Rescued unsocialized dog - considering shock collar

[twobadfish]

I have a 1.5 year old (approx) rescued Irish Setter that was neutered a little over a week ago. When we take him to the dog park he humps incessantly. I thought it may have been energy-related but I took him there immediately after a 5 mile run and it seemed to make it worse - he was in hyperhump mode. I HATE punishment but this is one behavior that I absolutely draw the line on and it's my #1 priority right now (aside from putting on 10lbs).

He will grab the dog with his front legs and pin it to the ground sometimes. He isn't aggressive, but it seems like the only thing he wants to do is hump. He is EASILY deterred by dogs with attitude. However dogs that seem to not understand or are very submissive will just roll over like they are playing or just stand there. And they become targets. It's very, very clear my dog isn't playing. I don't even think he knows how to play.

Which leads me to socialization. I believe he is unsocialized. We suspect he was a stud at a puppy mill and has spent the majority of his life in a cage (vet said his canines are 30%+ worn down from chewing on the metal wires of a cage). I understand he is still adjusting to his new life and I'm trying to be patient but this really drives me over the edge.

Overall he is sensitive, gentle, energetic, and is coming along pretty well in training (reading The Power of Positive Training). He is 10lbs underweight and just recovering from SEVERE ear infections. He runs 5+ miles every single day we've had him.

I want him to be able to go to the dog park but the humping is unacceptable. I'm considering a shock collar but I want to try other methods. I've read some things on the forums here (time outs, spray bottle) but I'm just skeptical because of how much he is driven to this behavior - especially if he was a stud. When he is running with other dogs you can tell he is just waiting for the opportunity to jump up.

Grrrrr

 

[Taqroy]

I wouldn't take him to the dog park until you get the behavior under control. Giving him a chance to practice it is probably self rewarding and until you get a handle on it you don't want to give him any opportunities.

The humping is probably an excitement behavior. I have a male that ONLY humps other male dogs. His (Murphy in my siggie) is entirely excitement based and is easily interrupted. What have you been doing to fix the behavior?

Can you set up play dates with other dogs and put him on a long line? You'd have to be careful not to get anyone tangled in the line but then you can prevent the behavior you don't want and reward the ones you do.

Honestly - you might have to accept that he's not a dog park dog. None of my three are and while I REALLY wish they were (*I* have fun at the dog park lol) it's just too much stress for them and me. They still get to hang out with and play with other dogs - just not at the dog park.

 

[Danefied]

First of all, if the dog was neutered only a week ago, he should NOT be running 5 miles yet, and should NOT be at a dog park.

Secondly, one week is nowhere near long enough for the testosterone to clear the system and definitely not long enough for practiced behaviors to extinguish.

Thirdly, how long have you had this rescue? I would not be taking ANY rescue to a dog park until we had spent a LOT of time together, under minimal distractions, just getting to know each other, building trust and a shared language. With some rescues this takes weeks, with others it takes months. (Actually in all honesty, I would not take any of my dogs to a dog park, but that's a whole 'nother can o' worms )

I don't think a shock collar is your answer for many reasons. Not the least of which it could be an excellent way for him to associate other dogs with the shock and you will go from having an unsocialized dog to having a dog-aggressive dog. I'll take the unsocialized one thanks.

There are a myriad of things you can do besides shock your dog for humping. First and foremost, do NOT allow it to happen. That means leash or long line and no interactions with other dogs until you have excellent voice control. Behaviors that are not allowed to be practiced extinguish much faster.
When you see humping about to happen, quickly ask for an incompatible behavior. Does the dog like to chase balls or sticks? Tug? You can't run and hump at the same time, you can't tug and hump at the same time. Think of activities that involve movement that will get him away from the other dog and not humping. This gives him an alternate, more acceptable behavior that also allows him to blow off steam.

 

[twobadfish]

Thanks for the replies

@Taqroy - So far I have been following him fairly closely at the park and when he starts humping, I pull him off. However my aggression admittedly has been increasing each day we go - something I am trying to extinguish myself. I've never had such a sensitive dog and this is the first time I've tried to move away from punishment based training. I feel it's the only way it will build confidence in this particular dog (positive training) and so far it's working well.

@Danefied - not running him just isn't an option. As per the vet (two different vets actually), I waited 3 days (when they said he can return to his normal activities - including running) then ran him a couple miles up until we were at 5-6/day again. Today he wore me out - just wouldn't slow down.

I understand your apprehension about taking him to the park with other dogs and see why you would be concerned. I actually think it would have been better to wait myself because I'm noticing that he is becoming more relaxed and more playful as he gets used to his new home. Ultimately though, It's a minor concern that will be monitored. We rescued him on July 21. I've had dogs all my life and am pretty good at reading them.

The problem with a play date is that is has to be a more submissive dog, or he won't attempt to hump it. We were running yesterday and I finally got him to play with me and as he got really excited it seemed he may have been trying to figure out how to mount me. He never figured it out so I'm not entirely sure.

If I had to choose between a dog that never got to play at the park and training with a shock collar for a week, I would choose shock collar. But like I said, it would be the last effort.

We have decided to take a week off from the dog park and when we return, it will be supervised on leash the entire time and I'll work on replacing the humping behavior with something else. He isn't interested in food while we're out, and he isn't that interested in toys either. At least, not yet. So the biggest problem there is finding something that excites him more than humping. A lot of it though can be him getting used to all of this stimulation.

I've read that they can associate the dog he's humping to the shock, but that seems like it would be a little easier to deal with than him trying to hump anything that moves.

Phew! My fingers are sore

 

[Taqroy]

I've read that they can associate the dog he's humping to the shock, but that seems like it would be a little easier to deal with than him trying to hump anything that moves.

Trust me it absolutely IS NOT easier to fix the shocking issue as opposed to the humping issue. Before I got into positive training I tried a shock collar on Murphy for his excitement reactivity (not just humping, also barking in male dog's faces, just general bad social skills). The end result of that little experiment was a gigantic dog fight between him (50 pound dog) and my sister's St. Bernard mutt (150 pounds). It was BAD - Murphy popped his canine through his lip and scared the living hell out of me. He's held a grudge against her dog since then and it's entirely my fault. I hate knowing that I'm the reason they can't hang out anymore.

I think working on self control would help a lot. Teaching an extremely solid sit would work for interrupting the behavior whether it's directed toward you or towards other dogs. And maybe taking a more extended break from the dog park, until you really get a handle on it. If it does stress you out that much (and I totally understand being annoyed when your dog WILL NOT STOP - I've been there) why keep doing it? At worst it's going to damage your relationship with your dog and at a minimum it's going to stress both of you out.

 

[Danefied]

The problem with a play date is that is has to be a more submissive dog, or he won't attempt to hump it. We were running yesterday and I finally got him to play with me and as he got really excited it seemed he may have been trying to figure out how to mount me. He never figured it out so I'm not entirely sure.

So do you want him to hump or not? How is it a problem for him to have a playdate with a dog he won't hump? I'm not following, sorry.
Unless you're saying you want him to hump so you can correct him, which seems a bit of a backwards way to teach a dog how to behave appropriately. I prefer to set a dog up to succeed so he can be rewarded, rather than setting him up to fail so he can be punished. Seems to me like if the dog hung out enough with dogs who don't allow humping and encourage other forms of play, it would set him well on the way to interacting with other dogs without humping. But what do I know...

If I had to choose between a dog that never got to play at the park and training with a shock collar for a week, I would choose shock collar. But like I said, it would be the last effort.

I don't think those are your only two choices. Teach the dog to respond to you and you won't need a shock collar at the park or anywhere else.

We have decided to take a week off from the dog park and when we return, it will be supervised on leash the entire time and I'll work on replacing the humping behavior with something else. He isn't interested in food while we're out, and he isn't that interested in toys either. At least, not yet. So the biggest problem there is finding something that excites him more than humping. A lot of it though can be him getting used to all of this stimulation.

He's not interested in food or toys because he is over stimulated, over threshold. Think the three "D's" - Distraction, distance, and duration.
If he's not taking treats, try decreasing the distractions, increasing the distance from the distraction, or decreasing the time he is around the distractions. Tweak these until you get a dog who is taking treats, and work from there. You can't throw a kid in to the deep end of the pool and expect them to figure out how to stay afloat without teaching them a few basics of swimming. Same with dogs. Teach him what he needs to know to stay afloat before throwing him in over his head.

I've read that they can associate the dog he's humping to the shock, but that seems like it would be a little easier to deal with than him trying to hump anything that moves.

No its not. Really. You're not going to get your dog seized and euthanized over humping. In some areas you do run that risk if your dog decides to chomp on another dog badly enough. Dog aggression is nothing to scoff at.

 

[Dekka]

Using a shock collar is a great way to teach your dog to fear and attack other dogs on sight.

Perhaps teaching your dog to settle might be more useful than trying to exercise your dog to 'good behaviour' IME that never works, your dog gets fitter and fitter and more 'high' and more 'high'.

(this comes from a person who breeds and works with Jack Russells)

 

[twobadfish]

I think working on self control would help a lot. Teaching an extremely solid sit would work for interrupting the behavior whether it's directed toward you or towards other dogs. And maybe taking a more extended break from the dog park, until you really get a handle on it. If it does stress you out that much (and I totally understand being annoyed when your dog WILL NOT STOP - I've been there) why keep doing it? At worst it's going to damage your relationship with your dog and at a minimum it's going to stress both of you out.

You're right. For now I'm going to continue working on his training and more importantly getting him to respond to me when we are outside. It's just such a new concept to me. I mean I am essentially rewiring my brain right now. But I really like the way he is responding to it. Where he WANTS to do something for me whether than doing it out of fear or reaction to my aggressive body language.

So do you want him to hump or not? How is it a problem for him to have a playdate with a dog he won't hump? I'm not following, sorry.
Unless you're saying you want him to hump so you can correct him, which seems a bit of a backwards way to teach a dog how to behave appropriately. I prefer to set a dog up to succeed so he can be rewarded, rather than setting him up to fail so he can be punished. Seems to me like if the dog hung out enough with dogs who don't allow humping and encourage other forms of play, it would set him well on the way to interacting with other dogs without humping. But what do I know...

I guess I don't understand how never exposing him to something that elicits a behavior will teach him not to do that behavior. Pat Miller's book mentions managing these types of behaviors by removing the opportunity - but never fixes it. So if the dog is getting into the trash, lock the lid and he'll never get into the trash again. So far, this is my only disconnect from positive training: behaviors that can't be managed with positive training, in my opinion, should be managed in another way. But I'm also still new to this type of training - which might be a part of why I don't understand.

No its not. Really. You're not going to get your dog seized and euthanized over humping. In some areas you do run that risk if your dog decides to chomp on another dog badly enough. Dog aggression is nothing to scoff at.

[/quote]

I don't know much about this training method as I've never used it (and I've had dogs all my life) - but I know it's something that a lot of trainers use and are able to do it effectively. I don't intend to manage it myself, but have a professional help me with it (if I decide to). I understand the risks, which is why it would be the absolute last thing I try. Never exposing him to other dogs is not a solution I'm willing to take. I can't really argue it's merits beyond that and I'd rather not - as I'm not to the point where I'm shopping for collars. Please don't take any of this offensively

 

[twobadfish]

Using a shock collar is a great way to teach your dog to fear and attack other dogs on sight.

Perhaps teaching your dog to settle might be more useful than trying to exercise your dog to 'good behaviour' IME that never works, your dog gets fitter and fitter and more 'high' and more 'high'.

(this comes from a person who breeds and works with Jack Russells)

Do you mean that he shouldn't be exercised as much? Everything I've ever read about the breed (Irish Setters) is completely contrary to that. I'm not trying to exercise him to good behavior but give him what he wants and needs as a breed (as I understand them).

 

[SaraB]

Do you mean that he shouldn't be exercised as much? Everything I've ever read about the breed (Irish Setters) is completely contrary to that. I'm not trying to exercise him to good behavior but give him what he wants and needs as a breed (as I understand them).

Mental exercise is more important in high energy breeds than physical exercise. As you are already mentioning, he has enough stamina to outlast your runs. What do you do when 6 miles isn't enough? 7? 10? Dogs build up stamina insanely quick and it's not a good thing when they do.

Mental exercise in the form of training and other games are very beneficial to wearing out a dog. Make him work for his food with treat dispensing toys or divide his food into portions to use in training sessions throughout the day. Take him on a walk through a field on a long line so that he can put his setter nose to work. Get involved with a canine sport.

 

[Dekka]

Do you mean that he shouldn't be exercised as much? Everything I've ever read about the breed (Irish Setters) is completely contrary to that. I'm not trying to exercise him to good behavior but give him what he wants and needs as a breed (as I understand them).

Yes he needs exercise. But that doesn't mean he needs to be tired to be well behaved.

They are a high energy breed, but not that high. Heck we have a very high energy (even for the breed) BC but he doesn't become unhinged if he doesn't get to run around every day.

I would never EVER use a shock collar on a dog interacting with other dogs. Even if that meant my dog could never go to a dog park. Our JRTs and BC aren't dog park dogs anyway. Mental stimulation (as previously mentioned) is as satisfying to a dog in many ways as physical stimulation.

Why not pick a dog sport like agility and do that with your dog? You would get training help, learn how to work with your dog as a team AND give your dog physical and mental stimulation.

 

[twobadfish]

Why not pick a dog sport like agility and do that with your dog? You would get training help, learn how to work with your dog as a team AND give your dog physical and mental stimulation.

I absolutely intend to get him involved in agility I've even already began to plan out building some of the stations and looking at local clubs. After he gets settled in there is a local dog club that does training sessions that I want to go through, from which point we will start on agility.

By the way, he is fine at home when he isn't exercised. You can tell he has more energy, but that's it. He is playful and loves to be mischievous but that's ok - it's one of the things I love about his personality. He'll start play bowing and howling at us to engage us in playing.

But if he's anything like my Westie, he will become neurotic and destructive if he doesn't get exercised enough. And he LOVES to run. To be honest, I didn't expect running him to be discouraged

 

[Linds]

By the way, he is fine at home when he isn't exercised. You can tell he has more energy, but that's it. He is playful and loves to be mischievous but that's ok - it's one of the things I love about his personality. He'll start play bowing and howling at us to engage us in playing.

Then I wouldn't worry. As long as he can still calm his mind and body if not given an outlet for a little while I think it's fine. It's when the dogs start being unable to rest or relax and because of that you run then longer and harder and they become even more prone to not relaxing. I would also reward him when you can if he's being good inside the house and give things to encourage behaviors like that (kong, chew, etc)

But I fully applaud all the exercise your dog is getting and you seem perfectly content with his behavior outside the humping. I see nothing wrong with a dogs endurance and stamina being through the roof as long as they can shut off .

I know my dog is physically fit enough to go as long as I want him to and I like that. But he's ok if it storms for 4 days.

 

[Maxy24]

I would not use a shock collar on a dog while he's interacting with another dog. He could easily freak and maul the other dog, he could become permanently dog aggressive, or he could just become fearful and avoid them. Humping is better than all of these. If he ends up aggressive he certainly won't be able to go to the park.


I don't know dog park rules/safety stuff, my dog is too fearful to go to one. Could he drag a leash in there? Or one of those short tab things? Then you could remove him easily and take him away. Can they be on long lines?

Are you sure he actually enjoys the dog park? Will he ever actually play with the dogs?

 

[Danefied]

not running him just isn't an option.

By the way, he is fine at home when he isn't exercised.

To me there is a disconnect between these two statements.

I don't think it is a bad idea to exercise a dog at all. I have a houseful of very active puppers myself. But they need the mental part too, and they absolutely need to know how to turn off too.

BTW I think Irish Setters are absolutely gorgeous - you must post pics!!

 

[Dekka]

I absolutely intend to get him involved in agility I've even already began to plan out building some of the stations and looking at local clubs. After he gets settled in there is a local dog club that does training sessions that I want to go through, from which point we will start on agility.

By the way, he is fine at home when he isn't exercised. You can tell he has more energy, but that's it. He is playful and loves to be mischievous but that's ok - it's one of the things I love about his personality. He'll start play bowing and howling at us to engage us in playing.

But if he's anything like my Westie, he will become neurotic and destructive if he doesn't get exercised enough. And he LOVES to run. To be honest, I didn't expect running him to be discouraged

Its not running him thats bad. (well other than running so soon after surgery) its just that you seemed to think he HAD to be run to be ok. I, like Danified, am a bit confused. If you and your dog enjoy running, there is nothing wrong with it. Its when its used as a crutch, or when it creates more problems that there is an issue.

Shock collars DO have a place. But not in the hands of anyone but the very experienced, and never when dealing with interactions with other dogs. Its VERY easy for your dog to associate the pain of the collar with the other dog, making him more upset and antagonistic with other dogs. Even if it did 'work' all you are doing is teaching him other dogs 'hurt'. Not conducive to teaching him to play.

I suggest you find a good trainer and go from there.

 

[twobadfish]

To me there is a disconnect between these two statements.

I don't think it is a bad idea to exercise a dog at all. I have a houseful of very active puppers myself. But they need the mental part too, and they absolutely need to know how to turn off too.

BTW I think Irish Setters are absolutely gorgeous - you must post pics!!

Well, I stated that I run him because that's what I feel he wants and needs (from my research on the breed and talking to club members, and how he acts when we are getting ready to run) - and I also very much enjoy running with him. I also stated that I intend to start him on agility once we get him through some basic training.

I don't want to get an argument over why I enjoy exercising my dog or why I do it. To me it's a bizarre thing to argue about. But I do appreciate the concern

In either case, I appreciate all the input and after doing a lot more research and following up on some things mentioned in this thread, I think I'm armed with enough to get started on integrating this guy into our home

Thanks for your help and input :hail:

 

[AliciaD]

I'm tempted to ship you my dog Cameron. She doesn't tolerate humping or mounting at all. Of the 3 dog fights (not really a fight, just snarkiness) she's "started" were all triggered by other dogs mounting her. She won't tolerate it.

I agree with the others, don't go with the shock collar. I would try a time out method with one on one dates. Have it be a dog he will attempt to hump but likes and will want to play with.

Keep him on a long line. The second he goes to mount I would turn around, head in the opposite direction, and give him a time out to calm down, preferably out of sight. Wait until he is mellow, and then reintroduce him. If he goes to mount again, I would repeat by removing him from the situation once again.

Returning to the other dog is the reward, being removed is the punishment.

Hump=removal, calm=returning.

It's up to you whether or not you want to mark the wrong behavior, I wouldn't, simply because he's going to figure it out soon enough anyways and some clever dogs will learn that they only have to modify their behavior when their owner marks it as wrong.
(I am tired and up late, so I'm not sure how helpful this will be, but it is what I've heard helps when an owner's dog humps guests)

 

[MafiaPrincess]

Well, I stated that I run him because that's what I feel he wants and needs (from my research on the breed and talking to club members, and how he acts when we are getting ready to run) - and I also very much enjoy running with him. I also stated that I intend to start him on agility once we get him through some basic training.

Pretty much any dog would get excited that they are going out whether it is a walk or a run. It isn't just your dog or your breed. There is nothing wrong with exercise but from all your posts it seems like you will end up with a super fit dog - which is great, but then that super fit dog will need more and more exercise to get them to the point you consider them tired.

I run with one of my cockers. The other doesn't enjoy 'forced' running with me. The one who likes to run with me is my less fit boy. If we run 3x a week every week.. In a month he no longer has that same level of pooped by the time we get home as he has fit up. So to get the same level of tired out of him we would have to go further and further as the 6km doesn't cut it any more. People are simply warning you that the more you feel your dog HAS to be run to be tired it will become a crutch and more exercise will be needed to achieve the same results.

Not everyone here even walks their dogs daily as at home training and games will create a mentally tired dog.

I don't want to get an argument over why I enjoy exercising my dog or why I do it. To me it's a bizarre thing to argue about. But I do appreciate the concern

In either case, I appreciate all the input and after doing a lot more research and following up on some things mentioned in this thread, I think I'm armed with enough to get started on integrating this guy into our home

Thanks for your help and input :hail:

No you don't seem to appreciate the concern. You've come to a dog forum full of people with experience and asked questions. Your dog may never be a dog park dog so you will need to find other avenues to deal with what you feel is above average excess energy.

Either your dog settles at home or it's high as a kite. You can't have it both ways it's contradictory. Either or, a shock collar won't help that. Training will.

 

[twobadfish]

MafiaPrincess, is this part where you punish me for "not listening" by extrapolating way more data than I actually provided --OR-- mistaking my sincerity for disdain or dismissal? I pretty much heard "your dog needs as much exercise as any other breed (WRONG)" and "you don't have experience with dogs (WRONG)" --OR-- "I have completely misunderstood you (CORRECT)".

1) My dog knows when he is going for a run (I take my bike down) and when he is going for a walk. He reacts very differently to the two. I'm sure he loves to run as much as many other dogs would - but that is completely irrelevant to how much he loves it or why he loves it. The point is, HE LOVES IT.

2) I DO appreciate the concern, as it has introduced me to a concept I had not considered before (managing his higher energy levels as a result of exercise). I've also mentioned putting him through a basic obedience course and starting agility training.

3) Irish Setters are amongst the highest in exercise requirements and energy levels; it is the foremost item mentioned in any website/article about them. Ignoring this would be irresponsible.

4) I never once mentioned having difficulty managing his energy. I have actually indicated otherwise in a post that I enjoy his rambunctiousness and playfullness. It's clear that you have completely misread all of my posts and took away a completely different meaning. Seriously, I don't run my dog because "he has too much energy". I am not considering a shock collar because "he has too much energy".

Does that clear up any of the things you have gotten resoundingly wrong?