"SDs" at Airport?

Fran101

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#44
I'm not going to complain too much, because it's the country that is employing me and filled with some wonderful things..

BUT I'm taking Merlin to London on the chance that he may never be able to truly be my service animal, he will alert at home/on public transport/wherever else I can take him (which is still an ENORMOUS HELP) but it won't be everywhere because they have no owner certification and the only program to help people work with their OWN animals is only for physical/mobility type disabilities
Now, this is a huge painful thing to deal with. We are working on it and my job is maybe going to help out but still.

Now take EVERY owner handler in America, how much their dogs have helped them personally..(and all the people who couldn't afford org trained service animals etc.. or like me who had needs those places didn't fill)
and compared to that, how much have fakers REALLY done? I don't know about you, but I've seen in my lifetime like 5 of them, tops.
How does it even compare?
Is the PROBLEM as serious as potentially stopping all that good? I don't think so..

So does one governing org training and distributing dog stop fakers? I mean, I'm sure it certainly helps...
but think of what we'd be losing


just my 2 cents.
 
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#45
Is the PROBLEM as serious as potentially stopping all that good? I don't think so...
This is how I feel about it, too. It's a solution in search of a problem, really. I can't say that I've ever seen anyone I've even been remotely suspicious of being a faker, despite all the anecdotal reports of how common it is.

But people just really, really don't like to see other people getting away with stuff no matter how rare it is or how little it affects them personally.
 

Julee

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#46
I agree with Fran.

Mandatory certification (or banning owner training in general) makes it so, so difficult for the many people needing these dogs to get them. Yes, it means we have to deal with fakers, clueless handlers, and dogs that don't have the temperament to be a service dog being forced to work anyways... actually, wait, certification doesn't fix that. The latter two come from programs just as frequently. ;)

I've met my share of bad program dogs and bad OT'd dogs. I've helped a lot of people train their OT dogs, I've helped quite a few people fix their program dogs. I've trained three SDs from the ground up in my home.

There are no (good) psychiatric service dog organizations, it's a very difficult thing to mass-train for. Those people would no longer be able to have their service dog. Seizure alert/response dogs are difficult to mass-train for. Mobility and guidework are easier, but most programs still screw it up. There are maybe 2-3 programs (between all of the different jobs) that I would ever consider recommending to someone. They just aren't as good of an option as people believe.
 

RD

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#47
I've never seen a fake service dog so disruptive that it would merit additional laws making life more difficult for disabled people with a legitimate, trained service dog. Trained does not just mean task trained, it means public access trained, too.

I took my sdit on a plane for the first time at about nine months of age. She'd been public access training since about five months. The only way to proof training on a plane is to take your service dog on a flight. Every dog has their first flight, some dogs like to embarrass their handlers at the worst possible times.

I was lucky that Eve was always on her very best behavior on flights, but sometimes in other places, she sucked. One day in Lowe's she decided to stand directly underfoot, trip me and scream like she was dying when I stepped on her foot. Disasters happen with dogs. It's lame. I'm sure people who saw my sdit and I on a bad day would've questioned our legitimacy too. Not all sunshine and rainbows with re dogs and real people.

I feel that no service dog under any circumstances should be trained to solicit attention from the public. That's a red flag for me. Dog can't do is job properly if it's worried about getting something from other people.
 

MicksMom

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#48
...But people just really, really don't like to see other people getting away with stuff no matter how rare it is or how little it affects them personally.
I have two problems with fake service dogs.

#1- i
t just makes things harder for people with real service dogs (just like bad/irresponsible dog owners make it harder for the rest of us).

#2- if I can follow the rules/laws with my well behaved, trained non service dog, so can everyone else.
 
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#49
Does it work? Can you train your own dog or must the dog be program-trained?


Yes you can owner train, you just have to be certified at the end, as per ADIs website. And as I said I have never seen a fake service dog here, ever. When my parents wintered in Arizona we went down for Christmas (so it wasn't even hot out) and I saw several people doing it, it used to **** my dad off to no end because he would leave his dog at the bus it in their liberty, and others would pack their dogs around claiming they were service dogs, and they were not well trained, one chihuahua snapped when we walked by.
 

RBark

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#50
I would be the first to agree that there's a problem with fakers. The solution is to enforce laws that already exist to protect businesses and the public. The solution is for businesses to learn their rights and train how to enforce it. Why make new laws when the existing ones aren't enforced? Certification won't suddenly make businesses enforce their rights.

They would have to train how to recognize a real SD certification vs a fake SD certification and enforce it otherwise it would be useless and people will keep right on faking with fake certification.

So the answer is the same in both scenarios. Why make new useless laws when you can just........ Enforce what's already there.

It would be like making another law that forbids murder because people are still murdering even though we have laws against it already. Why? It won't help stop murders. Just enforce the existing laws against murder and don't waste people's time trying to make useless laws.
 

GoingNowhere

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#51
Disregarding the ongoing discussion/debate, I have a question for the ignorant:

1) Aren't Emotional Support Animals (ESAs) allowed in cabin on a plane?
2) Don't ESAs not require any special training whatsoever?
3) Is it possible that the dogs' owners were just simplifying the question posed to them with the answer of "it's a service dog" because the vast majority of the general public probably hasn't a clue what an ESA is and even if they did, it might get into an uncomfortable emotional discussion?
 

RBark

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#52
1) yes

2) yes and no. Technically a SD isn't legally required to be heavily trained either, they just don't have to have behaviors that violate the rights of businesses. The same applies to ESA, they can be removed for nuisance behaviors. But flight is a difficult place to enforece it.


3) yes, 100% possible and very common.
 

Julee

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#53
Disregarding the ongoing discussion/debate, I have a question for the ignorant:

1) Aren't Emotional Support Animals (ESAs) allowed in cabin on a plane?
2) Don't ESAs not require any special training whatsoever?
3) Is it possible that the dogs' owners were just simplifying the question posed to them with the answer of "it's a service dog" because the vast majority of the general public probably hasn't a clue what an ESA is and even if they did, it might get into an uncomfortable emotional discussion?
Yes to the first two, and yes to the third... though that's illegal. ESAs also don't need to wear ID, so you wouldn't have to answer any questions... you could just say it's a pet. Since that's what an ESA is. And depending on how much you're willing to pay, the company you're flying with, etc, you can just take pets on the flight.

There are some places in Canada where you can not owner train. I am opposed to the idea of certification because there are many people in rural areas unable to travel somewhere to get the dog certified. That's not fair, IMO.
 
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#54
#2- if I can follow the rules/laws with my well behaved, trained non service dog, so can everyone else.
And this is my point. How does the rare person not following the rules substantively affect you, other than that they're getting away with something you're not?
 
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#55
Didn't someone on here have their legitimate service dog attacked by a fake service dog? I would say that it affected them.

So I take Bristol into a store with me, she has a service dog vest on, I'm questioned and reply "diabetic alert dog" it ends there, since store owners are not allowed to ask you to show the dog can perform said task, and how would you as that's a pretty dangerous demo, that makes it pretty easy to fake, even with the store owners knowing their rights.

And then you have people like that guy with his German shepherd swearing at the Walgreens manager, then blasting and posting the video telling people to stop supporting walgreens, it's a pr disaster, even though the manager was within his rights because it was an ESA and they do not have the same accessibility.
 

RBark

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#56
And this is my point. How does the rare person not following the rules substantively affect you, other than that they're getting away with something you're not?
It's kind of a strange argument too lol. There are people out there getting away with robbery, murder, speeding, etc. I think they need to be stopped. So let's make a cerftification program to prove people arent murderers or thieves. I wonder if that would go over well with anyone. There's no chance whatsoever of that being okay. Yet somehow it's okay to do that to the disabled?
 

RBark

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#57
Didn't someone on here have their legitimate service dog attacked by a fake service dog? I would say that it affected them.

So I take Bristol into a store with me, she has a service dog vest on, I'm questioned and reply "diabetic alert dog" it ends there, since store owners are not allowed to ask you to show the dog can perform said task, and how would you as that's a pretty dangerous demo, that makes it pretty easy to fake, even with the store owners knowing their rights.

And then you have people like that guy with his German shepherd swearing at the Walgreens manager, then blasting and posting the video telling people to stop supporting walgreens, it's a pr disaster, even though the manager was within his rights because it was an ESA and they do not have the same accessibility.
Again all that can be prevented by enforcing existing laws. The Walgreen story would not be prevented by certification as no business would train how to recognize fake or real certification just like they don't train existing laws. They would be afraid of accusing a legitimate sd owner of faking and have a PR disaster so they wouldn't even try to stop fakers anymore
 
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#58
But if there was a national certification and the dog didn't have it then out they go, there are no other questions, the dog is certified, or it goes out, that's it. Ranting and swearing would do nothing, and posting the video would do nothing because the guy either would or wouldnt have REAL id, not some Cracker Jack box id.

You know what they say about assuming right? The manager at Walgreens in that video asked all the right questions, when he didn't get the right answers he asked the guy to leave, and the guy flipped out. What other training is he supposed to have?
 
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#59
Didn't someone on here have their legitimate service dog attacked by a fake service dog? I would say that it affected them.
I'm not talking about legitimate service dogs or handlers at all. I'm talking about how are people without service dogs being affected? Which is... really not at all. As an average dog owner, someone else faking a service dog to get in a store or on a plane or whatever has absolutely no affect on my life or my decisions of whether or how to bring my dogs to those places.

And it's nice to be concerned about how fakers affect legitimate handlers, but at the end of the day that, as RBark has stated multiple times, is a problem with store owners either not knowing, not understanding, or not enforcing the rights they already have under the law. There are questions that can be legally asked. Disruptive dogs, service dogs or no, can be asked to leave.

When service dog handlers are saying, "we don't want this certification and here are xyz reasons why it will actually make my life harder," I tend to listen to that rather than well-meaning people who are angry at fakers because of reasons.

And then you have people like that guy with his German shepherd swearing at the Walgreens manager, then blasting and posting the video telling people to stop supporting walgreens, it's a pr disaster, even though the manager was within his rights because it was an ESA and they do not have the same accessibility.
Was it a PR disaster? Somehow Walgreens is still in business and this is the first time I've heard about this incident. One guy being a jerk is still going to be a jerk. Just wait until someone like him has fake certification and THEN see what the PR disaster looks like in comparison.
 

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