"SDs" at Airport?

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#81
Ok so tell me this, who determines who needs a service dog, and when said is trained enough right now in the states? Because fake service dogs are only one problem with the existing system, another problem is the fly by night trainers who sell poorly trained dogs as well.
 

RBark

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#82
Ok so tell me this, who determines who needs a service dog, and when said is trained enough right now in the states? Because fake service dogs are only one problem with the existing system, another problem is the fly by night trainers who sell poorly trained dogs as well.
The disabled person determines if they would be assisted by a service dog, as it should be. No one in the world has any right to tell me what tool I decide to use to aid my disability. That is as it should be. A system where someone else gets to tell me whether my disability is "deserves" a service dog is a broken system.

The second problem is a issue of education not law. Educating people on what to look for in a service dog, and how to obtain one, is something that is sorely needed. Making a certification requirement, if anything, would give them more opportunities to scam people with poorly trained service dogs. Because if they are ignorant enough to think a fly by night trainer is selling them a legitimate SD, why on earth would they be smart enough to know that they are being sold a illegitimate SD from someone who claims it's legit?

Before you say it's because they'll see the certification. 99% of the country full of people who have, and see drivers licenses could not identify a fake drivers license if they tried. Something even more rare like a certification would be even harder to identify as a fake certification.

So yes, the latter is an issue but certification is not a solution for that.
 

Paviche

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#84
But who determines when a dog is ready?
The handler.

The problem is that any other measures that could be taken to eliminate fakers, also harm legitimate SD handlers and thus shouldn't be used. We have every law in place that is needed already, but people (particularly business owners) don't know these laws and their rights.
 
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#85
Well maybe there are no real fakers, maybe they are just people who have determined that they need service dogs, and have taken it upon themselves to owner train them, and that's where they are happy with the training.
 

RBark

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#86
But who determines when a dog is ready?
The handler decides. If they are not ready, and act inappropriately in a public access area, the store is within their rights to remove the SD from the premises.

If stores started doing that, the faker problem would go away because it wouldn't be worth the hassle.

There is no reason to punish the disabled by making them jump through hoops to get a service dog just because business owners are lazy and cheap. That is backwards.
 

RBark

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#87
Well maybe there are no real fakers, maybe they are just people who have determined that they need service dogs, and have taken it upon themselves to owner train them, and that's where they are happy with the training.
That is a gross misinterpretation of the law, to the point I am wondering why you even care since you clearly do not know the law. Why do you think you know the solution to this problem if you don't even know the law that already exists?

Maybe you should do some more research before forming a opinion on the matter. This statement makes no sense whatsoever and basic understanding of the law that exists would tell you that without me needing to explain it to you.
 

Romy

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#88
Well maybe there are no real fakers, maybe they are just people who have determined that they need service dogs, and have taken it upon themselves to owner train them, and that's where they are happy with the training.
It doesn't matter what you or me or thinks about someone (or even ourselves) and whether they/we qualify to use one as a support or not. There is a legal definition for disabled and a legal definition for service dog. If things don't fit in the parameters of that definition then someone is not disabled and their dog is not a service dog.
 

RBark

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#89
I just want to point out how incredibly difficult Canada's certification process is.

http://servicedogscanada.org/certification/index.html

All you have to do is click the check box saying you trained the dog, and pay them a low price of $249.99 and they'll send you the paperwork with a vest!


If you can't tell, that was a heavy dose of sarcasm. Apparently certification hasn't stopped the fake SD's in Canada either. Otherwise this website would not exist since no one would be buying them.

http://www.registeredservicedogs.com/products-page/

The guys at this link will gladly edit their "registration" document proving the dog is a service dog for whatever country you are from. Guess the UK isn't safe from this either :rolleyes:
 

Julee

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#90
Well maybe there are no real fakers, maybe they are just people who have determined that they need service dogs, and have taken it upon themselves to owner train them, and that's where they are happy with the training.
Could you just... not? It's very clear that you don't have a clue what you're talking about. As mentioned, there legal definitions for both "service dog" and "disabled". Canada's laws are far from perfect, I know of quite a few people who fake service dogs in Canada successfully... though obviously do not associate or approve of those individuals.
 

Miakoda

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#91
I guess my son's dog won't be "real" because we arent't paying $20,000 for an already 2 or 3-year-old dog that comes with a nifty certificate if authenticity. To hell with the fact that we may not even get seizure alerts for that price.

Then again, others believe my son's future service dog will maul him in his sleep since it isn't a Lab or Golden, so.....oh well.
 

Julee

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#92
I guess my son's dog won't be "real" because we arent't paying $20,000 for an already 2 or 3-year-old dog that comes with a nifty certificate if authenticity. To hell with the fact that we may not even get seizure alerts for that price.

Then again, others believe my son's future service dog will maul him in his sleep since it isn't a Lab or Golden, so.....oh well.
How irresponsible of you. ;)
 

noludoru

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#94
Hey, just wanted to apologize for not responding to this. I was pretty busy right after I posed it.

Thanks for all the replies! I read the whole thread and found it interesting with lots of different points of view.

Were the dogs vested?

Steve is certainly not perfect. He has moments. Last week at therapy he alarm-barked at the client before me. It was embarrassing, but what can you do?

It doesn't change that he's a service dog, though. He is still trained to perform tasks that make it possible for me to function in the world. That is technically all that is required.
Yes, they were all vested. I heard each owner say "yes, he's a service dog," so I'm not making assumptions.

I get where you're coming from, and understand that dogs are dogs and they all have bad days (just like we do). But one of the dogs was completely excessive - not like you're describing with Steve.

This. ^^ Strider went to an airport when he was pretty fresh out of training (if training ever really stops, lol) when we went to pick up Sael back when she came to get Logan. He was all like, "Hey cool a big echoey terminal type place with people, sliding doors, and escalators. Kinda like lots of other places I've been." Eh.
This was my thought. Moo had no socialization as a puppy and has been places like that, and for the most part, done well. A SD I would expect to go through malls and all kinds of similar places first. Actually being on a plane is a different thing, but the terminal shouldn't phase a dog that much.

A dog flew in the overhead bin? :confused:
Nope. The dog was supposed to be in a carrier under the seat (for a service dog?) but the flight attendant was making a big stink that it would only fit in the overhead bin.

Being poorly behaved in a single situation on one bad day doesn't make a the dog not legitimate. Believing that one 5 minute window to represent everything about the dog means the expectation is the dog must be perfect 100% of the time, no exception. If that is not what she means then I take it back, but that is how it sounds to me.

I just simply believe that jumping to conclusions over a single scene is rather harsh, however poorly it may have been handled. We all have bad days. I know for a fact I've done similar things out of frustration and embarrassment that I immediately regretted my poor handling of it afterward.
First, it wasn't a 5-minute situation. I was there for over 2 hours, and watched the SD was being petted and soliciting attention from flight attendants and passers-by for maybe 5-10 minutes. That was the shortest.

The other situation I watched unfold over an hour. The dog was abysmally behaved for over half an hour, and the humans were worse. I first heard a flight attendant asking them if it was a service dog, and then the dog let out an occasional alarm bark and hid under the owner's feet when people walked by their seats. Something set it off at one point, and there was constant barking for 10-15 minutes, which shushing and yelling at the dog didn't stop. They had to grab her mouth to prevent her barking, and as soon as they let go, she started again. They were finally asked by a flight attendant to put her in a crate, and that ordeal took maybe 10 minutes. She wouldn't go in with one of them holding the crate and the other pushing the dog, so they tilted the crate vertically and and picked her up to put her in it. They got her up to the shoulders and she was scrabbling wildly and whining. One had to shove her in and the other had to hold her paws. After that, there were still muffled barks, but they put all their stuff over the crate. This doesn't sound like a SDIT or a SD to me. Not even a decently trained pet. Middie would have been better.

I completely understand that everyone and every dog has bad days, and Middie and I have had similarly embarrassing moments in the past. My harsh judgment wasn't based on a moment or one particular thing, though. In fact, I don't think my original post was that harsh - I kept all that in my head.

I've never seen a fake service dog so disruptive that it would merit additional laws making life more difficult for disabled people with a legitimate, trained service dog. Trained does not just mean task trained, it means public access trained, too.

[snip]

I feel that no service dog under any circumstances should be trained to solicit attention from the public. That's a red flag for me. Dog can't do is job properly if it's worried about getting something from other people.
To the first bit - so true. I don't think either of them were so bad that they actively harmed other service dogs, but the barking one definitely did not make the flight attendants any happier about the flight.

I guess my son's dog won't be "real" because we arent't paying $20,000 for an already 2 or 3-year-old dog that comes with a nifty certificate if authenticity. To hell with the fact that we may not even get seizure alerts for that price.

Then again, others believe my son's future service dog will maul him in his sleep since it isn't a Lab or Golden, so.....oh well.
Well, if you end up with a child-eating dog, I will take him from you if you need to re-home. I have met plenty of kids that need to be nommed on. :p
 

RBark

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#95
5 mins and 1 hour isn't much difference since it takes longer than that for a freaking dog to caalm down fully. The only way to get an accurate picture of their training is over multiple days in multiple venues. If it wasn't this way then people wouldn't need to qualify their dogs training in multiple venues and days to prove the overall training level in dog sports.
 

noludoru

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#96
5 mins and 1 hour isn't much difference since it takes longer than that for a freaking dog to caalm down fully. The only way to get an accurate picture of their training is over multiple days in multiple venues. If it wasn't this way then people wouldn't need to qualify their dogs training in multiple venues and days to prove the overall training level in dog sports.
The handler's reaction was what sealed it for me, though. They had zero control over their dog (not even a bit) and instead of reassurance, ignored it until it escalated and thought shoving it roughly into a crate while it went from upset to PANIC was the answer.

Even if the dog had had any ability to calm down, it wasn't actually panicking until the crate fiasco.
 

RBark

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#97
The handler's reaction was what sealed it for me, though. They had zero control over their dog (not even a bit) and instead of reassurance, ignored it until it escalated and thought shoving it roughly into a crate while it went from upset to PANIC was the answer.

Even if the dog had had any ability to calm down, it wasn't actually panicking until the crate fiasco.
99% of SD owners are not dog trainers. They are just ordinary people, a lot of whom never had a dog before, being taught only the very basic necessary cues and left at that. The way the AD owner reacts to a situation is even less of a indicator of whether it is a SD or not.
 

Dogdragoness

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#98
Eh, I still disagree with making judgement calls without knowing the situation. For example, if this was a store I would have no qualms with them being asked to leave for being a nuisance. It is often something you can put off if your dog is not performing well that day.

But flights can't be put off, in general. And there are a million what-if's at play here. Were they on their second or third connecting flight, and the dogs were stressed from the first flight? What are these dogs trained to do, and is something in the environment triggering their training even if it was the incorrect situation?

The person wanting people to pet her dog- maybe she's trying to get her dog to relax because she noticed the dog is getting stressed? Maybe she's trying to associate them with something positive?

What about if they are SDIT's? ESA's with owners who don't really know the difference? SDIT's have equal access rights as SD's in many states.

There's just so much that could be at play that it's really unfair to put someone on the defensive over one situation that you saw for a few minutes out of their whole life.
Me too, the dog might have been afraid of the plane noise (remember dogs hearing is much more sensitive than ours so I am sure they can hear the planes through the walls of the airport) or maybe it had a bad experience flying in the past?

SDs aren't robots, in fact, when I was at a funeral for OHs friend, a soldier killed in the line of duty, there was a SD there who did start barking when the soldiers were marching, I guess it was the sound their feet made on the asphalt.
 

Dogdragoness

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#99
Raegan, most of them aren't as good as they seem. Plus, those who have PTSD (or something else) that are not veterans are told to buzz off. A friend of mine (before she opted to owner train for a third time) was in the military but was not deployed was told by MANY programs that her PTSD wasn't legitimate enough for them to give her a dog, simply because she wasn't deployed.

Ruffian, I've had my dog (nearly) attacked by both fakers and program dogs. I'm a vigilant enough handler that I was able to prevent it, but if I had been in a wheelchair, or dissociated? Em can take care of herself, but she shouldn't have to.

Also, I saw the video but didn't really dive into it any further than that. How do we know the dog was an ESA? Many vets recieving dogs don't know the difference between an ESA and a PSD, even though it's a PSD that they're being given. "Emotional support dog" sounds nicer than "Psychiatric service dog", though legally they are separate things.

I personally don't feel that people who are unaffected by service dogs and are not involved with them should have any input regarding the laws, but that's me.
Uh ... what? So only the people affected get to have a say? EVERYONE is affected by an SD, that statement makes no sense.
 

yv0nne

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SDs are of no concern to me.. I don't use one, I don't need one& the only thing that I even really ever note as remarkable about them is how much higher the rate of them is in boards vs the general public.

I think some people unaffected by them have to help in making laws.. it seems silly to think only those affected should be I. Charge of deciding laws but, again, I don't really care as the end result will no way impact my life negatively.
 

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