socialization/unique situation PART 2

[antipunt1]

This is a continuation of my socialization/unique situation thread, because the forum closes the 'edit' option after a couple of hours

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I am at an all time low. I am scared/sad/confused about my current situation.

As readers of my last thread will know, I have a unique situation with my puppy and her socialization. Long story short is we have to put her in a safe house for 4 days while the family is at Nor-Cal. Second part of the story is Wanta is having a hard time socializing due to her being with us since week 6.

And TODAY: I went to my aunt's house. Long story short is that forumers and I decided that it would be a good idea to let my puppy get beat up a little for being obnoxious. However, today proved to be A GRAVE ERROR. I feel like a HORRIBLE PARENT to my puppy and am EXTREMELY agitated for what came about

When I went to my aunt's, I found out a few interesting 'facts'. For one, Ginger (the adult dog that was growling at my puppy the other night for being over excited) BITES HUMANS. In fact, the family doesn't correct it. THEY ENCOURAGE IT IN A WAY! I found it INSANE but kept my mouth shut for social reasons. They played tug with it and let it tear stuffed animals to shreds. They do a little 'slap the dog in the face playfully' kind of game, almost kind of like stimulating its aggressive behavior. Also, the dog bites REGULARLY. In addition to biting the father of the house, it bite MY FATHER for touching her chew toy. It was also to have said to growl if you get close to her bone, and their whole family finds it 'oh so cute'

I found this all crazy, and went insane when I saw her growling at my puppy. This time around, Wanta wasn't acting crazy at all, BUT WAS STILL BEING GROWLED AT. It usually happened when she was near Ginger's chew toys or a little too close to Ginger herself. There was one time Wanta was yelled at for chewing around her kibble. But she didn't know any better, whatever happened to parent dogs giving little puppies some leiweigh? By the end of the day [3 hostile growl/nips] Wanta, who was ALREADY easily scared of new things due to personality, was hiding in the corner and didn't look like she was having fun at all. The family, completely oblivious to all of this, laughed saying "oh look how much fun they are having. its so cute". I wasn't amused, and fumed at my parents the whole way back home.

So particularly to the two comments posted in my other thread, I assume your judgments are now drastically shifted about socializing with Ginger, who is clearly now a devil-dog. It wasn't encouraging when I asked my aunt nervously about her dog's details. Yup, they've had her since she was TWO WEEKS OLD. Wanta was with us since six weeks, and I found that to be frightening already. I can only imagine Ginger's opinion of 'other dogs'. They also said she never socialized during her puppy window [8-16 weeks]

To new viewers, I could use some pep-help, because I'm really confused of what to do. The nipping/yelping tactics also don't seem to be effective tonight either for bite inhibition training, so I'm afraid that Wanta is learning [partially from Ginger's experience tonight] that being violent is the way to go or something equally nuts. In addition, now I have no clue how to properly socialize Wanta. My aunt's family is completely oblivious to the mistakes they are making: they are forming IMO an aggressive, spoiled and very attention seeking dog. Ginger would growl at Wanta for playing with her family. It was horrible (she's a chihuahua/beagle mix); NOT TOO FAR OFF FROM WANTA

advice would be great. I realize I'm kind of a mess right now, and honestly its because I am. I feel like a horrible parent with no idea what to do next. I feel Wanta doesn't have good role models around and I'm especially afraid to let her play with other dogs now, after being with Ginger. I'm afraid she might've been a little scarred as well.

Also I don't know what to do for Thanksgiving. I'm thinking of letting her stay with another friend that doesn't have a dog. Extreme circumstances mean I stay with Wanta completely, but something tells me this is attachment-disorder behavior, of which I was told to avoid by a doggie-trainer

Sorry for the mess, help would be great

PS: I'm taking it now that no one would support me leaving Wanta with Ginger for 4 days in my Aunt's house now, unless maybe I'm missing something?...Am I over-protective? Like.. do all dogs growl when other puppies are near their chew toys or playing with their masters? I swear that Wanta was acting rather kindly today, and wasn't the least bit obnoxious. I think she learned it pretty quickly. But Ginger IMO just doesn't seem to like other dogs period, and contains the most hostile-sides of a chihuahua

PSS: this is extra frightening for me because I have been advised by previous posts that snarling/nipping from adult dogs was a good thing; because this taught puppies appropriate behavior. But how much is TOO much? How do you tell a normal dog to a hostile one?! Given my previous guidelines, its almost impossible to tell!

 

[ihartgonzo]

Oh man. That doesn't sound like a good situation at all. Have you checked around with any private petsitters? An in-home, licensed/ensured pet-sitter would be ideal, and I'm sure many will take young puppies. Maybe you could even find one with well-adjusted, social dogs of their own?

Chances are... if you're really that uncomfortable with the situation, you shouldn't trust your puppy in it. Simply the fact that your Aunt encourages Ginger to bite people is a baddd sign, and I would not trust her to supervise Ginger with your puppy.

It's hard to tell you what, exactly, is inappropriate behavior between an adult dog and a puppy. It helps to know the adult dog well. For instance, I KNOW Gonzo better than anyone in the world... and I KNOW his behavior with other dogs and puppies is incredibly strict, yet I KNOW that he will inflict absolutely no harm, even when he's threatened or injured by them. He is incredibly growly and sensitive with puppies. If a puppy pounces on him unexpectedly or pricks him with a tooth, he will release an ear-piercing yelp - literally, ear-piercing! He will growl if puppy is running around, like a puppy. He will growl if puppy is pestering him. He will growl if puppy is invading his space at all. But, he will not growl if puppy is resting, or mind their own business, or whatnot. And the moment the puppy realizes that being polite and exercising self control equals no growling, Gonzo and the puppy will play like there's no tomorrow! It is hard to categorize dogs, because they are SO individual, and have such a complex and often subtle way of communicating.

If Ginger has EVER bitten another dog, I would not trust her with Wanta. If Ginger is simply growling when Wanta is in her "space bubble", and not compulsively pinning/snapping/etc, I would continue to have short, positive play sessions with the two. If you feel either dog is getting overwhelmed, seperate them. Don't coddle Wanta. Growling is ok... it's simply a vocalization, a warning. Some dogs growl much more than others, like Gonzo, and I definitely prefer a growly dog to a silent dog who snaps unexpectedly. Supervise them diligently, don't allow Wanta to pester Ginger, and watch their body language. (this is a good overview of canine body language) I would suggest allowing them to interact, while supervised, but unless things change drastically it doesn't sound like your Aunt is the ideal person to be puppy-sitting for you.

Where in Norcal are you going? I'm in Norcal... she can come over and get "the puppy treatment" from Gonzo if you'd like. haha, yes, I love puppy-sitting.

 

[Suzzie]

I would not leave the puppy with your aunt.

Why are you freaking out about puppy socialization because of the dog's age? I got Popper at 6 weeks (didn't have a choice in the matter) and he absolutely ADORES other dogs and people. Get the pup into a puppy class right NOW so it can socialize with the other dogs. I also did doggy daycare once a week (some won't take dogs until they're older) with a really good daycare that knew what they were doing. Encourage people that want to see your dog to pet all over it, give it treats, etc.

 

[corgipower]

PSS: this is extra frightening for me because I have been advised by previous posts that snarling/nipping from adult dogs was a good thing; because this taught puppies appropriate behavior. But how much is TOO much? How do you tell a normal dog to a hostile one?! Given my previous guidelines, its almost impossible to tell!

I have four dogs. Out of those four dogs, I would only trust one of them with a puppy. She's the only one that has acceptable judgement and self-control around pups. She tolerates a lot, and when they do get rank, she just quietly places her chin on top of them.

I would definitely keep Ginger and Wanta separated. Start finding places where Ginger can play with puppies close to her age, get lots of people to pet her, build up positive associations with things.

To new viewers, I could use some pep-help, because I'm really confused of what to do. The nipping/yelping tactics also don't seem to be effective tonight either for bite inhibition training, so I'm afraid that Wanta is learning [partially from Ginger's experience tonight] that being violent is the way to go or something equally nuts.

Keep in mind that if you're upset or if there's agitation in the household, that could be adding to her nipping. She could be nipping because of stress, she could be nipping because she's bored, she could be nipping because she doesn't know not to. She could be exhausted after everything with Ginger. Exhausted puppies get just as cranky as tired babies.

Make sure she has sufficient outlets for her energy level, do some basic obedience so her brain has things to think about, give her toys so she has things that she is allowed to bite, and if she gets into an agitated state of nipping, put her away in a crate or a pen. And remember that it takes time and consistency.

 

[Romy]

Oh man. I wouldn't leave her with your aunt in light of this new information.

Aside from the fact that they encourage their dog to misbehave and that puts your puppy at risk, I wouldn't want the humans in that household to be teaching/encouraging the same behaviors in Wanta. That's just..wow.

 

[antipunt1]

~*edit-- thx: for the help everyone. I'll note the advice that it seems non-hostile dogs ONLY growl when puppies are doing something really out of order like jumping at you or nipping you. I'll also note that its pretty solid to not leave my puppy with my Aunt's dog. I'll also note that growling may be OK, but I'll need some more on this so I feel more secure with other dogs. I'm not really sure about leaving Wanta to 'play' with Ginger anymore, cause the two never really seem to "play"..., unless I'm missing something; I'll also note that Wanta may have been extra nippy yesterday due to added stress and agitation release. So was my puppy picking up on the fact that I was stressed out myself?
~

I'm thinking about starting some basic obedience, but I'm not sure where to start. Not being able to join a class doesn't help, is there any independent ways/sources to do this?

And speaking of not being able to join classes, this is the added stress for proper socialization. Because of lack of knowing/being able to meet up with dogs (not to mention Wanta can't go to a dog park yet b/c of disease), I'm kinda like a sitting duck wondering where to take her to meet a calm/nice adult dog. [my parents don't want to fork a hundred bucks for basic classes, so I'm on my own with any literature I can find]

And on that topic @ihartgonzo, thx for the advice but its that concept that still confuses me. For instance, Ginger didn't go all rabid on Wanta. It's just that Wanta looked absolutely terrified of Ginger AKA I can sense my puppy's emotions. Wanta was basically avoiding Ginger at all costs by the end of the night. I was imagining in my unsupervised future Wanta being scared away from eating or playing with her OWN toys. Basically Ginger seemed like a bully.

But yes Ginger never really seemed to attack Wanta (at least not yet), but she would constantly eye her. Also it depends on your definition of 'attack', cause although she never injured Wanta, she didn't merely 'growl'. She'd do this violent scary-as-heck roar in my puppy's face and Wanta was yelp out of fear or pain, I didn't know which. There was like a 0% chance of Ginger ever getting along with Wanta b/c she was VERY territorial. However, she never per-se acted against your description of your known dog with puppies as in 'being strict'. Do you kinda see why I'm saying the fine-line between strict and hostile is confusing?

For example what I DID know was that Wanta was terrified. I also knew Ginger wasn't chasing Wanta around, but the thing is Wanta was scared to death, not sure where to go or what she could eat or chew. Ginger also, and I quote from my Cousin, "doesn't like people in her face". The fact that Ginger was never socialized and was received at 2 weeks were HINTS at me that this dog was anti-social, but you see, I had to use a lot of context clues in addition to her behavior to place my verdict. I would hope that in the future, I could just recognize these verdicts based off behavioral patterns alone

How exactly do I tell IF a dog is going too far with my puppy? Are there any tips for basic obedience independent? Or socializing independent? Or is this just impossible and I should annoy my parents to fork up some cash for class as a last resort

-sorry guys, I'm just really worried I'm failing at puppy-parent. I need to find a good doggie role model somewhere and maybe start some independent puppy obedience. Long story short is I'm confused and appreciate these/could use some rays of light

thx again

 

[corgipower]

For now, I wouldn't allow Ginger and Wanta any interaction. You've got two dogs with poor social skills, one is showing aggression, the other is terrified and overwhelmed.

I do think you should "annoy your parents to fork up some cash for class". Maybe you can also annoy your aunt to do some training with Ginger?

The chance she would get to be around other puppies would be very valuable. In the meantime, take her to non-doggie places and get her socialization around people and the rest of the world and when she's had enough vaccines (check with your vet -- mine was fine with it after the second puppy shot) start taking her places where there are dogs.

Wanta was scared to death, not sure where to go or what she could eat or chew.

That's a good place for you to step in and give the dog something positive or remove her form the scene. Let the dog know she can count on you to protect her.

How exactly do I tell IF a dog is going too far with my puppy?

I think Wanta is doing a good job of telling you. Watch your dog, watch her reactions, introduce new things and new dogs gradually and positively. Socializing with other dogs doesn't have to mean playing with them.

Here's a good website for some training help ~
http://www.clickerlessons.com/index.htm

 

[antipunt1]

Thank you very much for all your guys help

I finally have some positive news; I've discovered some pretty neat dog parks in my area, and will take Wanta there as soon as she gets her full set of shots (16 weeks). Before then, however, I'm going to have to pull some strings. There's another dog I know, Dukie, and he's great. However, I'm not sure if he likes other dogs much, but he definitely doesn't go commando like Ginger.

In addition playtime is a lot more controlled now. It's INSANE, but I swear that doggies LIKE obedience training. Sit-training with normal kibble seems to be a lot of fun for Wanta, and best of all, it keeps her at bay when she's going nutso-crazy

 

[corgipower]

I swear that doggies LIKE obedience training.

Yes, they really do.

Keep us posted!

 

[lizzybeth727]

^^^^Agreed! Dogs SHOULD love training, it should not be "work" but a fun game!

If Dukie does not like other dogs, it's probably not a good idea to introduce your dog to him! The point of socialization is not to just give her as many experiences as possible, but to give her as many POSITIVE experiences as possible. So every dog she meets NEEDS to be very friendly and make it an enjoyable experience for her.

 

[antipunt1]

Thx for the input!

I have a little question though: it seems that if you don't know any neighbors with little puppies or friendly dogs you're out of luck? The only thing I can think of in this case [my case] is obedience classes, since even dog parks are out of the question until the window closes! [16 weeks ish]

Is obedience class the only way to socialize my pup?! [aka mom/dad fork over the cash, we're outta options?]. Or maybe there's something I'm not seeing here, like AKA 16 weeks its still not too late, or something along those lines

 

[Romy]

It's never too late. It's ideal to get it done during the up to 16 weeks window, but the world isn't lost if you don't make it.

What I did was go visit the dog park and stand outside the fence with puppy Strider on leash. I did this at 6 am, when there was only about 5 people there. I observed their dogs, and discovered that the people who go during really low traffic times like 6 am are generally pretty responsible, have well behaved dogs, and don't want to deal with the wackos and their uncontrolled beasts. Generally that is.

Anyway I talked to them over the fence, and one of them whose dog liked puppies suggested we let them play in the small dog area since it was empty. I made friends with a handful of people there that way, and we made playdates for our dogs away from the dog park. Strider's two best buddies were a schnauzer, and a little blue pit bull.

If that doesn't work for you, you could try posting fliers at pet stores and grooming shops, that you want to get a puppy play group together for vaccinated puppies. You could meet somewhere public or find someone with a fenced yard to host it.

ETA: You might also contact some trainers in the area and see if they would let you put up fliers for a puppy play group in their training place, or boarding kennels too. Anywhere you think someone with a puppy that cares about their dog might see it.

 

[antipunt1]

thx for the advice; I'll either try your advice or give-in and enroll in some sort of Pet-smart program or something =P

 

[lizzybeth727]

thx for the advice; I'll either try your advice or give-in and enroll in some sort of Pet-smart program or something =P

IMO, you should do BOTH! Keep in mind that paying $100 for a class is NOT MUCH when you consider that what you learn can be used for the rest of your dog's life - in small breeds, that could easily be 10-15 years. Is less than $10 per YEAR worth having a better behaved dog??

That said, there are good trainers and bad trainers everywhere. Here's a good article from www.apdt.com about how to choose a trainer:

Training your dog should be fun! A skilled and professional dog trainer employs humane training methods which are not harmful to the dog and/or handler

A competent instructor will allow and encourage you to observe a class prior to making the decision to enroll. In a well-run class, dogs and people will be enjoying themselves and having a successful learning experience. Look for an instructor who is approachable and who encourages participants to have a good time. If space permits, an instructor should welcome and encourage all family members and others who interact with the dog to attend class.

A skilled class instructor will:

Provide a clear explanation of each lesson.
Demonstrate the behavior(s) that students will be teaching to their dogs.
Provide clear instructions and written handouts on how to teach the behavior(s).
Give students ample time in class to begin practicing the day's lesson.
Assist students individually with proper implementation of techniques.
A skilled and professional trainer will encourage dialogue and be courteous to both canine and human clients alike.

A skilled and professional dog trainer employs humane training methods which are not harmful to the dog and/or handler...
You want to be comfortable with the training tools and methods used by the instructor. A skilled and professional dog trainer employs humane training methods which are not harmful to the dog and/or handler, and avoids the practices of hanging, beating, kicking, shocking, and all similar procedures or training devices that could cause the dog great pain, distress, or that have imminent potential for physical harm. You have the absolute right to stop any trainer or other animal care professional who, in your opinion, is causing your dog undue harm or distress.

A conscientious trainer will stay informed about innovations in dog training and behavior tools and techniques. Check to see if the instructor is a member of any educational organizations such as the APDT, and whether s/he pursues ongoing educational opportunities.

A good instructor will take care to protect your dog's health in a group setting. Ask if dogs and puppies are required to be vaccinated prior to class and, if so, which vaccines are required. Make sure you and your veterinarian are comfortable with the vaccination requirements.

Current clients are a valuable source of information for you. Attending a group class gives you the opportunity to ask clients how they feel about their experience - if they are enjoying the class and feel that their training needs and goals are being met.

Because of variables in dog breeding and temperament and owner commitment and experience, a trainer cannot and should not guarantee the results of his/her training. However, an instructor can and should be willing to ensure client satisfaction with his/her professional services.