Obedience vs. Rally

[Dekka]

See and I find obedience easier over all. Yes you are in the ring longer but the dog isn't ON the whole time. When moving and setting up from one exercise to another you can chat with your dog just like in rally.

And in rally (at least the rally I do) you can't keep re cuing something and not loose marks. You can say heel heel heel, IF your dog is still in heel. If your dog is out of heel and you cue heel heel heel you get deducted each time and eventually an NQ. Though CARO has harder rules than CKC/AKC and I believe some trickier exercises..

 

[Shai]

And in rally (at least the rally I do) you can't keep re cuing something and not loose marks. You can say heel heel heel, IF your dog is still in heel. If your dog is out of heel and you cue heel heel heel you get deducted each time and eventually an NQ. Though CARO has harder rules than CKC/AKC and I believe some trickier exercises..

APDT is like that too, to a certain extent. You can say things like "good!" but if you re-cue an exercise, 3 pts. Again? Another three points. Pretty soon you're NQ'd. I've only done APDT rally but a friend of mine does UKC, AKC, and APDT and has earned top titles in all three, and says APDT is the most challenging of the three, at least partially because of that one-cue requirement.

 

[Emily]

APDT is like that too, to a certain extent. You can say things like "good!" but if you re-cue an exercise, 3 pts. Again? Another three points. Pretty soon you're NQ'd. I've only done APDT rally but a friend of mine does UKC, AKC, and APDT and has earned top titles in all three, and says APDT is the most challenging of the three, at least partially because of that one-cue requirement.

Most challenging and most fun, IME! I'm a big fan of APDT Rally.

 

[Dekka]

That makes sense, I think CARO was orginally modelled after APDT. Does it have things like stand for exam?

 

[Shai]

Yeah APDT rally was fun Kim, Webby and I did it for a year...it's a gateway drug. I had no interest in competing in any sport and was talked into giving APDT rally a try...next thing I know they both have COEs for all three levels, multiple perfect scores, their ARCHX titles, and are nationally ranked...lol. Gateway drug. Seriously.

Compared to agility I find rally boring and we don't have APDT where I live now so we don't do it anymore. But the trials, the people, etc. were a blast.

Kim and Web have also done UKC obedience, and Mira has done AKC obedience -- they all have novice titles mostly with scores in the low-mid 190s (I think the lowest we've gone is 189?). Kim & Webby earned their U-CDs with 3 straight runs, Mira took 4 because an errant dog ran her over during the group exercises at her first show. Webby got his first UCDX leg earlier this year with a 193 but I've been too distracted with moving and agility to pursue it farther.

Basically for me, I kind of go with what I think adds value. With three dogs of competition age, I have to prioritize where my entry money goes.* So agility is my priority (because I love it) and I tend to think obedience compliments agility better than rally in terms of showing a diverse skill set. And I think I've just lost interest in rally, to be honest. It was a great starter but it sort of bores me to death now :s



*Just taking into account the Big Three...my money will be going to hunt tests and conformation all too soon...

 

[Shai]

That makes sense, I think CARO was orginally modelled after APDT. Does it have things like stand for exam?

Yeah, APDT has a stand for exam exercise. It's considered a "bonus" exercise though IIRC.

 

[Dekka]

Ah its in most of the advanced classes I see.

And I agree Rally and obedience pale when it comes to agility.

I figure its something the dogs and I can do when they get old lol.

 

[Shai]

I think it shows up in Level 1 (beginner) for APDT but again, IIRC

 

[Dekka]

Ya its off leash and novice is on leash so it doesn't show up till adv in CARO.

 

[Shai]

Looked it up and found this:

"The Level 2 Stand for Exam bonus exercise has been replaced with a Stand for Distraction exercise (the judge walks around the dog, but does not do an exam) and this has been moved to Level 3. In its place, the Level 3 distraction recall Bonus Exercise has been moved to Level 2."
http://frontandfinish.com/2011/02/10/apdt-and-me/

So I guess they have made some rule changes since I played. I was wrong about the level though -- what you said made sense: Level 1 in APDT is on leash as well so it would follow that the stand for exam would be Level 2 or 3.

 

[Dekka]

Thats sad they changed it. It was a good and IMO realistic exercise, to stand still whilst petted.

 

[Shai]

Yep I agree. And it was a bonus exercise which makes the change even more bizarre...if you/your dog really weren't comfortable with it, as long as you did well in the rest of the course you could "pass" on that exercise. You wouldn't place, but you'd potentially still Q.

 

[Aleron]

Thats sad they changed it. It was a good and IMO realistic exercise, to stand still whilst petted.

I think there's a good number of people who like obedience but do only Rally because their dog won't tolerate a stand for exam.

APDT is like that too, to a certain extent. You can say things like "good!" but if you re-cue an exercise, 3 pts. Again? Another three points. Pretty soon you're NQ'd. I've only done APDT rally but a friend of mine does UKC, AKC, and APDT and has earned top titles in all three, and says APDT is the most challenging of the three, at least partially because of that one-cue requirement.

But you can also use food rewards in the ring. That makes it quite a bit easier in terms of the dog not having to work for prolonged periods of time with no reward.

See and I find obedience easier over all. Yes you are in the ring longer but the dog isn't ON the whole time. When moving and setting up from one exercise to another you can chat with your dog just like in rally.

And in rally (at least the rally I do) you can't keep re cuing something and not loose marks. You can say heel heel heel, IF your dog is still in heel. If your dog is out of heel and you cue heel heel heel you get deducted each time and eventually an NQ. Though CARO has harder rules than CKC/AKC and I believe some trickier exercises..

IME most people's dogs have a hard time with competition obedience because of the duration they have to go without rewards or alternatively, without corrections or nagging or extra cues. If people could chat to their dogs during heeling to encourage them to be attentive and keep them in position, competition obedience would be considerably easier for most people. If you could give food rewards between exercises in competition obedience, we'd probably see a lot more high scoring dogs.

I see people all the time who have breezed through Rally, good scores, placements, etc and can not get out of Novice Obedience. I personally have never known a dog who did really well in competition obedience but couldn't get through Rally Novice (any venue). Someone I know who has done a lot of APDT Rally and has done well recently entered her dog in AKC Beginner Novice and commented on how hard it was. Her dog is well trained and works well but she lost quite a few points on handler errors that aren't considered errors in Rally.

I still think concentrating on my dog and on the signs is what makes Rally hard LOL

 

[Danefied]

I still think concentrating on my dog and on the signs is what makes Rally hard LOL

Its definitely what makes it hard for me!

And I do agree that for the most part, if you can do novice Obedience, you can do Rally Novice yet the same is not true reversed.

 

[Dekka]

Aleron> that is why I said for me. The first dog sport I ever got involved with was obedience. I do not talk to my dogs when training a heel. So its never a problem when I don't talk in competition. If your dog can't heel a short novice pattern (and its usually an up, across, back with some sits turns and about turn) with out encouragement then IMO you shouldn't even be entering Rally. Now of course loads of people do. Bounce might not be able to do a novice obed heeling pattern, but then I wouldn't enter her in rally either.

Rally requires a lot longer a heel with out reward, its continuous with no break. Then again I tend to trial JRTs who find "yay good dog" talk totally superfluous lol. Maybe if I had dogs who cared if I gave them verbal praise it would be a different story.

 

[Shai]

But you can also use food rewards in the ring. That makes it quite a bit easier in terms of the dog not having to work for prolonged periods of time with no reward.

Yep, depends on the dog. Takes a smart dog no time at all to figure out there's only certain exercises that may earn food so you can just as easily end up with shoddy heeling etc. if you don't pay attention to what you are doing. Not discounting the benefit, just saying.

 

[Dekka]

Also you can only use food for the first while, and as Shai says you can only use it in specific places. You can't just reward your dog because they did an excellent sit, or a great finish. Once you move up the levels you cannot use food anymore.

 

[Taqroy]

I love this thread! I really like seeing all the different viewpoints.

 

[Aleron]

Its definitely what makes it hard for me!

And I do agree that for the most part, if you can do novice Obedience, you can do Rally Novice yet the same is not true reversed.

Glad I'm not alone in that! It is so much easier to just follow the judges directions. My dogs are fine at Rally, they just need a handler who multitasks better

Aleron> that is why I said for me. The first dog sport I ever got involved with was obedience. I do not talk to my dogs when training a heel. So its never a problem when I don't talk in competition. If your dog can't heel a short novice pattern (and its usually an up, across, back with some sits turns and about turn) with out encouragement then IMO you shouldn't even be entering Rally. Now of course loads of people do. Bounce might not be able to do a novice obed heeling pattern, but then I wouldn't enter her in rally either..

I think the fact that it's continuous is what makes it easier. Same reason it's easier to wean agility dogs off of rewards in the ring - it's fast paced and short duration.

My dogs heel just fine, I'm talking more about what I have seen other people struggle with overall.

Also you can only use food for the first while, and as Shai says you can only use it in specific places. You can't just reward your dog because they did an excellent sit, or a great finish. Once you move up the levels you cannot use food anymore.

APDT's allowing food in the ring has just never seemed quite right to me, especially in Rally where you can praise and talk to your dog so much. I'm not sure if I'd do APDT Rally anyway because I don't like their extra charge for intact dogs thing. There are trials very close to me a few times a year and I've gone back and forth about it but really, I'm probably involved in too many dogsports already so it's just as well LOL

 

[Dekka]

Thats weird CARO has no extra fees for intact dogs. That would make me stop trailing that venue for sure! Praise is only valuable if your dog finds it so though. Its not a huge advantage if you are working with terriers lol.

LOL this is why I have said my dogs and I find obed easiest. They do great for short bursts like obedience and agility. The long focus of a long and tight rally course is harder for us. Not too hard obviously. But harder than teaching a good heel. I didn't mean to imply you didn't have a good heel, just saying that you shouldnt' need a food or praise to do a very simple heel pattern. The ability to talk to my dog doesn't make rally easier, I don't talk to them when working anyway.