Physically positioning dogs?

[pinkspore]

The trainer I talked to today suggested working on Uly's popup down by physically pushing him back into position. I don't normally physically position dogs because it either doesn't work (I have no idea how many times it takes Ru to stay sitting after being repositioned, but there is a finite amount of time I am willing to spend investigating this) or stresses the dog to much.

Back when we did obedience at least once a week, I had more than one instructor try physically repositioning Brisbane only to have him completely shut down. "If he breaks his stay you need to take him back and force him into a sit," followed by Brisbane rolling onto his back with his tail tucked and snapping when they attempted to replace him again.

Do you physically reposition your dogs when they break a sit or down?

 

[Southpaw]

It wouldn't be my first reaction. I'd reexamine what's actually happening - breaking a stay, why? Do I need to back up my training? If they break a stay I will bring them back to where I left them, and just ask them for the behavior again amd do something differently so they don't break next time.

My dogs initially would always popup from downs pretty much immediately. I knew this of them, so once I asked for the down, I would continually reward between their feet to keep them down. Eventually they learn it's pretty awesome to stay there, and then I work on being able to back off on the rewards and actually move away from them etc. Although honestly, we're not competing so if my dogs are more comfortable sitting vs. Lying down... I'm not going to get upset if they pop up into a sit, if my goal is really just that they're staying in place.

 

[BostonBanker]

For broken stays, nope. I do a ton of physical positioning/handling/roughing up with Gusto while training, because he has weird issues about touch and I turn it into a game that gives rewards. But it's not about training the position, just an interaction that occurs during training. If that makes sense.

I don't think I've ever tried positioning Meg, but I can't imagine she'd do well with it. Once upon a time, she probably would have peed if I'd tried. Now she'd just walk away and be done the game.

Gusto might have snapped when he was younger; now he'd just come flying back at me in play, because that's our game.

 

[lancerandrara]

It depends on the individual dog's temperament, in my experience... hardier dogs with a thick skin can take physical positioning and may actually learn faster than using directing methods (again, depending on the dog). A better trainer can get a sense of a dog's sensitivity and limit and what methods they might be okay with working.

Brisbane is like Rara though- she will shut down if there's too much pushing butts and forced stays going on, or even just commands SPOKEN too forcibly. :s Lancer also doesn't learn with forced position and will likely get frustrated. I taught my old hardy pekingese all her commands through this physical positioning though- and she took it all very positively and learned much faster than without.

 

[Doberluv]

I don't like physically pushing down on a dog's back to get him to lie down. A) It could cause pain. B) The dog has an opposition reflex that sometimes will kick into action and he'll push against you. C) It doesn't teach the dog to figure it out on his own at all. It's just not very effective.

I think if you use a clicker or a marker word, such as "Yesssss!" the second he lies down or even part way down and follow immediately with a very tasty tid bit, he'll learn just fine. What I'd suggest are a couple of things. One, you can capture the down (or the sit or pretty much anything) when he happens to lie down on his own. Mark it and reinforce it a second before he's down.

Another way is to sit down with him on the floor and make a little bridge by putting your knees up and your feet down. Coax him under and then reward him. Make it a game. Don't bribe. Only furnish the treat AFTER he gets down in there and sort of lies down and then withhold the reward and he'll try harder and perhaps lie down all the way. Make sure to mark it when he's where you want him, then reward.

Another way is to lure him down with a treat, kind of like when you start teaching a sit. But don't lure for more than about 3 reps. You don't want that treat to become part of the cue or have him become dependent on it. After a few reps, use an empty hand, then reward with your other hand which holds the treat.

Once he's getting onto it and offering the behavior, that's when you add your cue simultaneously when he does it. Don't try to elicit with the cue until he's made the association between the cue and the behavior. When you think he has, you can try cuing him, "Down." But if he doesn't do it, don't keep cuing him. Go back to just trying to get the behavior or capturing it and using your cue while he's doing it for a while more.

Placement cues are a good thing to learn too...like when you want him to move over if he's on the couch with you or you want him to get in the car. Using your own power to manipulate his body parts is like taking a kid's hand and making him put the puzzle pieces together. He doesn't get to use his own head. He doesn't learn as well HOW to learn.

I'd find another trainer.

 

[sassafras]

It depends on the specific dog and context for me, usually not though. (To clarify, when I use the word "replace" like in the other thread when I'm talking about replacing my dogs in a stay if they break, I don't mean I'm literally physically replacing or positioning them.)

Not so much anymore these days, more when he was younger, but Squash's mind occasionally gets lost in a sort of feedback loop in Overstimulated Land and a gentle physical placement can be like a "reset button" for him. My others generally are a bit too soft for it to be useful.

I personally wouldn't be a fan of physically positioning or manipulating a dog who had bitten me in the past.

 

[sassafras]

I'll add, too, that if I'm having trouble with duration in a position - in this case, staying in a down - I am very generous with rapid-fire rewarding in position for a good long time. I don't mean a long time like, five minutes at once. I mean over a lot of training sessions before I start to reduce my rate of reinforcement (and then very gradually).

 

[Doberluv]

Oh, for breaking a stay...also my answer is no. First, if you're very careful to reinforce quickly and frequently as he's staying with you right in front of him at first, he'll not likely break the stay in the first place. If he does, just circle him around and start another one. Be sure to use a release word, like "free" or "release" or "okay." You want to get that in there quickly before he breaks the stay and let him get up. He can learn that he's to stay until he hears that release word.

Start teaching just duration or distance, not both together. With distance, it's one foot away and right away spring forward to reinforce. Then two feet, then three and so on. If he breaks it, you've asked too much too soon. Then add distractions later as he's getting those two parts. Remember, frequent, one after the other with the tiny treats as he's sitting and staying. Don't ask for too much too soon. Then release...coax him out of the position.

Later, practice using other words besides your release word to make sure you get that release word on stimulus control. In other words, any other word besides your release word mustn't make him break the stay.

Be sure to vary your position too in relation to the dog as you're teaching these types of things so your position isn't part of the cue. So, stand sideways one time, facing him, turn the other way, walk a few steps to each side...but only when he's gotten the previous tasks pretty well understood. But don't wait too long. Don't wait until he's been doing something really well for too long or he can get stuck in that and have a hard time moving on.

 

[BostonBullMama]

I've never pushed my dog into a position.... I've seen people try it with Toby though. They push on his bum to get him to sit so they can pet him and I'm sitting there like... what are you doing? stop pushing on my dog....

 

[Slick]

I have done it a few times, but only during Leo's teenage phase in a very specific context and only for the Sit command. Basically, there have been two or three times where Leo very calculatingly chose not to sit in a context where I was very confident he was choosing to disobey, as opposed to being too distracted. In these cases, a gentle push on the bum basically is saying "And you will sit when I ask whether you want to or not".

That being said, I wouldn't ever train it that way initially, or push him down in a context where the command has not been proofed.
Does not happen very often, but it was effective in creating a rock solid sit anytime.

I have never used it for a stay or down command though.

 

[mrose_s]

I think there can be a lot of benefits to working with compulsion when done properly. So long as the dog is worked through the exercise in the right way.

Quinn originally learnt everything through luring but after I learnt about guidance techniques, I went back and taught her how to turn of the pressure being physically guided into a sit, drop or stand.
It helped her build a lot of confidence when getting her used to being handled by new people.

I wouldn't introduce a dog to it for the first time by pushing a dog not familiar with it back into position to proof an excercise, especially with a dog that lacks so much confidence. But I do think there are lot of benefits to teaching a dog about physical pressure.

One of my biggest critiques of modern ownership and some modern training would be the total hands off approach so many people take. Through our pet dog training school we teach virtually all our obedience through physical guidance to get the dogs used to being handled.
Guess what, the dog has to go to the vet, the groomer, get handled etc. I'd rather teach the dog about how to work through stress of physical handling in a place where I can end the activity with fun and games.

Physical guidance alone may not fix your issues with the stay - but I think there could be benefits to teaching him how to work through it.

 

[Kat09Tails]

I have used it to help a dog get past a mental block on things like not being able to figure out how to navigate stairs in a sane manner, a dog feeling that a certain material must be made of lava, or a dog that liked to launch itself like it was dockdiving out any open door. It's not my first go to - no. I've never had or seen much luck in physically manipulating dogs through simple tricks - especially as a foundation to something else.

 

[BostonBanker]

One of my biggest critiques of modern ownership and some modern training would be the total hands off approach so many people take. Through our pet dog training school we teach virtually all our obedience through physical guidance to get the dogs used to being handled.
Guess what, the dog has to go to the vet, the groomer, get handled etc. I'd rather teach the dog about how to work through stress of physical handling in a place where I can end the activity with fun and games.

I agree strongly with teaching dogs to tolerate physical handling; I just choose to do it outside of training other behaviors. I don't find training that way fun for me, and it doesn't seem to produce the kind of dog I enjoy working with.

If I had a dog who was popping up constantly from a down, I'd first try the 300 peck method. Nice, very systematic rewarding system that works great for my brain (and keeps me from asking for too much, too soon). With a dog like Gusto, I might shape a second part to the down, like putting his chin on the ground (thus requiring him to stay in the down longer), but if I remember from previous posts, Uly has had trouble with shaping.

 

[Red.Apricot]

I agree strongly with teaching dogs to tolerate physical handling; I just choose to do it outside of training other behaviors. I don't find training that way fun for me, and it doesn't seem to produce the kind of dog I enjoy working with.

If I had a dog who was popping up constantly from a down, I'd first try the 300 peck method. Nice, very systematic rewarding system that works great for my brain (and keeps me from asking for too much, too soon). With a dog like Gusto, I might shape a second part to the down, like putting his chin on the ground (thus requiring him to stay in the down longer), but if I remember from previous posts, Uly has had trouble with shaping.

All of this, but especially the 300 peck method. It worked really well for me and Elsie, because it's so rigidly systematic. I started it after she got her CD, and she didn't break a sit or a down in the ring while we worked on her CDX.

I also have rewarded Elsie heavily for putting her chin on the ground (I call it her polar bear on an ice flow impression).

 

[Dekka]

I have gently repositioned a dog a time or two. I don't think its the end of the world. I wouldn't want someone the dog didn't know doing it! But with Kaiden I found that gently putting him back up in a sit worked better than anything else I tried for a bit.

I think it only works for the right dog. Soft enough they would rather avoid being repositioned but not so soft it is highly aversive. Dekka wouldn't care and would likely just learn to wait for me to put her where I wanted too if she wasn't terribly interested in doing it herself.

However:

One of my biggest critiques of modern ownership and some modern training would be the total hands off approach so many people take. Through our pet dog training school we teach virtually all our obedience through physical guidance to get the dogs used to being handled.
Guess what, the dog has to go to the vet, the groomer, get handled etc. I'd rather teach the dog about how to work through stress of physical handling in a place where I can end the activity with fun and games.

Most puppy classes I have been involved in do a lot of handling but not in a training tool context. Why not teach the dog to think and respond vs wait to be modeled? And teach the dog to love all over handling and things like collar grabs?

Dekka has never been taught by hands on stuff that I can remember but I was just mentioning today how good she is to be handled by humans. Vets and children can pretty much do what ever. (except pick her up when tired, that will get a snarl) You can pull on her feet, lift up her gums, grab her around the chest etc.

I would hazard its 'safer' to train a dog to love handling outside of using it as a training tool. Soft dogs (like the whippets I had) would not have learnt very well by hands on modeling but they did learn to tolerate if not love all sorts of handling. If I had used it has a training method it not only likely would have made them less enthusiastic students but also make them less thrilled to be handled.