R
People have a choice. Not to buy from people who follow the breed standard and dock traditionally docked breeds. Anyone calling me for an undocked puppy would be referred on to others who do not dock. There would be zero consideration on my part as to not docking any puppy in my whelping box.
As far as leaving dogs intact, there is a big medical reason for not sexually neutering dogs at an early age in Rottweilers. In this breed early S/N is proven to contribute to Osteosarcoma and other cancers. The longer a dog is exposed to the normal sexual hormones the less the increase in risk becomes.
I do not allow any dog I have bred to be altered before age 2 for the above reason.
As far as leaving dogs intact, there is a big medical reason for not sexually neutering dogs at an early age in Rottweilers. In this breed early S/N is proven to contribute to Osteosarcoma and other cancers. The longer a dog is exposed to the normal sexual hormones the less the increase in risk becomes.
I do not allow any dog I have bred to be altered before age 2 for the above reason.
I'm not really a Pem person, but typically, if you want an undocked Pem puppy, you have three options.
First is to choose a Cardi instead. The breeds have very different personalities, but similar exercise and care needs- a lot of people like both, and people who haven't fallen exclusively in love with one or the other switch back and forth pretty easily.
Second is to get on the waiting lists with rescue. A significant portion of people who are very serious about the cruelty of docking prefer rescues to breeders, anyway. But rescue gets undocked dogs with some regularity.
Thirdly is to import a dog. Expensive, sure, but not at all undoable, especially since there are a number of Finnish and Swedish breeders who send dogs to the US fairly regularly.
Lastly is to follow the chain of referrals. There ARE a few reputable breeders who have left pups undocked, but in almost every case, it's been unusual- either they were planning to export a dog and would make their best guess as to show quality pups who would be the one (it's extremely unusual to export pets.) or they had a dog with a DQ fault (in this case, body white - 'whitelies') that would obviously be PQ no matter what. And then you wait.
First is to choose a Cardi instead. The breeds have very different personalities, but similar exercise and care needs- a lot of people like both, and people who haven't fallen exclusively in love with one or the other switch back and forth pretty easily.
Second is to get on the waiting lists with rescue. A significant portion of people who are very serious about the cruelty of docking prefer rescues to breeders, anyway. But rescue gets undocked dogs with some regularity.
Thirdly is to import a dog. Expensive, sure, but not at all undoable, especially since there are a number of Finnish and Swedish breeders who send dogs to the US fairly regularly.
Lastly is to follow the chain of referrals.
There ARE a few reputable breeders who have left pups undocked, but in almost every case, it's been unusual- either they were planning to export a dog and would make their best guess as to show quality pups who would be the one (it's extremely unusual to export pets.) or they had a dog with a DQ fault (in this case, body white - 'whitelies') that would obviously be PQ no matter what. And then you wait. 
I'm not really a Pem person, but typically, if you want an undocked Pem puppy, you have three options.
First is to choose a Cardi instead. The breeds have very different personalities, but similar exercise and care needs- a lot of people like both, and people who haven't fallen exclusively in love with one or the other switch back and forth pretty easily.
First is to choose a Cardi instead. The breeds have very different personalities, but similar exercise and care needs- a lot of people like both, and people who haven't fallen exclusively in love with one or the other switch back and forth pretty easily.
Dizzy;1329742
Seems that choice is taken away from those people?[/QUOTE said:
Yep, this is why I'm glad that the breeds that I'll likely have in the foreseeable future keep their parts per the standard. I just tend to prefer it that way. I can't help myself, I just love tails and flappity ears......
YUp and i spent 11 pages of a thread i would rather not read looking for it. I guess if you want a dog with ears and a tail you best choose a dog with ears and a tail. THat is what i do. IF your going to breed and compete then you will have to comply to the norm. I only wish i lived in a country where it is banned. BUt that is my preference. I don't like seeing it. THere are two sides and i don't think they will ever agree.
I have seen a little dog that never wandered anywhere until her third heat and in desperation she did what she never did before and was hit and died. Those harmones are strong when at their full saturation. I don't see the spay neuter has one thing to do with the crop dock. THe last one doesn't end up with overpopulation. IT is like comparing apples to oranges. They are two different subjects. IMO.
I have seen a little dog that never wandered anywhere until her third heat and in desperation she did what she never did before and was hit and died. Those harmones are strong when at their full saturation. I don't see the spay neuter has one thing to do with the crop dock. THe last one doesn't end up with overpopulation. IT is like comparing apples to oranges. They are two different subjects. IMO.
Nope. IMHO, S/N and crop/dock is comparing apples to oranges. I realize that it is a popular "gotcha" argument, but meh, doesn't fly with me. Mind you, I don't think that c/d should be illegal or that s/n should be mandatory, but you can talk until you're purple and you will never convince me that they are equal.....
Incidentally, I'd be careful when insisting that spay/neuter be outlawed if crop/dock is no longer allowed. You would likely lose a lot of supporters that way, both in the dog world and the general public.
Incidentally, I'd be careful when insisting that spay/neuter be outlawed if crop/dock is no longer allowed. You would likely lose a lot of supporters that way, both in the dog world and the general public.
But wait! Why was the dog loose to go wandering off? How do you know the dog wandered due to being in heat? I have known dogs to start wandering off at maturity (farm types that have been allowed to roam) even when they are fixed.
Once again only circumstantial evidence. If the dog was fixed and wandered away what would that prove? Only that the owners didn't keep track of their dog. But as soon as that dog is intact.. the fault is the intactness.
Once again only circumstantial evidence. If the dog was fixed and wandered away what would that prove? Only that the owners didn't keep track of their dog. But as soon as that dog is intact.. the fault is the intactness.
It isn't the being in heat that had her wandering off. It was the lack of leash, fence, training that had her wandering off.
I've owned intact females. I've had them come into season. They haven't wandered off. I've even had intact males do a down stay right next to females in heat who was also doing a down stay. They did the stays with no problems. They could easily be heeled right past each other with no break from paying attention to their handlers.
I've owned intact females. I've had them come into season. They haven't wandered off. I've even had intact males do a down stay right next to females in heat who was also doing a down stay. They did the stays with no problems. They could easily be heeled right past each other with no break from paying attention to their handlers.
Exactly. I do love how people who DON'T live with multiple intact animals say its sooo hard. And those who do say its not so bad.
SillySally. How is it not the same (or worse)? You do major surgery for no direct benefit of the dog. The dog feels pain and it affects the health of the dog. (IMO more negatively than positively) And all for the convience of the owners then not having to watch their dog so closely. Or deal with a bleeding bitch.
Or you remove a bit of skin or a bit of tail. Its NOT major surgery. I doesn't seem to have much of an impact on the dog's overall health. And for the benefit of the owners again.
Why is one so morally acceptable and the other not?
I live on a farm. I have currently 4 intact dogs. 2 male 2 female. Strangely enough its Snip (who is fixed) who is most at risk of running off. (to go hunt things) Dekka is the least likely to run off and she is intact. (now I don't chuck them out the door and ignore them, I go out with them, or they go out in the fenced yard.)
I am not Anti s/n. Sport is fixed as is Snip. When Dekka is done having dekklets she will be fixed too. But its so I don't have to deal with bleeding and a dog who comes into heat around important shows. Its not being done so she won't have puppies. She is 4 years old and hasn't had a litter yet.
SillySally. How is it not the same (or worse)? You do major surgery for no direct benefit of the dog. The dog feels pain and it affects the health of the dog. (IMO more negatively than positively) And all for the convience of the owners then not having to watch their dog so closely. Or deal with a bleeding bitch.
Or you remove a bit of skin or a bit of tail. Its NOT major surgery. I doesn't seem to have much of an impact on the dog's overall health. And for the benefit of the owners again.
Why is one so morally acceptable and the other not?
I live on a farm. I have currently 4 intact dogs. 2 male 2 female. Strangely enough its Snip (who is fixed) who is most at risk of running off. (to go hunt things) Dekka is the least likely to run off and she is intact. (now I don't chuck them out the door and ignore them, I go out with them, or they go out in the fenced yard.)
I am not Anti s/n. Sport is fixed as is Snip. When Dekka is done having dekklets she will be fixed too. But its so I don't have to deal with bleeding and a dog who comes into heat around important shows. Its not being done so she won't have puppies. She is 4 years old and hasn't had a litter yet.
I own a docked breed, but still don't think you can compare s/n to docking....
Not that I want to see anything banned, just don't think they compare imo...
ETA, I understand what you all are saying, in a way, but just don't think the point you are making would ever be taken the way you mean
Not that I want to see anything banned, just don't think they compare imo...
ETA, I understand what you all are saying, in a way, but just don't think the point you are making would ever be taken the way you mean
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