for yours.

My dog being rude in his approaches and not knowing when to take a hint isn't cute or funny, but neither is your dog overreacting about it and trying to throw a first punch. It's just another source of trouble.
My concern is with people that seem to find the prospect of their dog quickly nipping any excited dog that gets within a 4 foot radius amusing, or assume that their dog "correcting" the other dog will necessarily teach the other dog a lesson rather than, realistically, escalating an uncomfortable situation that the excitable dog probably is not creating intentionally.
Where the example I have with my dog comes in is, before you start assuming your dog's physical correction will be effective and teach the other dog manners and regard it with any kind of approval or amusement, you should know the dog being corrected. It might very well just make things worse.
...he does not "accept" corrections appropriately and will just keep on being annoying. What I do know is that he's not the only dog on the planet that acts silly but has no "back off" button, and many of those dogs probably do not have owners as conscious of their social stupidity, so joking about how your dog is going to "teach manners" to unspecified other dog you barely know if it acts dumb in too close a proximity is seriously risky thinking if you want to protect your dog.)

Also, I'm not talking about rude on the level of jumping on another dog or getting right up in their face. More like, rude on the level of being loud and bouncy within about a 4 foot radius or more, rude dog on leash.
Maybe I'm misinterpreting but it sounded like your issue was that I was implying the owner of the dog that bites first in these hypothetical situations is ultimately at fault. I never intended to imply that, though. I think there are situations where that might be true depending on the exact unfolding of events (particularly if the dog that likes making corrections is really so undersocialized that they interpret pretty benign behaviors as threatening), but it's more often not.

I give especially wide berths to dogs the owners of which make light of their dog's tendency to bite or seem strangely excited by the prospect of "rude" dogs being bitten, because I know where it could lead.

I do not believe that dogs necessarily communicate perfectly with one another 100% of the time or that misunderstandings never occur, especially if one dog (often the rude dog) is overstimulated to begin with and not thinking well, or only half paying attention.

I also don't think dogs are entitled to an infinite supply of personal space as determined by the dog without some human mediation. If the amount of personal space your dog requires is abnormally large, it is partially up to you to make sure they get it in a safe way - in cooperation with the people around you, we can certainly hope. (Which, yes, means that people should not let their happy-go-lucky pouncers stick their nose up a touchy dog's hiney.)

And personally, I allow people to cross my personal bubble quite often - I mean, I used to ride public transportation regularly. ;)

But really, this isn't about my dog specifically.
No, I think it is.

I'm still hearing "My dog is incredibly rude by dog standards, but those overly-sensitive dogs need to just get over it. He should be able to demonstrate an incredibly rude amount of interest in another dog from four feet away without that dog taking offense. It's just cat calls and obscene gestures, he's not even touching them! Those overly-sensitive dogs think they need way too much personal space anyway. Their owners should just teach them that some dogs are rude, and they need to learn to tolerate rudeness.

The way some of those owners handle it could put their overly-sensitive dog in danger from rude dogs, and I don't like that."

Trying to make this all about that last bit there doesn't negate everything else you've expressed.
 

Paviche

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No, I think it is.

I'm still hearing "My dog is incredibly rude by dog standards, but those overly-sensitive dogs need to just get over it. He should be able to demonstrate an incredibly rude amount of interest in another dog from four feet away without that dog taking offense. It's just cat calls and obscene gestures, he's not even touching them! Those overly-sensitive dogs think they need way too much personal space anyway. Their owners should just teach them that some dogs are rude, and they need to learn to tolerate rudeness.

The way some of those owners handle it could put their overly-sensitive dog in danger from rude dogs, and I don't like that."

Trying to make this all about that last bit there doesn't negate everything else you've expressed.
Yes, this. This and what Nolu said.
 

pinkspore

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Also, once again, a rude insensitive dog fixating and getting boisterous about a dog 4' away is a lot like a teenage boy leering at a girl across the aisle of the bus and talking about snapping her bra straps. Is he touching her? No. Is he threatening her with unwanted contact? You bet. Is it OK for her to punch him? Probably not. Did she start it? Definitely not.

Does she need to just learn that some boys are like that and she should be less sensitive and tolerate it? Couching it terms like "she needs to be less easily provoked because one of those boys might be a real psycho" isn't likely to over well with the parents of teenage girls.
 
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noludoru

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Also, once again, a rude insensitive dog fixating and getting boisterous about a dog 4' away is a lot like a teenage boy leering at a girl across the aisle of the bus and talking about snapping her bra straps. Is he touching her? No. Is he threatening her with unwanted contact? You bet. Is it OK for her to punch him? Probably not. Did she start it? Definitely not.

Does she need to just learn that some boys are like that and she should be less sensitive and tolerate it? Couching it terms like "she needs to be less easily provoked because one of those boys might be a real psycho" isn't likely to over well with the parents of teenage girls.
Is it wrong that I keep thinking "teach your shitty kid not to bully?" That's immediately what I think of. The quote that's going around Facebook is about same sex couples, but it's the same concept.
 
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No, I think it is.

I'm still hearing "My dog is incredibly rude by dog standards, but those overly-sensitive dogs need to just get over it. He should be able to demonstrate an incredibly rude amount of interest in another dog from four feet away without that dog taking offense. It's just cat calls and obscene gestures, he's not even touching them! Those overly-sensitive dogs think they need way too much personal space anyway. Their owners should just teach them that some dogs are rude, and they need to learn to tolerate rudeness.

The way some of those owners handle it could put their overly-sensitive dog in danger from rude dogs, and I don't like that."

Trying to make this all about that last bit there doesn't negate everything else you've expressed.
No. My dog should not be able to be rude, and I have never said that. If I thought that, I wouldn't be bothering to try and correct it in the moment or in general. And I don't care when dogs take offense - I care when their owners think that all levels of offense, including biting, are acceptable under all circumstances. I also think that it's probably better for a dog to teach it to be as tolerant as possible of pretty common canine issues, like excitable approaches. I don't want my dog to be pushy... do you want your dog to be an anxious mess?

What I have said is, my dog would be rude sometimes if I allowed it. Which I do not to any significant extent. Quoting the parts where I described how rude he, essentially, wants to be, doesn't actually remove the context (which is sometimes still contained in the quotes): When he makes motions to behave rudely, I control it, evidently successfully enough that I'm not being yelled at or thrown out of training classes by people that can actually see how my dog is handled. Occasionally I'm asked to move him, etc. which is all fair. I do it and there isn't a problem. When professionals that actually know a dog aren't as concerned as you are without having ever actually seen it interact with another dog... if I were you that would make me wonder.

Those other things I've expressed don't need negating because they've been reasonably qualified. If you're determined to ignore the qualification, there isn't really much I can do about it. By all means, continue to focus on the fact that my dog that you've never met is obviously allowed to be so incredibly rude... as you imagine it. In reality he is removed from situations or his behavior is addressed when it starts to unfold. If I'm not being effective enough I put more distance between him and other dogs, and it's not really a big deal to anyone.

Just because it bears repeating, I have an issue with all or even most reactive dog owners, rather than specifically those that don't realize their dog is reactive and/or think that it's great when their dog bites another dog.

It's apparent to everyone but you that you do make excuses for your dog's behavior. That's basically why this topic blew up. Your dog was rude to another dog - the dog may have been moved closer to you, but their dog was under control and non-reactive until your dog was pushy and actually touched their dog, which is wildly inappropriate. You specified in another post that the distance was 4', I believe, hence my comment about the middle of the leash not being hot lava- you shouldn't be allowing 4' of slack leash in a crowded situation.

You know what? It ****ing happens. You just have to stop making excuses and do your best from letting it happen again. Starbuck joyfully flailed onto another dog's face this weekend, and that was 100% my fault. Yes, the guy moved his dog in pretty close, but I should have had her more under control- even if she was spazzing, she shouldn't have reached that dog. I apologized, he, very kindly apologized for not noticing us, and thankfully it wasn't a big deal. Should I blame him? Nope. Do I spend time angsting over it? Not any more. I'm just going to manage her better in the future and avoid putting her in overwhelming situations like that until she's trained more.
My dog never touched their dog. He was not on slack leash. So as a matter of fact, yes, I am justified in seeing that my posts are not being understood (you just misunderstood one). This does not mean I haven't read the other posts - I have.

Additionally, there are people who have responded reasonably, without assuming that my dog is out of control all the time. One of the first questions I was asked was, is he on leash?

And having described situations where my dog actually did get nipped and I had nothing to say about it because he had clearly earned it by acting stupid... well, if I were prone to being overly defensive about the dog's propensity to get corrected, you'd think it would make more sense to be defensive when the dog has actually been bitten.

In reality, even in situations where he's just being slightly spazzy? I only apologize. I have no interest in having it continue to happen so I work to teach him calm.


Also, once again, a rude insensitive dog fixating and getting boisterous about a dog 4' away is a lot like a teenage boy leering at a girl across the aisle of the bus and talking about snapping her bra straps. Is he touching her? No. Is he threatening her with unwanted contact? You bet. Is it OK for her to punch him? Probably not. Did she start it? Definitely not.

Does she need to just learn that some boys are like that and she should be less sensitive and tolerate it? Couching it terms like "she needs to be less easily provoked because one of those boys might be a real psycho" isn't likely to over well with the parents of teenage girls.
Teenaged boys aren't kept on leash by their parents, who are quick to disrupt their fixations, while in contact with other teenagers, and sexualized behavior like threatening to snap bra straps in an animal as psychologically complex as a human certainly does not have the same tenor as a dog trying to initiate play, so this is going off into flawed comparison land again. But yes, you know, if a teenaged girl is so sensitive that she punches people for being non-physically annoying, she does in fact have to learn not to punch people. I'm sure her Probation Officer would say as much.

I mean, if a dog is moved in proximity to your dog such that most dogs would find it acceptable, and you have not otherwise given any indication to the other owner that your dog requires more space, and both animals are within the bounds of local animal control law, and your dog bites that dog and does damage, and all else is pretty equal ... realistically, you know that depending on jurisdiction there's a pretty darn good chance they could hold you liable for some damage compensation, right? Yeah, even if the other dog whined and looked at yours funny. Your dog's biting was the direct, proximate cause of damage even if the ultimate cause was the other dog acting dumb.

The same thing might not hold if the other dog bites back, too, though... and this is all just nitpicking anyway, because I don't much care which owner's fault it is and never did. That wasn't the point. But no sense in pretending that the distal cause of something is always the cause that is considered the most ethically or legally actionable, because that's philosophically contentious if not flat-out false.

Reread your bolded part. The practical aspects of this disagreement have all been addressed, and most everything else amounts to complaint about behaviors I'm not actually defending.
 
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pinkspore

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You're right, I've never seen your dog and therefore have nothing but your words but which to judge both his and your behavior. As demonstrated by the quotes I used, regardless of what you actually do with your dog, your attitude displays a certain amount of victim-blaming that clearly touched a nerve here with the owners of "overly defensive dogs that need way too much personal space". That's what we're all reacting to, the way you portray us and our dogs. Our dogs feel they need way more space than you feel necessary. Our dogs shouldn't feel threatened or offended.

Teenage boys are not kept on leash by their parents and dogs don't have probation officers, so there's many things that make my analogy imperfect, however I feel that the victim-blaming while simultaneously minimizing the behavior of the offensive party still stands.

As Sekah mentioned above, adult dogs approaching other adult dogs is already over the line. When I walk my dogs on the off-leash dog beach, the vast majority of them go well around mine or figure out from within a few feet that he is busy fetching and wants nothing to do with them. That is healthy, normal, polite dog behavior. Adult dogs don't need to play with every dog they see, anymore than you need to hug every stranger you meet. The fact that your dog wants to initiate play with someone who is clearly uninterested is a lot further over the line of appropriate behavior than you seem to think. This is clear both in the way you minimize this behavior and the way you blame the other dogs for overreacting.

Yes, you blame the other dogs for overreacting. Check those quotes up there, I left enough context to demonstrate what stuck out to me. No matter how you attempt to qualify it, your feelings are clear. "I'm not trying to says DINOS think they need too much personal space, but really they think they need personal space." It reads like "I'm not racist, but..." followed by the inevitable racist statement.

Now try to remember that, out in the world away from training centers and real dog people, us DINOS owners are in the minority. On a daily basis, many of us struggle with members of the public who haven't a clue about dog behavior, and we are constantly blamed and shamed when our dogs don't want to greet and play with every overbearing lunkhead. We are the stigmatized minority. In a training venue things are flipped around a bit, and the owners of overbearing lunkheads get to feel some of that stigma. Unfortunately we don't live in training classes and have to deal with the rest of the world the majority of the time.

So, again, regardless of what you actually say your problem is, it's coming across like "I'm not racist, but..." to a stigmatized minority. That's what we're all reacting to.
 
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You're right, I've never seen your dog and therefore have nothing but your words but which to judge both his and your behavior. As demonstrated by the quotes I used, regardless of what you actually do with your dog, your attitude displays a certain amount of victim-blaming that clearly touched a nerve here with the owners of "overly defensive dogs that need way too much personal space". That's what we're all reacting to, the way you portray us and our dogs. Our dogs feel they need way more space than you feel necessary. Our dogs shouldn't feel threatened or offended.
Victim-blaming defends those that do damage to another person in some way by saying the other person invited the damage.

If I wanted to, I'm pretty sure I could easily spin it to say that by claiming boisterous but friendly dogs were perpetually "asking for it" when it comes to another dog biting them and thereby actually damaging them, you're the one victim-blaming. I won't though, because I just don't find it a useful term in this context.

And in general, when one person yells at another and the other hits them for it, we don't call blaming the person that did the hitting for drawing blood "victim-blaming" even if they were technically a victim of someone being a jerk, and usually not even if the other person hits back (which may well be considered self-defense) unless they in turn overdo it. We call it disproportional response, and we wonder why they couldn't handle their discomfort in a more healthy way. As a person that does have social anxiety, I'm pretty fine saying that not all means of managing discomfort are appropriate. Standards are different for dogs and people but even so.

Trying to compare people with reactive dogs to a disadvantaged racial minority is something I'm not even going to touch.

Anyway, I'm pretty clear that it's unusual for dogs to approach one another without invitation - more clear than you're probably realizing I would guess, but YMMV on the way I word things. I'm also quite clear that most dogs do not almost immediately bite when other dogs approach within a few feet - they express their displeasure in other ways first, often for a somewhat prolonged period, before biting. And dogs that have essentially typical reactions (that will sometimes involve biting pushy dogs) really aren't the kinds of dogs my post was concerned with.
 
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I don't think anyone here would disagree that someone allowing their dog to bite another dog to correct it or thinking it's funny if they did is not cool.

However, whether you intend it or not, you do come off as excusing your dog's rudeness and blaming dogs who need space for feeling threatened.

You keep talking about how well you manage your dog - but then give examples where you clearly don't, to highlight how awful reactive dogs are. For example, your dog moved closer to another dog and you let him fixate, whine, and patter his feet at it. Then - SURPRISE! (not) - it lunged. Part of managing is interrupting rude behavior before either dog escalates, not just keeping your dog on a short leash.

That's what's rubbing me the wrong way - your own descriptions of these situations don't really portray good management of a rude dog, IMO, yet then you criticize the management of DINO/reactive dog owners.
 
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I don't think anyone here would disagree that someone allowing their dog to bite another dog to correct it or thinking it's funny if they did is not cool.

However, whether you intend it or not, you do come off as excusing your dog's rudeness and blaming dogs who need space for feeling threatened.

You keep talking about how well you manage your dog - but then give examples where you clearly don't, to highlight how awful reactive dogs are. For example, your dog moved closer to another dog and you let him fixate, whine, and patter his feet at it. Then - SURPRISE! (not) - it lunged. Part of managing is interrupting rude behavior before either dog escalates, not just keeping your dog on a short leash.

That's what's rubbing me the wrong way - your own descriptions of these situations don't really portray good management of a rude dog, IMO, yet then you criticize the management of DINO/reactive dog owners.
Land's sakes I did not let him fixate, and he is not the dog that moved closer. His position was fixed and I immediately started to redirect and calm him down, as I said. The people around, including the professional, were pretty uniformly alarmed by the speed and intensity other dog's response in comparison to what my dog was actually doing, though of course you don't know them well enough to evaluate the quality of their opinions.

And I don't criticize the management of all or even most reactive dog owners that I know. Just the few behaving, you know, like this:

someone allowing their dog to bite another dog to correct it or thinking it's funny if they did
 
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Land's sakes I did not let him fixate, and he is not the dog that moved closer. His position was fixed and I immediately started to redirect and calm him down, as I said.
If he was whining and toe tapping, then no you did not "immediately" redirect him and by that time your dog probably WAS fixating. Your dog may very well be escalating things sooner than you think he is.

Look, I get it. Maisy is both an incredibly rude dog and a reactive dog, and it sucks. She's just sort of socially stunted. For a while I didn't realize she was an instigator, because she is a dog who to the casual eye seems to innocently elicit snark from other dogs without doing anything. If I had a dollar for every time a dog snarked at her "quickly" and seemingly out of the blue (and another dollar for all the times the owner said "he NEVER acts that way!" which ultimately I came to believe 100%) I would be retired right now.

We think what she does, although it's very hard to determine, is give a very hard eye and then when the other dog reacts she reacts back. So managing her includes not letting her even really look at other dogs. Preventing and interrupting eye contact actually immediately. But for a long time? Look at these awful, reactive dogs who shouldn't be in public suddenly snarking at my poor Maisy who is just standing there.
 
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Preventing and interrupting eye contact actually immediately.
Because it is very simple indeed to prevent a dog from so much as looking at another dog that its owner has brought into your dog's space and line of sight without notice, despite their knowing that your dog is the kind of boisterous dog that their dog dislikes.

The other dog owner, with a reactive dog that they know does not like boisterous dogs and is liable to bite, certainly doesn't have any responsibility in avoiding that kind of dog, right?

The moment I saw that other dog move, I moved to redirect my dog. And yes, by the time the other dog snapped at him, he was quieting. It happened in a matter of 1-2 seconds.

But I should probably just let the fact that no one present considered my dog's behavior the bigger problem speak for itself.

No, suggesting my dog did not win that particular battle of appalling behavior doesn't mean I think it's "okay" for him to whine and patter, either. It's not. That's why I stopped it and train to get rid of it.

Look at these awful, reactive dogs who shouldn't be in public suddenly snarking at my poor Maisy who is just standing there.
Luckily, my attitude has never been that my dog is "poor" and just stands there and that reactive dogs are awful and shouldn't be in public. I just expect a modicum of consciousness on the part of reactive dog owners as well as boisterous dog owners.
 
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noludoru

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Okay, I give up. I've tried. Everyone has tried. Eventually you'll get it when something bad happens, but hopefully way before then. (Also, pattered feet is totally different than patted dog with feet which is what I read. The 4' comment stands)

I'm irritated. Starbuck has pulled off all her bandages. I said I needed an e-collar and the tech told me to just watch her and she'd be fine. SHE IS A PUPPY WITH BANDAGED PAWS WHAT CRACK ARE YOU SMOKING OR WHATEVER IT IS YOU DO WITH THAT STUFF. You also told me my highly drugged puppy was back to her normal self. She barely recognized me, couldn't walk without stumbling, and didn't move from my lap for hours. If that's what you think a puppy is like, get an adult.

So now I get to head back there and get an e collar and tape. I think I may ask for mild sedatives for night time, too.
 
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I see what you're trying to say you mean. That in those unfortunate scenarios where a dog that is being rude but very friendly ends up making a reactive dog or one who needs more personal space snarky BOTH owners should be managing the issues in both dogs. And it is unfair for each dog if only one has to be managed.

I think of this with my own dogs, they can be little bitches. I tend to not have them interacting with other dogs, I feel like I am constantly managing Chloe and she has come a long long way in her reactivity. However, when I stay at my boyfriends house they interact with the resident dog- a 14 year old flat coated retriever. They both can be snarky if he accidentally trips into them. Or if he runs/hops over wagging his tail trying to initiate play. He is a VERY friendly dog- wouldn't hurt a fly and luckily for me I don't have to worry about him reacting to my dogs becoming snarky. He misses or doesn't pay attention to all their more subtle signals (like whale eyes, tense stance, ears back, lips curling, etc.) part of that I would say is him being a bit dense and overly excited and not looking carefully enough. The other part is I have schnauzers with beards and eyebrows and docked tails which can make other dogs have more difficulty reading their more subtle cues. With that being said he is rude and gets right up in their face (being very friendly, yet being rude). So naturally my dogs will snark or nip at him and then he gets a little scared or like "oh god, you're not nice" and walks away.

Some of the things I find annoying is people with the impression of we are humans. They are dogs. Dogs need to love dogs and interact with them friendly. Dogs are not allowed to have personal space. Dogs are not allowed to have different personalities. All dogs must be bouncy dense super duper friendly to everyone everything. Or all dogs should have the traits of this particular dog or breed of dog.

And people that excuse the rude dog. I would always blame the rude dog, although people with the other dogs could advocate more for their dogs. But in all of these situations it's still the question- why is their a rude dog being obtrusive onto this dogs space?

In the end both ends should be managing their dogs.

In my world though, I see soooooo many people under the impression that their dog is allowed to or should go play with every single dog it sees. And they just let their dogs run up being super rude and get into others space without asking. Even if the other person is okay with it, I find it annoying. But I am biased with reactive dogs so I am a bit more sensitive to this thing.

Even if people do advocate for their dogs you would be suprised by how many people in the average pet population will ignore you when you say "please stay back!" "My dog is not friendly" "my dog is scared of other dogs" "my dog will bite your dog" "stay back we are training!" Etc.

For example, I was at a pet store working with Chloe who is/was my reactive dog. A guy with a Keeshond started approaching us. I told him to stay away as I was managing Chloe to not react. He kept coming closer, I told him she was aggressive and would bite his dog. He now was basically having his dog all in my space as I am putting Chloe behind me since we didn't have much space to get away at the time and he's saying "my dog is very friendly and will help your dog! He won't care if he gets bit!"

People are dumb. And after having a reactive dog I get so fed up with people like this and there are many.

At the same time I get that the average pet population is uneducated and doesn't know any better. Heck, I'm not perfect and I am still learning to read dog body language and various things. I'm doing my best to continue my education as much as possible and have learned a lot the past few years. So idk I feel like I just rambled on and on. I understand both sides here. But there are definitely things you said that makes me dislike your attitude about things. But I do agree with your one point.
 

k9krazee

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I have a dog who overreacts when he feels a dog is too close, a dog is too boisterous, a dog runs too quickly by him, etc. He tries to avoid contact and confrontation but bark/snaps as his first line of defense.

I also have a rude dog who gets in other dogs spaces inappropriately.

Astonishingly, they're great together but I find in public people WANT me to make excuses for them. I don't have any excuses, like people every dog is unique and has different personalities and thresholds. It's just up to me to manage both dogs differently and appropriately.

/pointless post
 
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The other dog owner, with a reactive dog that they know does not like boisterous dogs and is liable to bite, certainly doesn't have any responsibility in avoiding that kind of dog, right?
Oh, I totally forgot that I said that. No, wait... I didn't say that at all.

The moment I saw that other dog move, I moved to redirect my dog. And yes, by the time the other dog snapped at him, he was quieting. It happened in a matter of 1-2 seconds.
Wow, your dog is super fast. How many times can he whine and patter his feet in 2 seconds? You should put together an act.

I sincerely hope you keep getting lucky. :)
 
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Oh, I totally forgot that I said that. No, wait... I didn't say that at all.
No, you didn't, much as I didn't actually write quite a few things that have been attributed to me here. However, you did seem to me to be ignoring the extent to which the other person's actions (moving their reactive dog nearer to mine even knowing my dog was bouncy) contributed to the overall situation, particularly how it would have made it difficult to curtail the situation entirely or before my dog showed any visible signs of excitement, seeing as they gave no indication they were going to be moving their dog. You actually misread and asserted I'd said my dog was the one that moved closer, or possibly just assumed it. So.... rhetorical question, you know?

How many times can he whine and patter his feet in 2 seconds?
Not very many. Which is exactly why the other dog trying to bite seemed rather unusual to everyone, I would strongly suspect. ;)

I sincerely hope you keep getting lucky.
I'm fairly sure a bite being prevented here was due to both dogs being leashed apart and due to their having owners that worked to calm them down respectively, not luck.
 

Beanie

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As someone who teaches dog training classes I would like to point out
1) It's very difficult to actually kick someone out of your classes being they have paid you for a service and in lawsuit happy America you have to be careful of upsetting anyone for a reason they might be able to invent that will result in legal action. For a small business this is often not worth the trouble, time-wise, bad press-wise, or financially.

2) Especially in a group class it is incredibly difficult to watch all dogs and monitor all the nuances of their behaviour at all times. Once you have been put on notice that someone's dog has less than desirable social skills, you watch more closely and suddenly see lots of things you never saw before - and certainly things your pet owners don't see. Like sass, if I had a dollar for every time I pointed out some nuance of behaviour a dog displays and the owner stares, mistified, and says "I never would have noticed that," the sheltiechick crew would be in Hawaii right now. The behaviour of a student themselves also comes into play, "it all travels down the leash" after all. And my behavioural studies in school were in fact on humans rather than dogs.
But ultimately I do not have the Jedi-like ability to monitor all the nuances of all five of my students and their dogs at once. I would very much like to meet the person who does so I might inject my blood with the midichlorians in their body and hope to also become a Jedi, because I want a lightsaber and also to use the Force to bring me a beer.


Carry on.
 

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