Obedience vs. Rally
- Thread starter Taqroy
- Start date
Guys, don't be too hard on Danefield. Until you have lived in the deep south, it is impossible to even imagine what we see on a daily basis here. Living here can put a very sour taste in our mouths when it comes to intact dogs, especially if you are involved in rescue.
However, thanks to the wonderful world of the internet, I've come to the point where I will probably keep any male dog I get (that's not from a shelter) intact, at least until they are fully grown and developed.
But, I can see why shelters spay/neuter everthing that leaves. Ever since we adopted that rule, we have seen a decrease in the number of puppies we kill.
However, thanks to the wonderful world of the internet, I've come to the point where I will probably keep any male dog I get (that's not from a shelter) intact, at least until they are fully grown and developed.
But, I can see why shelters spay/neuter everthing that leaves. Ever since we adopted that rule, we have seen a decrease in the number of puppies we kill.
It's upsetting when someone can just disregard the literal life saving that rescues offer and thrash at "them" as a whole because some do not always kill every dog that is not rock solid.
I for one have worked my ass off and been so broke I have had my energy turned off because I knew these rescue dogs were worth it. I take offense, just like many, when people nullify the importance on a grass roots level of rescue and the sheer numbers that we face when doing so.
I suppose the question for those proclaiming the horror in suggestions of spay and neuters would be: Do you believe all dogs should remain intact or just yours? Why?
Also, some are very forceful in their responses, aggressive in their words. A discussion doesn't need to feel like a full on assault, I believe the semantics are what make and break the line between discussion and argument, something to think about.
I for one have worked my ass off and been so broke I have had my energy turned off because I knew these rescue dogs were worth it. I take offense, just like many, when people nullify the importance on a grass roots level of rescue and the sheer numbers that we face when doing so.
I suppose the question for those proclaiming the horror in suggestions of spay and neuters would be: Do you believe all dogs should remain intact or just yours? Why?
Also, some are very forceful in their responses, aggressive in their words. A discussion doesn't need to feel like a full on assault, I believe the semantics are what make and break the line between discussion and argument, something to think about.
What I take offense to is broad decrees about who and who shouldn't be allowed to remain intact.
I think any owner who decides to keep their dog intact should be allowed to do so just like I believe any owner who would choose to alter their dogs should be allowed to. It's not for me to decide for others just like it isn't for them to decide for me and mine.
I think any owner who decides to keep their dog intact should be allowed to do so just like I believe any owner who would choose to alter their dogs should be allowed to. It's not for me to decide for others just like it isn't for them to decide for me and mine.
I choose to alter all of my rescue dogs prior to placement. I make the choice for those who adopt from me and I believe almost all animals adopted from shelters and or rescues should be altered with minimal exceptions.
I also have no need, nor desire, nor honestly understanding why I should keep any of my rescue residents intact.
I don't think I am comfortable with a ruling of altering however I do wish I could enforce a ruling of those that even consider breeding should have to spend a fair amount of time in rescue and experience the real reason why people break down and cry when these conversations come up. We've seen the ugly side of the general population and their desire to both keep a dog intact "just cause" and their desire to breed their dogs "because they're worthy". It puts your views at an angle to say the very least.
That all said, I happily encourage all of my clients to spay and neuter their pets.
I also have no need, nor desire, nor honestly understanding why I should keep any of my rescue residents intact.
I don't think I am comfortable with a ruling of altering however I do wish I could enforce a ruling of those that even consider breeding should have to spend a fair amount of time in rescue and experience the real reason why people break down and cry when these conversations come up. We've seen the ugly side of the general population and their desire to both keep a dog intact "just cause" and their desire to breed their dogs "because they're worthy". It puts your views at an angle to say the very least.
That all said, I happily encourage all of my clients to spay and neuter their pets.
I don't think the bolded is exactly what Dekka meant. I think she was just saying that even if YOU as an individual are perfectly capable of making sure your dog isn't bred, that the "general public" isn't necessarily capable, so in the case of a shelter it makes more sense to them to go ahead and neuter the animals they adopt out. That's what she means about catering to the lowest common denominator... just that there are lots of people who walk into a shelter without knowing what they are getting into, without planning on putting the time and energy into dogs that most of us here on the forum do, and certainly without thinking about "what lengths am I willing to go to so as to prevent my dog from reproducing?"
Kinda like how bags of peanuts have warnings that say "this product contains peanuts." LOL.
As to selfishness and elitism and such - if you're still surprised by it, it just means you haven't become desensitized to it around here yet, unfortunately... don't take it personally. That's just kinda how the majority of Chazhound rolls.
Kinda like how bags of peanuts have warnings that say "this product contains peanuts." LOL.
As to selfishness and elitism and such - if you're still surprised by it, it just means you haven't become desensitized to it around here yet, unfortunately... don't take it personally. That's just kinda how the majority of Chazhound rolls.
I believe this thread just took a turn down drama lane.
I can certainly see why rescues spay and neuter the animals they adopt out. and I can certainly see why some people get their dogs fixed. Why does that mean I have to be like everyone else?
Why do I have to believe like you do? Why is it that believing that dogs have parts for a reason, and not subjecting them to a surgery of convenience is in their best interest put me in the "elitist" catagory? or anyone else for that matter?
It's work to keep intact dogs. It doesn't seem like it to me, they are steps I just take in normal life, but to others..... They think i'm crazy half the time. From what I feed, to what I train, to what we go do, to what I put up with and do a few times a year with in heat bitches, it's far more than any of them want to, or are willing to do. Does that mean I can't keep dogs like I do because someone else can't live that way??
and since when did a rescue or become an authority on anything dog? I think some do great things, with lots of well intentioned people, but I certainly have never looked to a rescue org for advice on how to raise my animals.
I can certainly see why rescues spay and neuter the animals they adopt out. and I can certainly see why some people get their dogs fixed. Why does that mean I have to be like everyone else?
Why do I have to believe like you do? Why is it that believing that dogs have parts for a reason, and not subjecting them to a surgery of convenience is in their best interest put me in the "elitist" catagory? or anyone else for that matter?
It's work to keep intact dogs. It doesn't seem like it to me, they are steps I just take in normal life, but to others..... They think i'm crazy half the time. From what I feed, to what I train, to what we go do, to what I put up with and do a few times a year with in heat bitches, it's far more than any of them want to, or are willing to do. Does that mean I can't keep dogs like I do because someone else can't live that way??
and since when did a rescue or become an authority on anything dog? I think some do great things, with lots of well intentioned people, but I certainly have never looked to a rescue org for advice on how to raise my animals.
The explanation is easy: Animal Rights Movement
Although, it isn't true that no shelters/pound will adopt out intact dogs. Most don't but some do.
As unfortunate as the animal culture of the deep south is, it honestly doesn't have much to do with me and my dogs.
This seems a bit like ferret people telling me I must give my ferrets rabies vaccines because I can't guarantee a bat with rabies won't get into my house, get into my ferret room and attack my ferrets. And if that happens, my ferrets will die! Yeah...I guess there is that...but umm...to be honest they're much more likely to have a reaction to a rabies vaccine than be bitten by a rabid animal in my home. As has been brought up here already, we don't muzzle all dogs just because they could be put into an unfortunate situation that causes them to bite.
I don't think AKC considers performance events to be a test of breed worthiness. If they did, mixes, ILPs and limited registration dogs wouldn't be allowed to compete in them.
But average pet owners aren't competing with their dogs in performance events.
I totally agree with this. The idea of a closed stud book is turning out to be a disaster for lower number breeds. I am a fan of purebred dogs and breeding dogs and persevering breeds. I think letting AR propaganda and PC influenced clubs make breeding choices is a problem though.
Although, it isn't true that no shelters/pound will adopt out intact dogs. Most don't but some do.
As unfortunate as the animal culture of the deep south is, it honestly doesn't have much to do with me and my dogs.
This seems a bit like ferret people telling me I must give my ferrets rabies vaccines because I can't guarantee a bat with rabies won't get into my house, get into my ferret room and attack my ferrets. And if that happens, my ferrets will die! Yeah...I guess there is that...but umm...to be honest they're much more likely to have a reaction to a rabies vaccine than be bitten by a rabid animal in my home. As has been brought up here already, we don't muzzle all dogs just because they could be put into an unfortunate situation that causes them to bite.
I don't think AKC considers performance events to be a test of breed worthiness. If they did, mixes, ILPs and limited registration dogs wouldn't be allowed to compete in them.
But average pet owners aren't competing with their dogs in performance events.
I totally agree with this. The idea of a closed stud book is turning out to be a disaster for lower number breeds. I am a fan of purebred dogs and breeding dogs and persevering breeds. I think letting AR propaganda and PC influenced clubs make breeding choices is a problem though.
THANK YOU. :hail::hail::hail:
I am glad that a rescue pulled my roommate's dog off the kill list. He is NOT "100% rock solid" (which I NEVER said, by the way), but he is a nice dog and a nice companion, and while I don't blame the kill shelter for putting him on the list, I'm glad a private rescue had the means to help.
That said, I'm not looking to them for opinions on how to raise or keep dogs. For one thing, their goals for dogs and my goals for dogs are very different.
I am glad that a rescue pulled my roommate's dog off the kill list. He is NOT "100% rock solid" (which I NEVER said, by the way), but he is a nice dog and a nice companion, and while I don't blame the kill shelter for putting him on the list, I'm glad a private rescue had the means to help.
That said, I'm not looking to them for opinions on how to raise or keep dogs. For one thing, their goals for dogs and my goals for dogs are very different.
Yeah, I see that now, went back and re-read and I understand what she's saying. Sorry Dekka.
LOL I think you're right.
Its pretty offensive as someone very active in rescue to hear that rescues have no clue about dogs. MAGDRL is a wonderful rescue, and their spay neuter policy is not just something they throw together without thought. And wow, to suggest the AR agenda has ANYTHING to do with our decision making... Just wow... Them there's fighting words.
Its also pretty offensive to have the troubles we face here so cavalierly dismissed. Its BRUTAL, seriously. And I don't see anyone volunteering to take on the umpteen litters or adults from those litters that get PTS by the thousands every day for no reason other than there simply aren't enough people willing to take them, not enough room at the inn.
I will advocate spay neuter for pets 100% of the way. And BTW, NO, I'm NOT not saying it should be legislated, but encouraged by vets, trainers, whoever people will listen to.
LOL I think you're right.
Its pretty offensive as someone very active in rescue to hear that rescues have no clue about dogs. MAGDRL is a wonderful rescue, and their spay neuter policy is not just something they throw together without thought. And wow, to suggest the AR agenda has ANYTHING to do with our decision making... Just wow... Them there's fighting words.
Its also pretty offensive to have the troubles we face here so cavalierly dismissed. Its BRUTAL, seriously. And I don't see anyone volunteering to take on the umpteen litters or adults from those litters that get PTS by the thousands every day for no reason other than there simply aren't enough people willing to take them, not enough room at the inn.
I will advocate spay neuter for pets 100% of the way. And BTW, NO, I'm NOT not saying it should be legislated, but encouraged by vets, trainers, whoever people will listen to.
And I would rather people be given unbiased information and allowed to come to their decision not by ignorance of the risks and benefits but rather because they feel it's what's best for them and their dogs.
I don't like people in positions of authority being expected to withhold information and lie to the masses for "the people's own good".
I don't like people in positions of authority being expected to withhold information and lie to the masses for "the people's own good".
The AR agenda is responsible for lots of decision making, many times unbeknownst to the decision makers. I don't think Aleron was suggesting that rescues are necessarily pro-animal rights, but the reality is that MUCH of our way of thinking about animals is heavily influenced by animal rights campaigns, like it or not.
I don't believe most of us who do encourage altering pets are withholding nor do I believe we are ignorant. I have read all the studies passed around and I am a firm believer that keeping a dog intact until maturity is the best chance for the body to grow to it's potential. I own two of each gender in each state and have had many more. That said I believe the lack of breeding benefits out weigh a bitchy looking male in the average home and will continue to encourage my clients.
Okay, whatever.
You guys go about your merry way, close your eyes to what the rest of us deal with, and pass jugement on anyone who doesn't think like you do. I'm done. SOOOO not interested in another one of these Chaz attack the non-clique member threads.
This is not an internet game to me okay? Its not a fun diversion to see who I can **** off on chaz today and what drama I can stirr up. Its real for me. I live it every day. So you guys have fun with your self righteous little game of who's righter. I'm off to live in the real world where puppies can't even find a home and get stuck with heart sticks which are still legal.
You guys go about your merry way, close your eyes to what the rest of us deal with, and pass jugement on anyone who doesn't think like you do. I'm done. SOOOO not interested in another one of these Chaz attack the non-clique member threads.
This is not an internet game to me okay? Its not a fun diversion to see who I can **** off on chaz today and what drama I can stirr up. Its real for me. I live it every day. So you guys have fun with your self righteous little game of who's righter. I'm off to live in the real world where puppies can't even find a home and get stuck with heart sticks which are still legal.