socialization/unique situation

[antipunt1]

hi helpful users of chazhound:

it's been awhile since my puppy's diarrhea mishap. I am happy to report she is much more healthy, and has grown much confidence around the house since her shy entrance a couple weeks ago.

It seems, however, that new problems pop up as old ones die:

I am in a complicated dilemma. Long story short is that I suspect our puppy seems to be hurt by the fact that we had her since 6 weeks (AKA she should've had those two extra weeks socializing with her littermates). For one thing: she has horrendous doggie social skills.

She is about to become 9 weeks old. I found it to be of paramount importance to teach her two things: a) not to bite flesh hard and b) how to socialize with other dogs

Hope is dwindling for both. Two times I brought dogs of similar breed over to her. She plays so wildly and nip-ly that the other dogs just growl at her or ignore her. Just today another dog (my aunt's) came over for a play session. My puppy chased her around the yard for quite a while; I was the only one who knew the truth---> they weren't playing, it was just that my puppy was being a nuisance. In the end we saw the truth when my aunt's dog growled and nipped my puppy in defense.

To make matters more complicated, in 25 days I have to fly to nor-cal to visit my grandparents with my folks. In this period we are planning to let my aunt dog-sit my puppy for 3-4 days. And I mean WITH THAT SAME DOG that nipped her. Of course, it wasn't that dog's fault. It's just that Wanta [my dog] has really bad social skills.

It shows when she plays with us as well. She plays with us the same way. very nip-py and hyper. I tried all the "yelp" training and turning the back and everything; she just doesn't seem to understand hyper play isn't tolerable [and painful nipping]. At times like this we usually ignore her [telling her we won't play till you calm down], but resulting in less effectiveness than I hoped.

so my dilemma is summed down to these things: a) isn't it true the socializing window is opening [and closing later] because she is now 9 weeks, and therefore I need to think of some sort of emergency action? At this rate all the dogs will just snarl at her forever, or she'll learn other dogs are bad (since the window closes around 12-15 weeks).

b) what do I do about my trip? Is leaving my dog with my aunt and her dog a horrendous idea? I feel in my gut incredibly insecure in doing this move that my parents recommended. And what should I do instead if my gut instinct is correct? I plan to do some UBER-socializing in the next 25 days, but my puppy doesn't seem to 'get it'; and I don't exactly have puppies laying around in order to experiment. The only thing I can do is go to the Petco seminars once a week.

And speaking of which today I went to the seminar and my puppy is so shy that she hides in my lap to avoid other dogs (I guess its cause Petco has too much commotion). This one 6 year old girl wanted to pet her (so she counted as a 'child') and Wanta avoided her with all her strength. In other words: the socialization process is going poorly to both new dogs and children. Though.. she loves adults though. And yes, in the safety of our home, she 'socializes' with other dogs present by driving them crazy until they growl at her.

Sorry for the in-succinct writing style, but I wanted to convey my point fully. Help would be appreciated to help socialize this hyper but cute puppy. I am completely clueless about my next move regarding this dilemma

THANKS :hail:


*note: it may be important to note the two dogs she chased and ignored her were 1-2 years older than she; regardless of the age factor, the general interaction between my pup and my aunt's dog makes me insecure to leave her alone with him for 3-4 days. My worrying, however, may be unfounded if said so by experienced forumers. Who knows, maybe this experience might even teach her GOOD socializing skills?.. that is if she isn't killed!

 

[ihartgonzo]

Hrmmm...

you're right that puppies being taken away at 6 weeks is detrimental to their well-being. Definitely. She would have learned plenty of bite inhibition from Mom and littermates in those critical few weeks that she should have stayed with them.

All hope is certaintly NOT lost, though! Your pup is 9 weeks old. You can get in a lot of good socialization and a lot of good bite inhibition in the next couple of months, and even beyond that. Look for puppy play groups in the area. There are lots, everywhere. Most any Obedience schools hold them, and playing with other puppies is very important. It's also important for her to spend plenty of time with well-adjusted, socialized adult dogs. Ask family and friends with friendly dogs to come over, go over to their houses, meet up for playdates, etc, etc. Meet as many friendly dogs (and people) as possible, and try to keep the experiences positive for both dogs. When she bites you, you need to find a sound that does startle her, if your yelp isn't effective. Fozzie never minded my yelps, but when I said "owww!" in a growly voice, he immediately got the message. Make sure that every time you mark the bite with a yelp/growl/scary noise, you grab an appropriate tug toy or chewy toy and praise her while playing with it.

What do you mean by your Aunt's dog "nipped" her? Was blood drawn? How did your puppy react? Did she recover quickly? Was the "nip" simply a brief snap? Was there growling, snarling, etc before hand? If so, this is normal. It's just an adult dog telling the puppy to chill the FORK out. Assuming the adult dog is socialized and doesn't have a history of DA or biting, I would say he acted perfectly fine. Some adult dogs will let a puppy do anything they please (Fozzie is like this), and some won't let a puppy get away with ANY rude behavior (Gonzo is like this, on the other hand). I actually prefer the latter. It does hurt you, and it does make you want to coddle your puppy, when she gets put in her place by an annoyed adult dog - but the adult dog is simply communicating to the puppy what's not ok and what is ok. Something that even you have trouble communicating. This is why socialization with other dogs is REALLY important in teaching a puppy bite inhibition and self control.

I honestly think that some time spent with your Aunt's dog would be beneficial to her. As long as your Aunt seperates them when she cannot supervise, gives them plenty of individual attention, and does supervise their play time diligently, it should be a good learning experience for your pup.

 

[Domestika]

I agree with everything said in the comment above mine.

I just wanted to add my own personal experience. My puppy (now 4 months) had both of these..."behavioural" issues. She bit me and everyone else quite hard with NO reaction to anything I did to curb the behaviour. Yelping, telling her not to, time outs, stopping playing with her, etc, etc. None of these things worked for weeks and weeks.

I added a lot of information to the "How to STOP puppy biting" sticky in the puppy section. The information came from my private trainer and helped a lot. I think the two most important factors in her being a bit more gentle and less frequent with her biting were: one, age (she just needed to mature...in her case a fair bit) and two, consistency. One or two days of consistent timeouts (once she reached the age where her brain would put it together) really had an effect on her biting. And let me tell you, she was HORRIBLE with her biting (several trainers told me that she was biting MUCH more frequently and MUCH harder than she should have been for her age and everything I had tried), so don't fret! Things will change! Read my info in the sticky!

Second, Nova got really out of control with other dogs when she was a bit younger. Once we finished our six weeks of puppy class we didn't interact with too many dogs...aside from those that we'd meet on walks and the EXACT same thing happened as is happening with your pup. She'd be overly rambunctious, wouldn't pick up on their cues and eventually (or quickly!) get snapped at or pinned. For quite a while there, every single dog she met she pissed off right off the bat and she was constantly being bitten by other dogs because she just didn't listen to what they were trying to say!

On the advice of our private trainer I started taking her to a small group who meets every morning with their well behaved adult dogs. The important part is that this is a group of people who are like-minded and are attentive and vigilant about their dog's behaviour. If dogs are getting out of hand in play, they step in. If one dog is being too rambunctious or playing inappropriately with another (ie. getting aggressive with play, biting constantly, basically not playing fair) they give an on-leash time out, etc.

Playing with these adult dogs is giving Nova a MUCH better idea of how to ready doggy behaviour. She STILL jumps all over other dogs' heads when she can. But I've also seen her demonstrate some real restraint with dogs that are clearly telling her "Watch it, little dog". I think your puppy just needs to learn how to play. Other dogs growling or snapping at your dog is acceptable dog behaviour and something I think your puppy needs.

Keep in mind that puppies have a "license" for more exhuberant and inappropriate behaviour with adult dogs...in the same way we let babies pull our hair and scream. So when an adult dog is taking the discipline to a serious level (nipping, growling) you know your pup is doing something that NEEDS to be corrected by another dog. So my advice (and do what is comfortable for you) is to let other dogs teach your dog these lessons, but be very close by, watch very closely, step in if it gets out of hand.

I allow adult dogs to growl and snap at her because she needs to learn. When she's out of the puppy phase and doesn't have that license to misbehave anymore the correction from another dog may be MUCH more harsh so I'd prefer she'd learn now to curb those behaviours.

Like I said, Nova had both of these problems...a LOT! And she's improved a lot as she's matured. And of course when in doubt, get professional help.

 

[antipunt1]

thank you once again for critical-style helpful information.

I had no idea this was OK. Your intuitions were correct, my aunt's dog didn't even really seem to bite. It was a sharp ferocious growl/nip and my puppy recovered very quickly. I had no idea that this may be beneficial for her. As you may understand, I was TERRIFIED. I was afraid my little puppy would annoy the dog into attacking her! (and still am a little, but less so than previous).

You're right, we don't have the hang of her when she's in 'play mode'. It's strange b/c when she's in resting/cuddle mode she's great and applies bite inhibition. When in play mode, NO ONE wants to play with her. No human; and now we can see, no dog either.

And thx for the note on the consistency and age. So I guess I just have to keep at it. Like children, I guess this kinda thing takes lots of time and reinforcement. And thx for the 'acceptable behavior' recommendation towards my aunt's dog as previously posted. It scares me, but I think I'm getting the idea that my annoying-cute pallie needs to learn some MANNERS. And maybe staying with my aunt will even help her a bit.

"When she's out of the puppy phase and doesn't have that license to misbehave anymore the correction from another dog may be MUCH more harsh so I'd prefer she'd learn now to curb those behaviours." I like that one, it sums up something to curb my parental-weenieness, no pun intended. Ah so my Wanta WAS being a little annoying fart =P ...

Also you make it sound like adult dogs are more 'lenient' towards puppies? Is this true? I was under the impression that harsh Darwinian evolution would affect the dogs into killing unrelated offspring without hesitation if they got too far. Or are they more like humans, in that they give more rope towards young/annoying kids cause they are more mature and know they are 'teachers'? This MIGHT be possible, because my cousin told me that her mom's dog [my aunt] Ginger is more patient with 'smaller dogs' than her. Wanta is definitely tons tinier, maybe 1/3 her size

thx for the help again, I'll stay connected here for anything that may not be covered yet

 

[Romy]

Also you make it sound like adult dogs are more 'lenient' towards puppies? Is this true? I was under the impression that harsh Darwinian evolution would affect the dogs into killing unrelated offspring without hesitation if they got too far. Or are they more like humans, in that they give more rope towards young/annoying kids cause they are more mature and know they are 'teachers'? This MIGHT be possible, because my cousin told me that her mom's dog [my aunt] Ginger is more patient with 'smaller dogs' than her. Wanta is definitely tons tinier, maybe 1/3 her size

They are more lenient, and unless they have some kind of temperament flaw or horribly misjudge their own strength it would be unusual for a dog to kill a young puppy like that. Remember they are pack animals, and raising young is the responsibility of every adult in the pack. Do make sure your aunt is going to keep them separated if she isn't there to supervise though. It's not fair for her dog to have to put up with your crazy puppy all the time, she will need breaks! And you aunt will want to be there in case she does need to give the pup a little time out, or if things get rough.

If it puts you at ease, just know that her mother would be correcting her exactly like your aunts dog, if not much harsher! Adults and other puppies correcting them for too rough play and obnoxious behavior is how they learn bite inhibition from their littermates and family to begin with. Strider plays wonderfully with puppies, but when they get too bitey he really comes down on them with a lot of rumbling and huge teeth flashing. He doesn't touch them at all but it looks like they are going to be eaten! It scared me to death the first time I saw him do it. 5 seconds later he was back in play mode and they went back to playing chase. That pup never got bitey with him again, and they spend a lot of time together. He never does it with grown dogs, just to tell pups they are getting out of hand and to cool it.

And remember that Darwinian evolution is called the "Theory of Evolution" for a reason. While there is a lot of evidence supporting it, there are holes and it doesn't explain everything. It's still a theory.

 

[antipunt1]

For a continuation, please read my part 2 thread. Thank you!