The dog musing/vent thread

I actually met one of my neighbor's for the 1st time. The dogs were outside playing and he came out of his garage, which, our garages are attached and we share a driveway so to Juno this looked like he was on "her" territory.... so she ran to the edge of the driveway barking at him. She saw him before I did. It was slightly embarrassing, even though I don't think there's actually anything wrong with what she did... although after the usual "welcome to the neighborhood" introduction mumbo jumbo he did make some comment about how he can tell my dogs are "obviously under control." It wasn't even sarcastic.

As I'm calling for Juno and corralling her back in, Sawyer is like OMG PERSON LET ME SAY HAI and ran up to him and melted at his feet.

I'm glad I somehow managed to maintain an impression of control :popcorn:

And I'm not sure how we managed to go 3 weeks before having an incident like this.
 
Gosh... Alright.

I don't know if Signal is going to work out in my living situation. I discovered that she is actually extremely territorial with strong protective aggression/active aggression towards anyone in the hallway of my apartment, waiting at the elevator, or in the parking lot. Reactive/territorial from inside my apartment at people walking by in the hallway. I wish I lived in a single-family home or a ranch somewhere.

This is actually depressing and maddening, weirdly. Signal and I clearly bonded very quickly, she learned a bunch of new commands in a couple days and is already housebroken, but the rescue was APPARENTLY completely unaware of her territorial instinct and that it is unsuited for apartment living- I'm sure being in this environment also would stress her out, being constantly on the alert for "intruders" aka my neighbors, which are literally everywhere and all around us. She is EXTREMELY territorial, clear protective aggression/active aggression when she sees someone in the hall, and thank god she is only 35 lbs. It's not fear-based aggression at all. She is very hard and tough both physically and mentally, very willing to bite and tug and use her mouth on every new object I'm willing to offer to her, and I think would honestly do well in protection sport. (lol..) And her instinct is not a fault at all. I like protective aggression when I'm living somewhere in a single-family home. But since I am in an apartment built in this weird way where it's like one long hallway connecting a bunch of rooms, like a hotel, I did mention in my adoption application that I would like a dog with no territorial instinct and no fear-aggression/any aggression and only reactivity when over-stimulated/playing. And that's what the foster mom told me: that she "has no aggression whatsoever, not territorial, and is friendly to everybody she meets"... which is obviously now proven extremely untrue. I'm sure the rescue was obviously completely unaware and had no way of knowing how she would act in an apartment environment in the city with shared indoor quarters, because she lived on a ranch in the middle of nowhere in the foster home. This whole issue of Signal not working out in my apartment has been stressing me out so much in the past day, I actually cried. What even.

I don't know. That was a rant. Is this some kind of godly test on me? What is this God test on my nerves and heart or whatever on my dog adoption situation... lol. Kill me, I am literally cursed. I really think Signal should find a single-family home or ranch or other living situation where there are no shared indoor quarters, somewhere better suited for her. She is literally perfect in every way, I love her craziness and drive and willingness to obey and learn, and her athleticism is perfect for both flyball and disc... except for the fact that I live in a dumb apartment shaped like a Hyatt hotel.

This is the saddest thing I have ever encountered in the past few years of my life. Somebody un-curse me.

The rescue really would have had no way of knowing how she would act in an apartment in the city... but then if they did not know, they also should not state it as fact that she is "not territorial, not aggressive, and loves everybody"... that could be the most false statement I have ever heard about this girl. If anything is stronger than her protective aggression, it would be her ball drive and herding drive, and that's it.

She is literally a perfect dog though. But this rescue needs to step it up. Or they don't. Life just worked out for the worse, that's all.

TL;DR I love Signal and the rescue did not know anything about her apparently, and her EXTREME protective aggression and territorial instinct is not working out in my apartment situation built like a Hyatt hotel. She thinks the entire apartment and the surrounding sidewalk is mine, and I don't blame her one bit.
 
I don't know how intense the behaviour is, but I don't think it's a good idea to write her off yet. It probably won't be easy, but she's gone through a lot of stuff lately and she's probably stressed. I would hope that you'd be able to improve this problem behaviour over time.
 
I agree with the above. You've had her less than a week. You have no idea what her true behaviors are like, yet.

But send her my way if you need. ;)
 
You just brought her home a few days ago right?

You really need to give her some time to adjust. With all the changes she's probably in a super high state of arousal. Keeda was a very chill, laid back dog about almost anything. When I moved from a quiet dead end road to a busy street she literally spent the first week alert barking at every.little.noise.light.everything. She finally settled down, but that first week was really rough.

It's totally normal to panic and think "OMG! What have I done!!!!!", but once you both have time to adjust things mellow out a lot. :-)
 
Sekah said:
I don't know how intense the behaviour is, but I don't think it's a good idea to write her off yet. It probably won't be easy, but she's gone through a lot of stuff lately and she's probably stressed. I would hope that you'd be able to improve this problem behaviour over time.
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DJEtzel said:
I agree with the above. You've had her less than a week. You have no idea what her true behaviors are like, yet.

But send her my way if you need. ;)
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xpaeanx said:
You just brought her home a few days ago right?

You really need to give her some time to adjust. With all the changes she's probably in a super high state of arousal. Keeda was a very chill, laid back dog about almost anything. When I moved from a quiet dead end road to a busy street she literally spent the first week alert barking at every.little.noise.light.everything. She finally settled down, but that first week was really rough.

It's totally normal to panic and think "OMG! What have I done!!!!!", but once you both have time to adjust things mellow out a lot. :-)
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Thanks, I definitely haven't written her off yet- I totally love everything about her and her craziness and energy. But I also hope I don't get in trouble with my apartment in the first week that I have her, or however long it takes for the behavior to possibly settle.

The territorial bitey behavior is actually very intense- she managed to nip a guy's arm yesterday when she was displaying her aggression, and I was trying to pull her in the opposite direction, and the guy was just standing very still waiting for the elevator. It didn't draw blood, but she was lunging, snarling, and snapping- the dude was just standing there trying to look as frozen as possible. (Which is the first point that I started to go "WHAT HAVE I SERIOUSLY DONE") For lancer's previous fear-based aggression, it's easier to avoid the situations, because he cowered first when the person/object was very far away- only turned into an aggressive display when they came closer. In her case, if she spots someone in the apartment far away, she goes on high alert growling and stares them dead-on with her whole body language and starts baying if they move. IF they need to walk by me: lunging, snarling, snapping, and barking all at the same time. I'm really surprised that the rescue would not know this about her, and listed her off as "completely no aggression, not territorial, loves everybody" LOL, but then they did have her on a large property with practically no neighbors all around.

I'm never one to write off a dog so easily with even some moderate level of behavioral issues that I can control... but I thought otherwise, only because she is actually a lot stronger than me, proven she can pull me around to bite people, and the instinct itself is also very high. If it continues and doesn't die down, I don't think I'm able to control it in my apartment environment. If I lived in a house, it would be 100% totally fine.
 
It's entirely possible she just never displayed that behavior with them. I mean there were things in Happy's bio that when I had her I was like... yeah no not true. I just assume different people and environments = different behaviors.
 
Southpaw said:
It's entirely possible she just never displayed that behavior with them. I mean there were things in Happy's bio that when I had her I was like... yeah no not true. I just assume different people and environments = different behaviors.
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Yeah, I'm sure- since she lived in a completely different environment on a ranch-like area for both where she grew up and her foster home. I'm 100% sure that the rescue was not aware of this behavior in an apartment/in the city when they gave her to me, so it's just bad luck again on my end.. at least in terms of my living situation. WHY DO I LIVE IN AN APARTMENT...
 
You need to get a trainer working with you, time frame: yesterday.

Just because a dog isn't cowering first, doesn't mean the aggressive behaviors aren't fear based. I also wouldn't count on the behaviors "settling" in lieu of working with a professional.

Signal sounds a lot like Skill. Sara didn't see the same behaviors I saw because we live such different lifestyles (he showed leash reactive behaviors toward people, but Sara's dogs are lucky enough to not ever really have to be on leashes :p), and he was VERY reactive to people in my apartment hallways and outside, but loves meeting people off-leash/after a couple introduction minutes in my apartment. It has nothing to do with being territorial.

We're three months in and he's doing awesome. And yes, I'm sure some of it was getting settled, but I also did a ton of work to get him there.

Get a training/behavior mod plan in place now, don't wait for the behavior to worsen or for Signal to really bite someone.
 
If you're struggling to physically stop the dog while snapping, I would introduce a muzzle ASAP. I agree with everyone about more time and getting a trainer's help. But a muzzle will make everyone safer IMO.
 
PWCorgi said:
You need to get a trainer working with you, time frame: yesterday.

Just because a dog isn't cowering first, doesn't mean the aggressive behaviors aren't fear based. I also wouldn't count on the behaviors "settling" in lieu of working with a professional.

Signal sounds a lot like Skill. Sara didn't see the same behaviors I saw because we live such different lifestyles (he showed leash reactive behaviors toward people, but Sara's dogs are lucky enough to not ever really have to be on leashes :p), and he was VERY reactive to people in my apartment hallways and outside, but loves meeting people off-leash/after a couple introduction minutes in my apartment. It has nothing to do with being territorial.

We're three months in and he's doing awesome. And yes, I'm sure some of it was getting settled, but I also did a ton of work to get him there.

Get a training/behavior mod plan in place now, don't wait for the behavior to worsen or for Signal to really bite someone.
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FG167 said:
If you're struggling to physically stop the dog while snapping, I would introduce a muzzle ASAP. I agree with everyone about more time and getting a trainer's help. But a muzzle will make everyone safer IMO.
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Thanks guys, and I agree that I need to get a muzzle today. I still believe that the behavior is more likely based in territorial instinct, because she becomes fine with strangers when outside of the apartment. But then it's also possible that being indoors puts her in an anxious/fearful state. Either way, I'll try to contact a trainer today who is experienced in behavior modification. I can't use the same method on Sig as I did with Lancer, because Lancer's fear was just at everything in general, no matter the situation... so bringing him to a park with the Chuckit, a different park, anywhere to do training was all the same to him. To Signal, the behavior only props up inside the apartment complex. 0 to 200 in every crazy way, even aggression... seriously. LOL.

Also, I think I will make a thread somewhere down there just for Siggy's training instead of on the dog musing thread... ahah. I'm sure there will be a lot of posts from me.
 
Also... yeah, I was freaking out yesterday with what happened and her actual contact with the man's arm, so I got all emotional and terrible in my first post back there about ditching her. But nah, I'll work through this. DOG EXPERIENCE, CONTINUE LEARNING. /FLEXES
 
Well I do think some dogs are just not right for apartment settings. Whether that is Signal or not, I am not sure. But that said, it can take a good while for everyone to adjust when you get a new dog. Hank had behaviors his first two weeks that have settled down a lot now ~ 10 months later. The underlying temperament is still there but with the stress from the adjustment to living with me, etc, it was all very amplified at first.
 
Well I do think some dogs are just not right for apartment settings.
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I do agree. I absolutely think it is commendable to be dedicated to working with her and trying to help her with the issue, and I know you've had experience with fear issues so you at least have a bit of an idea what you are getting into, which some people wouldn't. I'm not trying to cast doubt on your abilities to handle the situation, because you seem quite knowledgeable and you are being smart by acting quickly.

But remember to be fair to both yourself and to her with all this. It sounds very much like you want a fun, go everywhere, do-things-with, sport dog. Are you okay with that being maybe several years down the line, when you've done all this work and she's trustworthy in all situations? Are you okay with that maybe being something that waits for the next dog, if she isn't ever comfortable with that sort of a lifestyle? With altering the way you live your life to keep both her and your neighbors safe?

Maybe it's unfair to the situation that I see it differently than if someone came on with a dog they had owned for 2 years, and since moving into this new apartment they were seeing these behaviors. I'd completely advocate for trying everything to work with the dog. But with a new rescue, who was apparently showing no aggression in a very different situation...it is different to me.

If she were to stay, I think you've gotten great advice. And I absolutely wish you the best of luck.
 
BostonBanker said:
I do agree. I absolutely think it is commendable to be dedicated to working with her and trying to help her with the issue, and I know you've had experience with fear issues so you at least have a bit of an idea what you are getting into, which some people wouldn't. I'm not trying to cast doubt on your abilities to handle the situation, because you seem quite knowledgeable and you are being smart by acting quickly.

But remember to be fair to both yourself and to her with all this. It sounds very much like you want a fun, go everywhere, do-things-with, sport dog. Are you okay with that being maybe several years down the line, when you've done all this work and she's trustworthy in all situations? Are you okay with that maybe being something that waits for the next dog, if she isn't ever comfortable with that sort of a lifestyle? With altering the way you live your life to keep both her and your neighbors safe?

Maybe it's unfair to the situation that I see it differently than if someone came on with a dog they had owned for 2 years, and since moving into this new apartment they were seeing these behaviors. I'd completely advocate for trying everything to work with the dog. But with a new rescue, who was apparently showing no aggression in a very different situation...it is different to me.

If she were to stay, I think you've gotten great advice. And I absolutely wish you the best of luck.
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All your points are really what I've been going over and over in my head, but didn't post. It's very spot-on, because Lancer was already that dog that I had planned as a go-everywhere sport dog, but his fear issues that developed as a teen now keep him limited as "that dog" that you mentioned, and I have already been waiting for the "next dog" to be that confident and non-aggressive sport dog, and it is what I filled out in my applications for rescue. Your analysis of what I've been looking for as my next dog is also spot-on. And I really don't know if I'm making the right decision to keep Signal or not, because it's very possible that she (as a high-energy strong herding drive border collie on top of aggression) just can never adapt properly to an apartment setting. I am aware and do also believe that some dogs simply are not able to adapt to an apartment setting. And the choice is really on me, since I just adopted her and have the option of returning her to the rescue to find a better home. I really don't know what the right decision is at this point.

I seem to really have a knack for bringing in dogs with intense aggression issues, whatever the base reason is for the aggression.
 
BostonBanker said:
I do agree. I absolutely think it is commendable to be dedicated to working with her and trying to help her with the issue, and I know you've had experience with fear issues so you at least have a bit of an idea what you are getting into, which some people wouldn't. I'm not trying to cast doubt on your abilities to handle the situation, because you seem quite knowledgeable and you are being smart by acting quickly.

But remember to be fair to both yourself and to her with all this. It sounds very much like you want a fun, go everywhere, do-things-with, sport dog. Are you okay with that being maybe several years down the line, when you've done all this work and she's trustworthy in all situations? Are you okay with that maybe being something that waits for the next dog, if she isn't ever comfortable with that sort of a lifestyle? With altering the way you live your life to keep both her and your neighbors safe?

Maybe it's unfair to the situation that I see it differently than if someone came on with a dog they had owned for 2 years, and since moving into this new apartment they were seeing these behaviors. I'd completely advocate for trying everything to work with the dog. But with a new rescue, who was apparently showing no aggression in a very different situation...it is different to me.

If she were to stay, I think you've gotten great advice. And I absolutely wish you the best of luck.
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All of this 100%.

Really think about what you want in a dog, what are deal breakers, etc. Stay realistic in that she may be able to overcome these behaviours, but she may also not...are you okay with having an aggressive dog for the next however many years?
 
Locke said:
All of this 100%.

Really think about what you want in a dog, what are deal breakers, etc. Stay realistic in that she may be able to overcome these behaviours, but she may also not...are you okay with having an aggressive dog for the next however many years?
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I've thought through this exactly and what bostonbanker said... I like to think that I'm a very tenacious person in training dogs, but I don't know if I want another Lancer at 7 months old all over again in an even more volatile situation (in an apartment) with EVEN more extreme aggression. My experience with Lancer taught me a LOT about dogs, behavior, and training, and it was extremely worthwhile now that we've overcome it. But I don't know if I want another one, when it's the exact opposite of what I've been looking for in my next dog. Oh my god.

cries again lmfao
 
Just breathe a bit and try to think calmly and rationally. Imo there is no harm in returning a rescue if it is just the wrong fit. Sometimes that happens and I knew getting Hank that there were deal breakers.

That said, it can take time to adjust so keep that in mind too. There was a point in the first couple weeks where I really didn't know if Hank would work out but I am glad I kept him through all that. That said, he never had any serious behavioral issues.

I don't think people should rehome at the first sign of issues but also people shouldn't just keep a dog they know won't fit and would be happier elsewhere.

I don't think you should rush the decision. Just think it through and think about what is best for you and for Signal too.
 
Laurelin said:
Just breathe a bit and try to think calmly and rationally. Imo there is no harm in returning a rescue if it is just the wrong fit. Sometimes that happens and I knew getting Hank that there were deal breakers.

That said, it can take time to adjust so keep that in mind too.

I don't think people should rehome at the first sign of issues but also people shouldn't just keep a dog they know won't fit and would be happier elsewhere.

I don't think you should rush the decision. Just think it through and think about what is best for you and for Signal too.
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I 100% agree with all of this.

I am sorry that you are having to deal with this, and I wish you the best of luck whichever way you decide. I know for me, personally, I would not be comfortable keeping a dog with certain behavioural issues. Especially if I had just gotten the dog and was looking for something very specific. I think everyone has their deal breakers and what they are and are not willing to live with. I definitely commend you if you are willing to work through these issues, but would understand if you chose not to as well. She sounds like a fantastic dog in every other way.
 
So Wilson's favorite toy currently is a big stuffed soccer ball I got for three dollars at petco and right now he's got ants in his pants and will not settle down so I taught him to boop the soccer ball back to me with his nose when I kick/throw it towards him and it might be the dumbest but cutest trick I've taught him

*end random dumb rant*
 
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