~*Rally-O*~

MafiaPrincess

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#21
LMAO, cute on the signs. We'll likely be doing CARO (being Canadian there are more places offering it/ more trials if we ever got there).

Our heeling is abysmal. Guess we should really work on that some prior. I know it should be fun Ob, which I could really use, just nervous, new school, new class, not sure what to expect ahhhh! lol.
 

sam

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#22
LMAO, cute on the signs. We'll likely be doing CARO (being Canadian there are more places offering it/ more trials if we ever got there).

Our heeling is abysmal. Guess we should really work on that some prior. I know it should be fun Ob, which I could really use, just nervous, new school, new class, not sure what to expect ahhhh! lol.

geez I accidentally printed off all the CARO signs. I should mail them to you ;) I'm in Canada too but most of our local trials are APDT. We've been training for some CARO stuff to hopefully do some of their trials next spring/summer. CARO has some really cool stuff in their higher levels like heeling, doing all the course work on either side, more fun obstacles etc.
 

MafiaPrincess

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#23
LMAO. If we ever get really into it the way we are about agility, I'd look into exactly what trials are where, but CARO seems more popular here.. but not that many places offer Rally yet.

Do you have any help on heeling? A site you adore, or anything.. We tried advanced Ob and disliked the instructor.. They had us walkign a step and clickign and treating when the dog stopped with you... After a few classes no one had progressed beyond that... Better method?
 

sam

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#24
So you've got the clicker timing down? That's a good thing. :)

The thing about heeling is it's hard to reward dogs while they are actually performing the behavior since we're moving, so we tend to stop to treat the dog. That doesn't really tell the dog that being in heel position as you walk along is what gets rewarded, so they pay attention to the stopping more than to what they need to do in heel. So.... a couple things to try.

One is get something really easy to eat and give on the run treats (I like weiner cut into TINY pieces) and learn to get that treat into your dog on the move. Easier with my size of dog than with a cocker I know. You can try things like putting a dollop of peanut butter on the end of a wooden spoon. You can keep the spoon out of sight in your right hand and shwoop it down in front of the dog's mouth to reward her. I know it sounds dorky but lots of OB people with little papillions and other toy breeds use this method and it works well.

Practice lots at home and build number of steps heeling gradually. Then practice on your driveway , in your yard and build up to more difficult places gradually as your dog shows you she's ready.

What do you do when your dog forges?

I like the method where the instant they get too far ahead, you mark the behavior with a phrase like "oh! tooo baaad" stop and get them back into heel position. When they're back in position and preferably looking at you, you say heel and off you go.
(Of course the first step before working on heeling is teaching them to get into heel position on cue. My cue is "get in" and was taught initially by luring with a treat and feeding in position) Obviously the dog doesn't get a treat for 'getting in' if it was forging that caused you to cue the behavior, so you can see why it's important to have that one down first.

The biggest thing I see people in beginning OB classes do poorly with heeling is they walk too slow and don't have good timing to reward the dog. Walking slowly is boring, sets the dog up to ignore you, forge and find something more interesting to do. If your timing is late you end up rewarding the dog for being out of heel position and it doesn't work well.
People get a bit overwhelmed and can't seem to walk, watch the dog, remember their marker phrase, click etc. I was no different starting out. I can barely walk and chew gum, so holding a leash, watching the dog and trying to click was too much for me :p I ditched the clicker and just learned to walk fast and talk nonstop to my dog telling him how great he was and shovel food in his mouth as we went and stopping and saying "too bad. get in" when he forged.

That's part of why practice at home is great. You can just relax talk to your dog the whole time she's in heel position you're saying "woohooo! look at YOU! GOOOD DOG!" etc and keeping the dogs interest. If you walk into a wall because you're looking at your dog nobody has to know :p

The other method I LOVE is called "choose to heel". It works well and is EASY PEASY and FUN. 'Choose to heel' is where you go someplace enclosed and preferably boring like your training facility at open matt time, an empty tennis court etc I used an outdoor hockey rink in summer. Any largish, emtyish room will do.
You start walking in a counter clockwise big circle around the room, say nothing to the dog, don't look at the dog, just leave the dog to explore and do what they want. You walk with a purpose like you're on a mission. Eventually your dog will go "what the heck is she doing?" and come over to investigate. Your left side is exposed, your right side is hopefully near a wall or barrier so the dog really only has your left side to approach. Don't look at the dog or say anything and the INSTANT the dog is in heel postion you CLICK and toss a treat away. The instant the dog is in heel position CLICK and toss the treat away so the dog has to leave your side to get it. Make the treat BIG, smelly and easy to find, like a hunk of cheese or meat. The dogs are usually VERY interested in coming back to get some more cheese and curious as to why you're walking around like a cray woman and flinging cheese:D So you keep walking and repeat - the instant they are in position you click and toss your cheese.

I love this one because you get the dog performing the desired behavior, which is really not that fun for dogs, with huge enthusiasm. They don't HAVE to heel they WANT to heel and it has become a fun game.
The only difficulty with choose to heel is scouting out a good location that is enclosed so that you can safely ignore your dog. If it's a boring place that makes the process faster too.

My dogs will come into heel position when we are on a hike when they are quite free to be off sniffing and loook up at me like "check me out. I'm in heel position. got anything for me?" I've gotten to the point with my bc where I'm saying "go play silly" because he keeps coming back to heel trying to get treats and show off. heh heh

edited for scary number of typos and spelling errors!
 
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MafiaPrincess

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#25
Wow, that was a hugely informative post, thank you so much. I actually have a tennis court across the street, and a lacrosse box. (Double the fun, lol). I like that last method because it's nothing like I've tried.. We may start there tomorrow. The wooden spoon an PB I saw in an advanced class that happened right after our puppy class, was kind of odd then when we were so new to training, Sounds like a good way now though, (if choosing to heel doesn't go too well or whatever).

That's a great starting point, thank you. I've been searching forums and such, but that explained it really well :)
 

IliamnasQuest

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#27
I've been showing in AKC rally (only kind in Alaska at this time) and I teach rally classes too, as well as competition obedience classes. Trick has one more leg to get her Rally Excellent title, and Khana has one leg in Rally Advanced.

Rally is a lot of fun and you can either use it just as rally or as a step to regular obedience (which is more my focus). While it includes moves that are not necessary for regular obedience, it allows you to use continual verbal praise and encouragement as well as judging you in a much more lenient way. People who are planning on going on to regular obedience will need to learn how to gradually phase out all the chatter and make their performance more exact.

Here are a couple of photos of Khana heeling in her very first rally competition (she earned a 98 and first place):





The heeling tips given by sam are very good. I would add that while heeling fast is definitely important, there's something to be said for teaching heeling one step at a time too. I teach my dogs attention FIRST so they know to look at me (www.kippsdogs.com/tips.html) and then I start one step at a time and reinforcing for continued attention with a single step. Then I gradually add on more and pick up the speed.

When I do this, I reward the dog while it is still standing and moving forward - and then I pause as the dog eats the treat before moving on. If you give a treat to a dog and continue to move forward, most dogs drop their heads in order to swallow the treat and you then have a break in attention and a lag. If you stop and allow the dog to eat the treat and glance back up, you're not going to teach the dog that walking with head down is okay. I also don't add in the sit at the halt for a long time. Sit is easy. Heeling is tougher. Forget the sit and don't worry about it until you have a dog that is heeling nicely.

I like the "choose to heel" concept but it helps if you've already done some stationary and slow heel work with the dog on your left so that the dog has some concept of heel position.

I don't find obedience boring at all - I find it challenging because your dog is required to do longer amounts of behavior with less feedback. This is something impressive - much more impressive to me than when you can chatter continuously to your dog. I enjoy rally because it changes from course to course and is interesting, but competition obedience is the true challenge to me. I know, I'm a glutton for punishment! *LOL*

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
.. 16 competition obedience titles on my dogs, including three CDX's and two UD's .. hopefully more in the near future!
.. 11 competition rally and agility titles .. and legs toward more rally titles now, hopefully to be completed in March at the next trials.
 

elegy

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#28
pashaw! I've seen video of your heelwork. You guys would do great in rally!
lol. only if i could do rally in a bubble!

the rally matches i've taken luce to have been "judged" in that a judge follows you around as would happen in a trial and writes down comments (positive and negative) on a sheet for you. you don't get a score, but you get feedback.

when i took luce to "rallypalooza" which was a huge match with 8 different courses, two of the runs i had were under the same judge. she had a hard time believing that both times were the same dog. luce was so out of control and inattentive for one and so focused for the other. story of my life. :rolleyes:

my one and only rally match photo



see those buckets they're using to hold the signs? luce has a really aggravating habit of making dives toward them and grabbing them with her front paws. she thinks it's a great way to spice things up.
 

adojrts

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#30
Wow this is awesome, some excellent advice on heeling etc. I just started a Novice Rally course, this week will be our 4th class and we love it!!! I have done a lot of different things with my dogs over the years and compete seriously in agility.....and I wish I had started Rally years ago. Petie's tail never stops wagging while in class or when training, he clearly loves it. I have never done formal ob. with any dog, but having said that my dogs do heel, sit/down etc and have excellent recalls but learning the 360's etc has been a blast and I was amazed at how fast (about 2 mins lol) that he learned it. I have already signed up for the next level to continue with our training.
I also look forward to competing in Rally which if all goes well, later this spring.
Take care
Lynn
 

uhmanda00

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#31
wow! this might be my favorite thread yet on chaz! :)

i have never competed in anything with my dogs before. last summer lucy, one of my golden retrievers, and i went to obedience classes and earned her CGC and TDI, both for therapy work... which we both love and enjoy doing.

i’ve been wanting to attend more obedience classes because i felt that we both really enjoyed them. i’d love to get her started in rally. i like the fact that you can praise your dog during the trial... and lucy would love that! :)

the facility that we went to over the summer for her CGC/TDI class doesn’t offer a rally class; therefore i need to research for another facility that offers a rally class.

i do not know too much about rally, and i was wondering what this CARO thing is that you all have been talking about??
 

uhmanda00

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#33
Thanks for the links! What are the main differences between AKC rally and APDT rally?? Other than only AKC registered dogs can compete in AKC, and any breed or mixbreed can compete in APDT. In your opinion, which is more fun?
 

sam

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#34
Thanks for the links! What are the main differences between AKC rally and APDT rally?? Other than only AKC registered dogs can compete in AKC, and any breed or mixbreed can compete in APDT. In your opinion, which is more fun?

Well all I know about AKC rally is what I've been told and read on their web site. (I live in Canada and own nonregistered dogs) I don't particularly like that you can double command in AKC rally. That makes no sense in any obedience event IMO. I wouldn't think it's fair to score two rounds the same if one person is using multiple commands and another isn't. I think it also encourages bad handling/ bad training.

I have really enjoyed APDT rally.
 

adojrts

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#36
Hi;
I went to our Rally class tonight and according to my instructor we are doing well. She said Petie and I should be ready to compete in CARO Novice in the first of March. Does anyone have any good websites on competing or handling, or any tips/advice for a first timer?? Also I have never competed in regular OB. so this is all new to us. But we are having a great time and really look forward to all our classes and to competing.

Thanks
Lynn
 

sam

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#37
I found it helpful to print the signs off the website and set courses in my yard or basement. It helps to know those signs really well so you don't have to read or think too much on course :p I bought cheap document covers and slid the signs into those to keep them clean- laminating was too expensive. I use buckets for pylons etc
Our judges are pretty crafty and do lots of fun stuff like marrying unlikely signs together, putting a fast pace right into a moving stand or a slow pace right through food bowls (I think only APDT has food bowl fig 8 tho) or a turn sign at the base of a jump. They also tend to make the courses really tight which I find tough with bigger or less accurate dogs.
I walk the course for the whole ten minutes I'm allowed and do it exactly as I would with whatever dog I'm working so I can better tell what spots might trip us up.
I try to watch a few people go and see if there are any trouble spots where all the dogs are sniffing so I can make sure I really have my dogs attention there etc
I use lots of tug and frisbee interspersed with warm up so my dogs stay nice and relaxed and don't sense if I'm a bit nervous.
Most of all I try to smile and have fun with my dog no matter what's going on- it helps cut my nerves and makes my dogs more likely to want to focus on me-- if I'm nervous, they are doing all those 'calming signals" like looking away from me etc and things can easily go down hill. You're allowed to talk to your dog and to use both hand signals and verbal cues - so do it.
Only other tip is make sure you know your rules - it's painful to NQ for something stupid like walking into the ring with a bait bag on or having a hand signal that looks like you're luring or using a verbal correction like "ah ah" by force of habit or forgetting about bonus exercises and rewarding your dog before you get to it etc

Very cute avatar btw:D if you're trialing in agility already you'll find lots of carry over.I find Rally easier and less stressful than agility.
 

adojrts

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#38
Sam thank you, those are the kinds of things that I am looking for. My instructor has already stress the point of the knowing the signs and the rules, she too suggested that I print out the signs and do my homework lol.
This course that I am taking now, rolls over into the next level of Novice. Meaning now that we are familiar with the signs and exercises from this course, the next course focuses on perfecting the exercises and doing courses, plus always reviewing the rules. As we get closer to the trial (or at anytime, she or I feels we need it), I'll book in a couple of private lessons.
I agree that our agility training and competing will benefit us in Rally, and I expect the Rally training to benefit our agility. Luckily for me, I can remember courses and can do all the visual training and preparing that is needed to run a clean flowing course (lol usually). One thing that I am hoping that Rally does for me, is help me to communicate MORE with my dog, my one huge fault in running agility is often not giving him ENOUGH info and directionals etc. We have learned that Petie is a very visual dog, he responds much better to a visual than to any verbal cue, and although we constantly work on body language, I really need to be better at it for him.
Btw, thanks, I love that pic of Petie too!!
Take care
Lynn
 

elegy

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#39
i'm more familiar with akc rally than apdt (just because that's what's taught around here), but i think they're largely the same. there are some differences in signs and in scoring, and personally i think apdt is harder, but the idea is the same, and both are lots of fun.

luce has her ILP number (she's an imitation amstaff i guess) so she can compete in AKC trials.
 

uhmanda00

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#40
Alrighty, well I called around searching for Rally classes in my area. I called 15 different places. NONE of them offered Rally classes. Obviously it isn't popular here at all... some people didn't have a clue what I meant when I asked, "do you offer Rally-Obedience classes?" I'm interested in this place called Oklahoma City Obedience Training Club. Here's their website: www.ocotc.org I've heard positive things about them, they are non-profit, classes are held at the Oklahoma Armoury, started in 1952, $40 for a 9 week course [amazingly cheap], and I've talked to the president of the club before and she seems very friendly and helpful. The only thing holding me back is my mom says the location of the place is where the drive-by-shootings occur in OKC. Also, the Rally class is at 9PM to 10PM, and she wouldn't want me going down there at all, much less at night [I’d probably drive myself].

I e-mailed the instructor at Full Circle Obedience School, which is where I took Lucy last summer to get her CGC and TDI. Website: www.721stay.com She doesn't offer a Rally class, but I was hoping she could refer me to someone. I haven’t heard back from her yet, but I bet she will refer me to OCOTC.

This is really disappointing though, what should I do now?? I really want to get her involved in Rally.
 

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