Real Working Dogs
- Thread starter crazedACD
- Start date
The stud owner usually gets second pick, not first, unless the stud owner co-breeds and whelps and raises the litter. And that makes sense--why on earth would anyone go through the trouble of planning, whelping, and raising a litter and then let someone else walk off the best culmination of her hard work?
Ding ding ding!
:hail: All of this!! Laurelin, you know I have a Pap? I can see we'd be friends if geography allowed.
Also, it seems to be ok if the 2yo bitch or stud only has lower level performance titles. The dogs earn more titles later, sure, but what is the breeding criteria? No confo titles, novice performance titles, oh and completely unsuitable for a pet home.
Intelligent, driven, competitive 9 - 5 lawyers and business owners (who research paper towels) are buying puppies from kennels with many breedings every year by parents with baby titles, incomplete health testing, 30+ adult dogs in residence, oh and you can't say I want a puppy from A x B. Maybe A will be bred to C or D or maybe X will be bred to B -you can't specify
. Obviously, there are enough buyers who feel this is responsible and ethical.
That dog is a weekend warrior. The vast majority of buyers are local competitors with 9 - 5 jobs, not World Team members. My CH sire of merit Ag/Rally/OB competitor is a pet 90% of the time. When I'm in the market, I won't know what is responsible breeding for my purposes.
:hail: All of this!! Laurelin, you know I have a Pap? I can see we'd be friends if geography allowed.
Also, it seems to be ok if the 2yo bitch or stud only has lower level performance titles. The dogs earn more titles later, sure, but what is the breeding criteria? No confo titles, novice performance titles, oh and completely unsuitable for a pet home.
Intelligent, driven, competitive 9 - 5 lawyers and business owners (who research paper towels) are buying puppies from kennels with many breedings every year by parents with baby titles, incomplete health testing, 30+ adult dogs in residence, oh and you can't say I want a puppy from A x B. Maybe A will be bred to C or D or maybe X will be bred to B -you can't specify
. Obviously, there are enough buyers who feel this is responsible and ethical.That dog is a weekend warrior. The vast majority of buyers are local competitors with 9 - 5 jobs, not World Team members. My CH sire of merit Ag/Rally/OB competitor is a pet 90% of the time. When I'm in the market, I won't know what is responsible breeding for my purposes.
This. As the owner of a dog, you fundamentally don't get to choose whether your dog is bred. You can turn down an offer if you don't like the bitch, but it's up to the owner of the bitch to approach you in the first place. If your goal is just to breed your dog no matter what, your options are going to be limited to BYB bitches owned by other people who are having a litter just for fun, or to "let their kids see puppies being born". And as others mentioned, you do not get pick of the litter unless you're going to breed and raise the litter yourself.
Also, claiming that you don't need a confo Ch title beacuse the dog's parents are champions is ridiculous. I have seen a lot of dogs who are from Ch and GCh parents who are not put together well at all. Being from "champion lines" says nothing about whether a dog's structure is good enough for breeding.
Also, claiming that you don't need a confo Ch title beacuse the dog's parents are champions is ridiculous. I have seen a lot of dogs who are from Ch and GCh parents who are not put together well at all. Being from "champion lines" says nothing about whether a dog's structure is good enough for breeding.
Meh to Ch
Dekka wouldn't do well in the confo ring. I have never bothered to enter her. She is far to straight in the shoulder. However she will hunt and she has proven herself to be a good sport dog. I was just very careful who I bred her too. Kat, her daughter did quite well in the confo ring and to me was all I was hoping for the litter. Wash/Walsh could have done well in the confo right, he was quite correct.
I care more how the dog acts vs is it the current fashion of the image of the breed. I mean that is nice too but I don't think its the end all and be all if the dog has other attributes worth passing on.
That said I am amused that Schen comes from a long long line of ch dogs and that his dad is an American and Japanese champion. He's a pet/performance prospect only due to his derpy little underbite.
Dekka wouldn't do well in the confo ring. I have never bothered to enter her. She is far to straight in the shoulder. However she will hunt and she has proven herself to be a good sport dog. I was just very careful who I bred her too. Kat, her daughter did quite well in the confo ring and to me was all I was hoping for the litter. Wash/Walsh could have done well in the confo right, he was quite correct.
I care more how the dog acts vs is it the current fashion of the image of the breed. I mean that is nice too but I don't think its the end all and be all if the dog has other attributes worth passing on.
That said I am amused that Schen comes from a long long line of ch dogs and that his dad is an American and Japanese champion. He's a pet/performance prospect only due to his derpy little underbite.
I was just responding in general. Not meant as a comment to whether said dog should be bred. Just that ch are not the end all and be all. It is good if a dog comes from a long line of ch as the genes are likely there (in Dekka's case I bred to a stud dog who was a champion and came from a long line of champions)
:hail: All of this!! Laurelin, you know I have a Pap? I can see we'd be friends if geography allowed.
Also, it seems to be ok if the 2yo bitch or stud only has lower level performance titles. The dogs earn more titles later, sure, but what is the breeding criteria? No confo titles, novice performance titles, oh and completely unsuitable for a pet home.
Intelligent, driven, competitive 9 - 5 lawyers and business owners (who research paper towels) are buying puppies from kennels with many breedings every year by parents with baby titles, incomplete health testing, 30+ adult dogs in residence, oh and you can't say I want a puppy from A x B. Maybe A will be bred to C or D or maybe X will be bred to B -you can't specify. Obviously, there are enough buyers who feel this is responsible and ethical.
That dog is a weekend warrior. The vast majority of buyers are local competitors with 9 - 5 jobs, not World Team members. My CH sire of merit Ag/Rally/OB competitor is a pet 90% of the time. When I'm in the market, I won't know what is responsible breeding for my purposes.
Also, it seems to be ok if the 2yo bitch or stud only has lower level performance titles. The dogs earn more titles later, sure, but what is the breeding criteria? No confo titles, novice performance titles, oh and completely unsuitable for a pet home.
Intelligent, driven, competitive 9 - 5 lawyers and business owners (who research paper towels) are buying puppies from kennels with many breedings every year by parents with baby titles, incomplete health testing, 30+ adult dogs in residence, oh and you can't say I want a puppy from A x B. Maybe A will be bred to C or D or maybe X will be bred to B -you can't specify
. Obviously, there are enough buyers who feel this is responsible and ethical.That dog is a weekend warrior. The vast majority of buyers are local competitors with 9 - 5 jobs, not World Team members. My CH sire of merit Ag/Rally/OB competitor is a pet 90% of the time. When I'm in the market, I won't know what is responsible breeding for my purposes.
Yeah the sports arena is a mess in some ways. I was very idealistic when I came into it thinking it had to be better than the confo circles but I am really not sure. The best I can do is get dogs from people I like and not support the kennels that are involved in some of these practices.
There's a big reason Hank is a random shelter mutt! All I want is a nice dog from a breeder in it for the right reasons and not to make a fortune. Sadly hard to find. I would really like to go with a breeder next go around but we will see.
Yes, I do agree. Watson's grandfather was only shown once and had no other titles, but his breeder knew that he was what she wanted to breed back to her bitch. He ended up as a companion for an older man who had health problems, so showing wasn't possible. A good breeder will know when the title is important and when it isn't, and how to balance traits that they want. But it requires the breeder to know what they want, what they have, and where they are going with their breeding program.
And there are plenty of working dogs who are fantastic and no one in their lines has ever been near a conformation ring, and there's nothing wrong with that either. The breeder still knows what they want and what they are trying to produce with their dogs.
And there are plenty of working dogs who are fantastic and no one in their lines has ever been near a conformation ring, and there's nothing wrong with that either. The breeder still knows what they want and what they are trying to produce with their dogs.
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Bear didnt to welll in the conformation ring, either. He is too finely built, here they prefer a heavier dog :/ But he will hunt the pants of anyone's dog and has a great personality to boot.
On breeding: I have known stud owners who have negotiated first pick, but 2nd pick would be fine as well. Of course this is only a pipe dream right now, and many years into the future, I dont even know if my life will work out so that can happen anyway ... but its nice to dream, right?
On breeding: I have known stud owners who have negotiated first pick, but 2nd pick would be fine as well
. Of course this is only a pipe dream right now, and many years into the future, I dont even know if my life will work out so that can happen anyway ... but its nice to dream, right?
The thing about 1st and 2nd picks too is people have different goals and tastes, so what is one person's pick isn't necessarily going to be the same as another's. A lot of times it works out so that everyone involved gets their first pick.
Let's say I have a hypothetical nice male. I have my own breeding program and goals, my own planned litters and there is a cap on the number of dogs I can keep.
Someone with a hypothetical nice bitch approaches me and wants to use him. She's nice, not part of my planned breedings but eh, if they want to use him she's nice.
In a case like that, why would I take the absolute best pick puppy of the litter? The dam's owner would need that dog to continue with THEIR plans. I don't need it. If I did the breeding for a puppy back chances are I might even just pick a nice companion puppy as payment and place it in a companion home on my waiting list.
Let's say I have a hypothetical nice male. I have my own breeding program and goals, my own planned litters and there is a cap on the number of dogs I can keep.
Someone with a hypothetical nice bitch approaches me and wants to use him. She's nice, not part of my planned breedings but eh, if they want to use him she's nice.
In a case like that, why would I take the absolute best pick puppy of the litter? The dam's owner would need that dog to continue with THEIR plans. I don't need it. If I did the breeding for a puppy back chances are I might even just pick a nice companion puppy as payment and place it in a companion home on my waiting list.
Romy's point about everyone not wanting the same thing is very true. In Grendel's litter, there were 9 puppies, and the most heavily titled puppy in the litter was picked last, but nobody picked incorrectly. Rather everybody picked the puppy that was the best match for their needs/goals.
My point was the stud owner is not in charge.
Also, most good males don't get bred, including dogs with impressive accomplishments. A good friend has a borzoi male with his show championship and racing championship. He also has a CDX, RAE, CGC, TDI, and TT, and is the first ever borzoi Champion Tracker. He's pretty, nicely structured, and fast, and he has a wonderful temperament ( and, yes, he has his CHIC number, too) The owner has never had so much as a preliminary inquiry about a breeding. (The owner didn't get him to breed him and doesn't care.) You should never count on anyone being interested in using your male, no matter how nice he is.
My point was the stud owner is not in charge.
Also, most good males don't get bred, including dogs with impressive accomplishments. A good friend has a borzoi male with his show championship and racing championship. He also has a CDX, RAE, CGC, TDI, and TT, and is the first ever borzoi Champion Tracker. He's pretty, nicely structured, and fast, and he has a wonderful temperament ( and, yes, he has his CHIC number, too) The owner has never had so much as a preliminary inquiry about a breeding. (The owner didn't get him to breed him and doesn't care.) You should never count on anyone being interested in using your male, no matter how nice he is.