The dog musing/vent thread
- Thread starter Laurelin
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I've been to a ton of different events with my dogs and I can honestly say I've never had someone allow their dog to approach mine except at community outreach dog fair type things. I have definitely never been to any kind of training that involved the dogs being close enough to bump into one another by accident. I'm having trouble even visualizing something like that. If someone's dog is close enough to accidentally bump into mine, they are way the hell too close.
That's great for you. On the other hand every event or training group I have been to has involved dogs being in close enough proximity for accidental run-ins to occur on occasion, particularly if a dog gets playful and doesn't look where it's going or while dogs are being transported from here to there and passing one another in tight-ish spaces, and I have seen dogs jump barriers, I have seen leashes slip out of hands or out of knots, I have seen dogs slip collars, I have seen dogs break off-leash stays, I've seen dogs that weren't supposed to be on the field get onto the field etc. etc. Not even the usual meat-headed, no-obedience-training suspects, not owned by inexperienced or painfully irresponsible people, and not being worked in badly regarded places. I have definitely seen dogs get grumpy with one another because a dog got too close - even when "too close" was way across the room. Often allowances are made for those dogs and they are given more space according to what enables them to participate, insofar as it's possible to do so.
I have never seen someone intentionally allow a dog to approach another dog in a training class, but yeah, I have definitely seen dogs try and make unauthorized visits every once in a while. And while I only have my experienced to go on I would be pretty surprised if I just had a freakish talent for picking the uber rare places where dogs sometimes stray within sniffing range.
I have never seen someone intentionally allow a dog to approach another dog in a training class, but yeah, I have definitely seen dogs try and make unauthorized visits every once in a while. And while I only have my experienced to go on I would be pretty surprised if I just had a freakish talent for picking the uber rare places where dogs sometimes stray within sniffing range.
I mean, I don't think it's cool for someone to laugh if their dog snarks at someone else's dog. But I don't think it's cool for someone to allow their dog to get in another dog's face, either, especially a dog who doesn't tolerate snark. It just feels like saying "I can't believe how rude people are!" while... being rude.
I've seen dogs get loose at events too. When it happens, the reaction of nearly everyone present is "Get your dog. Get it under control. Don't let it happen again or you won't be welcome here." Admittedly I've only done dog stuff in southern California, but the overwhelming attitude I've seen has been that letting your dog get loose is unacceptable.
Very occasionally I see some respond to the effect of "It happens, get over it, those people with the snarky dogs should teach them to be more forgiving and respectful of my space invader." The last time I saw this happen was when a "he's friendly, he just wants to say hi" ridgeback slipped his collar and got onto the field while a maltese was coursing. The ridgeback's owner just couldn't understand why they were asked to leave, **** happens and dogs get loose sometimes so why was everyone making such a big deal out of it?
I've never been to any kind of dog thing with tight spaces, things just aren't set up that way. Might be another regional difference, but reactive dogs having the space they need to feel comfortable enough to perform is pretty normal here. I've never had an issue with not having enough space to move safely past other dogs.
Yes!
Very occasionally I see some respond to the effect of "It happens, get over it, those people with the snarky dogs should teach them to be more forgiving and respectful of my space invader." The last time I saw this happen was when a "he's friendly, he just wants to say hi" ridgeback slipped his collar and got onto the field while a maltese was coursing. The ridgeback's owner just couldn't understand why they were asked to leave, **** happens and dogs get loose sometimes so why was everyone making such a big deal out of it?
I've never been to any kind of dog thing with tight spaces, things just aren't set up that way. Might be another regional difference, but reactive dogs having the space they need to feel comfortable enough to perform is pretty normal here. I've never had an issue with not having enough space to move safely past other dogs.
Yes!
Rowan, though he dislikes other dogs, is usually extremely patient and gives very appropriate warnings if they invade his space... but he will absolutely snark if another dog rushes him and surprises him, and while that might not exactly be appropriate behavior, it would be prevented by the other person not allowing their dog to be rude in the first place. I'm not going to keep my otherwise well behaved dog out of the public because other people can't control their dogs. My dog deserves to have his personal space. Putting the blame on the owner of Dog 2 because Dog 2 will snap and snapping will make Dog 1 turn it into a fight when Dog 1 was the one being rude in the first place is ridiculous.
Putting this here because it's dog job related.
I found a couple listings that sound like hard work but promising. One is a position as a grooming apprentice/bather and the other as a dog daycare attendant. Not sure I know which one would suit me better - a groomer did let me shadow her for a few weeks before though - but it can't hurt to apply to them both.
I found a couple listings that sound like hard work but promising. One is a position as a grooming apprentice/bather and the other as a dog daycare attendant. Not sure I know which one would suit me better - a groomer did let me shadow her for a few weeks before though - but it can't hurt to apply to them both.
I guess it depends on what kind of places you are referring to. Pet dog training places? I wouldn't be shocked. Community dog events like walk-a-thons? Absolutely. There is a reason I would never attend something like that.
Serious trainers and dog sport events (or at least agility trials, which is about all I can speak to with any real authority)? Nope. Every class or seminar I've ever been to (lots, over the last 9 years) has been very well set up to keep dogs safe. Dogs are generally in crates or ex-pens if they aren't running. Occasionally there will be a couple of dogs out working at once, but it is after the trainer has had a chance to see the dogs and know how to make pairings. Our club agility practice sometimes has multiple dogs working on different sequences at once; we plan the pairings ourselves ("Hey, Meg isn't going to leave me to go bother anyone, but she also isn't going to be happy if a dog runs up to her; whose dog won't leave them?").
And trials? Forget it. Meg is more relaxed at trials than almost anywhere else in public. She can stand soft and loose and happy while we are in a crowded in-gate, with people behind us, people trying to shove by with their dogs to see the run order, and a dog running around in the ring in front of us. She's learned well over the years that the people at trials simply don't let their dogs bother her, so she has no reason to feel like she has to be on guard. The occasional dog who cops a sniff as they walk by barely causes her to bat an eye.
I actually was chatting with a fellow competitor at our trial last weekend; I've competed with this person for years, and the topic of reactive dogs somehow came up. I said something about how much of a relief it is to live with a dog like Gusto who just doesn't worry about other dogs, after so long with Meg. And she said "Oh, is Meg not good with other dogs?" Since she only sees her at trials, she'd never seen a bit of the Other Side of Meg:
(And yes, I laughed my butt off and took a picture of this moment. We had just finished hiking with a friend and her dogs, and her golden, with whom Meg gets along great because he is a well-adjusted, socially appropriate dog, was sniffing around the back of my car. The girl does protect her crate, and is thus covered with a sheet in crowded crating areas at trials.)
Serious trainers and dog sport events (or at least agility trials, which is about all I can speak to with any real authority)? Nope. Every class or seminar I've ever been to (lots, over the last 9 years) has been very well set up to keep dogs safe. Dogs are generally in crates or ex-pens if they aren't running. Occasionally there will be a couple of dogs out working at once, but it is after the trainer has had a chance to see the dogs and know how to make pairings. Our club agility practice sometimes has multiple dogs working on different sequences at once; we plan the pairings ourselves ("Hey, Meg isn't going to leave me to go bother anyone, but she also isn't going to be happy if a dog runs up to her; whose dog won't leave them?").
And trials? Forget it. Meg is more relaxed at trials than almost anywhere else in public. She can stand soft and loose and happy while we are in a crowded in-gate, with people behind us, people trying to shove by with their dogs to see the run order, and a dog running around in the ring in front of us. She's learned well over the years that the people at trials simply don't let their dogs bother her, so she has no reason to feel like she has to be on guard. The occasional dog who cops a sniff as they walk by barely causes her to bat an eye.
I actually was chatting with a fellow competitor at our trial last weekend; I've competed with this person for years, and the topic of reactive dogs somehow came up. I said something about how much of a relief it is to live with a dog like Gusto who just doesn't worry about other dogs, after so long with Meg. And she said "Oh, is Meg not good with other dogs?" Since she only sees her at trials, she'd never seen a bit of the Other Side of Meg:
(And yes, I laughed my butt off and took a picture of this moment. We had just finished hiking with a friend and her dogs, and her golden, with whom Meg gets along great because he is a well-adjusted, socially appropriate dog, was sniffing around the back of my car. The girl does protect her crate, and is thus covered with a sheet in crowded crating areas at trials.)
Those are in fact the kinds of people and places I'm referring to (with the exception of agility trials, which I've never been to). Not community pet events, not pet store training, etc. And yes, I have still seen accidents happen. Not the norm, brief and quickly corrected, but there... and again, I doubt I have a sixth sense for picking places where dogs occasionally get close to one another. Reactive dogs are given more space, but it is frequently a deliberate accommodation on the part of people running classes and events and on the part of other participants.
It is possible that I'm just on high alert for potential dog crossover situations because my dog gets loud when other dogs get too close (4-6 feet and he will start to get more excitable). The potential for dogs getting near one another is less rare than the actuality of it.
Okay, although no one was doing that anyway.
Unfortunately it's not a complaint about "rudeness" - it's what the sentiment could lead to. It's not that the dog doing the correcting is being "rude", it's not (only) that it's "rude" to laugh at your dog biting another dog... definitely not that I personally allow my dog to be rude and then complain about the result. You can read that into it if you want, by all means, but when I'm making direct statements to the contrary... well.
The problem is that if you take the position that it's a good thing if your dog bites the other dog and then allow a fight to be triggered when you could see a bite coming and could have intervened instead, you're putting both dogs at risk of an actual fight that could do actual damage. Yeah, the other owner did that too, I know. Stand there blaming them if you want, or do something about it and keep the dogs safe.
The problem is people who think the best solution to a dog invading their dog's space is to stand back and let their dog go after it.
Bottom line, I don't find it any more appropriate to freely allow a dog under my care to physically correct another dog that is annoying them than I would to freely allow a child under my care to physically correct another kid that was annoying them. Even if the other dog/kid is being a gigantic brat. Especially if I don't know the other dog/kid and how they will react. I'm not going to get too mad at them if it happens, but I will be upset at myself. When these things happen, I should be trying to get in there and stop the situation from deteriorating, because I am a responsible party, even if the brat is not mine to herd by right and it's really their person's fault that the overall situation is happening to begin with.
Leaving a situation generating tension in your dog to two impulsive, unreasoning critters to sort out themselves is prematurely self-absolving and frankly risky if you have a vested interest in keeping your dog (if not the other) puncture wound free.
If your dog is unusually easy to annoy (I am not talking about tolerant dogs that will snark occasionally, or arthritic dogs that don't want things jumping on them, blah blah), then sure, it's not at all a bad idea to ask yourself why that might be, and try and work on that with them for their own sake rather than chalking it up to how annoying soooo many other dogs are. Not because it's better for people with bratty dogs, but because the more adaptable and tolerant your dog can learn to be, the easier things are going to be for them under whatever circumstances may arise for them.
It's not your dog's responsibility, or your responsibility, to teach other dogs their manners. By all means, yell at the owner. Nothing I've said should be giving you indication that I care even a little about that.
Aaaaand.... to you two I want to say congrats, good luck and sorry that a debate is currently hogging the thread. 
It is possible that I'm just on high alert for potential dog crossover situations because my dog gets loud when other dogs get too close (4-6 feet and he will start to get more excitable). The potential for dogs getting near one another is less rare than the actuality of it.
Okay, although no one was doing that anyway.
Unfortunately it's not a complaint about "rudeness" - it's what the sentiment could lead to. It's not that the dog doing the correcting is being "rude", it's not (only) that it's "rude" to laugh at your dog biting another dog... definitely not that I personally allow my dog to be rude and then complain about the result. You can read that into it if you want, by all means, but when I'm making direct statements to the contrary... well.
The problem is that if you take the position that it's a good thing if your dog bites the other dog and then allow a fight to be triggered when you could see a bite coming and could have intervened instead, you're putting both dogs at risk of an actual fight that could do actual damage. Yeah, the other owner did that too, I know. Stand there blaming them if you want, or do something about it and keep the dogs safe.
The problem is people who think the best solution to a dog invading their dog's space is to stand back and let their dog go after it.
Bottom line, I don't find it any more appropriate to freely allow a dog under my care to physically correct another dog that is annoying them than I would to freely allow a child under my care to physically correct another kid that was annoying them. Even if the other dog/kid is being a gigantic brat. Especially if I don't know the other dog/kid and how they will react. I'm not going to get too mad at them if it happens, but I will be upset at myself. When these things happen, I should be trying to get in there and stop the situation from deteriorating, because I am a responsible party, even if the brat is not mine to herd by right and it's really their person's fault that the overall situation is happening to begin with.
Leaving a situation generating tension in your dog to two impulsive, unreasoning critters to sort out themselves is prematurely self-absolving and frankly risky if you have a vested interest in keeping your dog (if not the other) puncture wound free.
If your dog is unusually easy to annoy (I am not talking about tolerant dogs that will snark occasionally, or arthritic dogs that don't want things jumping on them, blah blah), then sure, it's not at all a bad idea to ask yourself why that might be, and try and work on that with them for their own sake rather than chalking it up to how annoying soooo many other dogs are. Not because it's better for people with bratty dogs, but because the more adaptable and tolerant your dog can learn to be, the easier things are going to be for them under whatever circumstances may arise for them.
It's not your dog's responsibility, or your responsibility, to teach other dogs their manners. By all means, yell at the owner. Nothing I've said should be giving you indication that I care even a little about that.
Won a hero disc USA contest for some free plastic- we have a few comps coming up so I am super excited! The pups are going to be very happy. I never win contests!
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Maybe it's just that agility people are so hyper-aware of the potential issues, what with the prevalence of breeds less likely to be super tolerant of pushy dogs. Other than a couple of breed shows and obedience trials I've been to (and one very short visit to a flyball event, which has got to be a world unto itself), that's where the majority of my experience is. And it just doesn't happen more than 'rarely'. People standing by are quick to grab dogs who may be out of control (and the loose dogs I see are usually worried border collies trotting around looking for their owner and ignoring all other dogs and people), or to step unobtrusively between two dogs who may have an issue. And people are just on top of their dogs the vast majority of the time. It may be in my best interest to stay in this particular corner of the dog world - it is one of the things I love most about it!
Honestly, I think most of the people I know are on top of their dogs, too. Like I said, it's not the norm and usually swiftly corrected. But I've definitely seen dogs get within a distance that might offend a dog with rather wide boundaries. They get brought back ASAP, but they get there first. And like I also said, I keep my eyes peeled for this kind of thing... and am probably making it sound worse than I mean to, I just see where the accidents could potentially occur. The most "alarming" thing I've ever seen was a puppy brought for socialization startling a GSD and getting stepped on by accident to no actual harm... not really that alarming.
Ahhh so nice out this morning. We spent 3 hours just hanging on the porch and it was perfect. Come on FALL!
At events sometimes issues happen but it's rare in my experience. Most my friends have dogs that aren't very dog friendly all the time and Hank is the kind of dog a lot of dogs (BCs in particular) can be overwhelmed by. I also appreciate space just from years of having my own snarkbutt papillons. Most people keep to themselves and keep safe distances away from other dogs. And people let each other know when they have a snarky dog. People watch out when others go through gates so the dogs aren't ever too close.
At classes dogs are crated between runs and if we have multiples out its when dogs are on leash. In the advanced distractions class we did have multiples out sometimes but these were experienced dogs and we still planned carefully. Ie: Summer was not out when the prey driven belgian was. Etc etc.
At events sometimes issues happen but it's rare in my experience. Most my friends have dogs that aren't very dog friendly all the time and Hank is the kind of dog a lot of dogs (BCs in particular) can be overwhelmed by. I also appreciate space just from years of having my own snarkbutt papillons. Most people keep to themselves and keep safe distances away from other dogs. And people let each other know when they have a snarky dog. People watch out when others go through gates so the dogs aren't ever too close.
At classes dogs are crated between runs and if we have multiples out its when dogs are on leash. In the advanced distractions class we did have multiples out sometimes but these were experienced dogs and we still planned carefully. Ie: Summer was not out when the prey driven belgian was. Etc etc.
Is there a way to train a dog not to punch you in the face while you cuddle? Every morning Hank punches me in the face stretching while he wakes up.
Poor Brisbane is a sad, sad dog this evening. Everyone else gets to eat dinner, but not Briz. Poor, poor Briz.
I tried explaining to him that dogs that somehow manage to steal half a pizza off the counter and devour it in the ~20 minutes between my leaving for work and my husband getting up this morning, don't get dinner. Briz disagrees.
I'm not even sure how he got it down from there. Either the cats helped, or Brisbane has figured out how to not only move the stepstool into position but also put it away.
This is why you're fat, Briz.
I tried explaining to him that dogs that somehow manage to steal half a pizza off the counter and devour it in the ~20 minutes between my leaving for work and my husband getting up this morning, don't get dinner. Briz disagrees.
I'm not even sure how he got it down from there. Either the cats helped, or Brisbane has figured out how to not only move the stepstool into position but also put it away.
This is why you're fat, Briz.
Is there a way to train a dog not to punch you in the face while you cuddle? Every morning Hank punches me in the face stretching while he wakes up.
Apparently training dogs and not letting them do whatever they want and teaching them agility and basic obedience and tricks is animal cruelty? Who knew?
Also if one more person tells me to train Wilson to do anything by leash-popping/smacking/yelling at him I'm going to lose it. Same with Sam but he is fairly well behaved all the time so I don't get told this as often with him. This is an incredibly sensitive dog who has come miles and miles from where he used to be regarding his fear issues. Even if I did believe that there was ever a place in training for hitting and yelling, this would NOT be the dog to do it with.
*end rant*
Also if one more person tells me to train Wilson to do anything by leash-popping/smacking/yelling at him I'm going to lose it. Same with Sam but he is fairly well behaved all the time so I don't get told this as often with him. This is an incredibly sensitive dog who has come miles and miles from where he used to be regarding his fear issues. Even if I did believe that there was ever a place in training for hitting and yelling, this would NOT be the dog to do it with.
*end rant*
Okay, this is relevant but random- I had a guy with a Doberman on a flexi allow his bitch to run up to us and others at a dog show on Saturday. Starbuck is young and tolerant, but wow. Stupidity. Other than that, at training I've NEVER had an issue.
These two posts stand out to me. After having a very reactive dog and a puppy who is shaping up to be reactive, I'm not amused by "he's friendly!" Or "he's just boisterous!" Or "he doesn't know how to take no for an answer!" NO. Keep your dog on a leash, under control. Please remember that the middle part of the leash is not hot lava, and you can hold there, too when another dog is offended by your encroachment into their bubble, even if you don't view it as their personal space.
This is why people have a problem with your post. This is what you're saying. Most of us have or have had highly reactive dogs, and we work on managing them and training them. It's you and people like you with dogs who are lacking social skills who are "just friendly" who are the problem. I've been on both sides of it, and neither side is very fun, but both sides require management and training.
These two posts stand out to me. After having a very reactive dog and a puppy who is shaping up to be reactive, I'm not amused by "he's friendly!" Or "he's just boisterous!" Or "he doesn't know how to take no for an answer!" NO. Keep your dog on a leash, under control. Please remember that the middle part of the leash is not hot lava, and you can hold there, too when another dog is offended by your encroachment into their bubble, even if you don't view it as their personal space.
This is why people have a problem with your post. This is what you're saying. Most of us have or have had highly reactive dogs, and we work on managing them and training them. It's you and people like you with dogs who are lacking social skills who are "just friendly" who are the problem. I've been on both sides of it, and neither side is very fun, but both sides require management and training.
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eddieqSilence! I ban you!
