new to the forum not new to breeding

poacher

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#1
hi all i thank you for welcoming me to this forum. I've been reading a few posts and must say very interesting what some peoples views are about breeding and different dog breeds. Alittle about myself I live in northern canada I live on a 3000 acre working farm which i own and work, I have alittle experience in dog breeding been doing it for over 20 years, have an education in genetics which i use and practice on a daily basis here on the farm. But really this is not why i'm here, I'm here because I am developing a new breed of dog yes new breed I know some people will ask why and what the purpose is well it's the same reason and purpose why people been doing for hundreds even thousands of years for a better dog to suit a purpose, what ever that is. From louis doberman to the romans man always tried to make their dogs alittle better or different from crossing different types of dogs and breeding them true to type and their standard. This i understand and well educated on, so here I am developing a new breed have been doing this for 10years now and almost to where my type is and will be breeding true to form. I have crossed apbt X shar pei X bulldog and crossed on the other side cane corso X shar pei X bulldog and breeding those dogs together doing a tight line breeding program. If people are interested to knowing more about my new breed please ask my dogs name and breed program has been copyrighted and trademarked and getting FSS status from the A.K.C looking forward to hearing from all
 

Dizzy

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#2
Education in genetics and not one full stop.

I iz suspicious scooby doo..... Do I smell fish?

That or trying to imagine how big 3000 acres is scrambled my brain.
 

poacher

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LOL 3000 acres is big lol, 10 miles by 10 miles or one concession block. Yes i have an education in genetics from the university of Guelph lol many many years ago lmao. Looking forward to all
 

Dizzy

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LOL 3000 acres is big lol, 10 miles by 10 miles or one concession block. Yes i have an education in genetics from the university of Guelph lol many many years ago lmao. Looking forward to all
That's almost as big as the whole of the UK ;) lol
 

Zoom

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#5
So what reason did you have to undertake this? What sort of working farm do you own that you need this type of short coated dog in NORTHERN CANADA. Seems a pretty big oversight right there. NONE of those breeds have any sort of cold tolerance.

Doesn't really sound like you have a reason other than "well, other people have done it and I want something with muscles!".
 

Dekka

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#6
LOL 3000 acres is big lol, 10 miles by 10 miles or one concession block. Yes i have an education in genetics from the university of Guelph lol many many years ago lmao. Looking forward to all
Hey cool another geneticist (though I am just finishing up this round of schooling)

I have to say that people know far more now about genetics than they did years ago. Heck the one prof gives the same exam every year because the answers are different enough with new research in a single year.

However, just what is your end plan with this dog. What traits are you aiming to fix in the population? Who is the 'ideal' owner for this dog. Don't get me wrong I am all for the creation of new breeds to fit an unfilled niche.. just wondering what your proposed niche is.
 
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#7
I'm curious, too, as to the purpose of your new breed and how it might be an improvement over the breeds you've used as your foundation.

Zoom brings up an excellent point as well. None of those breeds are suited to cold climates.
 

Dekka

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#8
I hope this person isn't in Northern Ont, as the breed ban will affect their dogs.

Perhaps he/she is going to have working dogs wearing parkas?
 

poacher

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well thank you for your interest ZOOM and Dekka and let me try and answer some of your questions. Zoom your comment that I just want a dog with big muscles well thats all not the case. I work a large beef farm here which all my cows are free ranged and as you might know the bulls are kept seperate. Now I use my dogs to herd the cows pasture to pasture in the summer time and I use the dogs to move the bulls to the cows in the spring. Since i free range my cattle have very little human contact, so they become alittle feral. With out my dogs I wouldn't be able to move them like I can with my dogs. Thats just the beginning i also use my dogs for hunting moose, deer, and bear. My dogs also protect my farm from wolves in the spring where wolves tend to hunt calves for their dens and cubs. Not just to have a muscle bound dog but a working dog of old, most dogs I've seen lost that ability. People breed the now working dogs not on working ability but show ring standards, which made me to want to create my own breed. A dog that can work, a dog that has courage, strength, stamina, a dog thats robust enough not to stop even if he gets cornered or alittle head butt. A dog thats aloof with strangers knowing that his appearance alone will stop a someone in their tracks. hope that answers most or your questions if you have anymore let me know, pleased to answer all. Ohhh and dekka my dogs are for anyone that wants a companion, hunting partner, guard dog, child playmate
 

poacher

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#11
Dekka lol the breed ban will not affect my dogs since apbt blood has been in my project before the ban in 2004-2005, and i never breed back or did another out cross to them so I am safe there, in that aspect. My dogs tolerate the cold well they are not worked in -30 below but all my kennels are heated I have 4 kennels that are 26ft x 72ft in door out door. I have 6 kennel hands that help clean, feed and play with each dog. All my dogs get 6-8hrs of run time aday which means they get to play with each other when not working or training. and thats my boy keeper running and playing in my pic there in the snow lmao with no parka
 

Dekka

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#12
I think you just need to do some looking. There are still quite a few people not breeding working breeds for the show ring.
Heck when I was looking for a stud dog for Dekka acutal working ability (not play working ability like trials etc) was one of my top criteria.

You just need a good working breeder.

My biggest concerns are that in anything less than warm climes these dogs won't be terribly useful year round, and the dogs will be subject to breed bans (depending on where you are)

But really since you say you are a geneticist I was hoping for a better phenotypic picture of this dog as well as a better explanation as how this new breed will be different that is already out there.

Also if you really are getting kennel club recognition perhaps you should write a book as I know many breeds that are well established with multiple breeders and generations of breeding true that can't get recognized.
 

Danefied

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#13
Interesting...
How do you know if this breed is a good family/child companion if they live in kennels?

If I wanted a dog to work a farm and protect the herd from predators, I doubt I'd be investing in a heated kennel for said dog.

I don't see any pictures...???
 

Zoom

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#14
Why don't you have any herding blood in your lines if you want them to work cattle, especially on a range that size? Australian Cattle Dogs, Australian Shepherds, there are still terrific lines out there and they are unmatched for being able to work feral cattle in open range. 3000 acres is pretty small compared to the size of the ranches and ranges both those breeds were developed to work on.

Bulldogs (what type specifically), APBT's and Shar Pei's are not what one thinks of when talking about needing to work cattle. Perhaps in the branding yard where you need a cow held down, but as far as driving and gathering, I can't see how those would have been ideal choices.

And there's still the whole matter of the northern tundra and short, single-coated breeds.
 

Dekka

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#15
Actually you are not safe if you are in ontario. You need to prove your dogs have NO APBT blood in them. The ban only allows you to OWN APBT that were born before that time. You cannot breed them, and you cannot breed dogs that are part bully breed. (sad but true).

The onus is on the dog owner to prove the dog contains no banned breed. If you can't then they can be possessed and killed.
 

poacher

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well nice for your opinions all. Ok when did you see an aussie hunt every breed of dogs you mentioned only does one job. An organism’s genotype is the set of genes that it carries. An organism’s phenotype is all of its observable characteristics—which are influenced both by its genotype and by the environment. So in defining evolution, we are really concerned with changes in the genotypes that make up a population from generation to generation. However, since an organism’s genotype generally affects its phenotype, the phenotypes that make up the population are also likely to change.
There you go Dekka lol. Another question to answer is I'm producing an all round working dog which you are all forgetting, not just a farm dog.
LOL Information on The Dog Owners' Liability Act and Public Safety Related to Dogs Statute Law Amendment Act, 2005PrintShare Text size: larger | smaller
.Please note: the page will print without the top and left navigation bars and in black and white only.

•Public Safety Related to Dogs Statute Law Amendment Act, 2005 — Highlights
•Transition Period
•Pit Bulls
•"Grandfathered" or Restricted Pit Bulls
•Grandfathered/Restricted Pit Bulls — Owners' Responsibilities
•Dog Owners' Liability Act (DOLA) Proceedings
•Part IX Proceedings and Pit Bulls
•Pit Bull Ban — Exceptions for Dog Shows and Flyball Tournaments
•Importing Pit Bulls
•Acquiring Restricted Pit Bulls
•All Dangerous Dogs
•New Powers for Animal Control Personnel
•Municipal Pounds
•Frequently Asked Questions
•Further Information
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Public Safety Related to Dogs Statute Law Amendment Act, 2005 — Highlights•On October 26, 2004 the McGuinty government introduced Bill 132 to amend the Dog Owners' Liability Act (DOLA), with related amendments to the Animals for Research Act (ARA).
•Bill 132 was passed by the Legislative Assembly as the Public Safety Related to Dogs Statute Law Amendment Act, 2005 on March 1, 2005. It received Royal Assent on March 9, 2005.
•The legislation bans pit bulls in Ontario, places restrictions on existing pit bulls, and toughens the penalties for the owners of any dog that poses a danger to the public.
•Ontario's pit bull ban took effect on August 29, 2005.
•All dog owners must comply with the amended requirements of DOLA and other provisions of law.
•Pit bull owners may keep their existing dogs, as long as they comply with certain requirements.
•The recent amendments to DOLA also contain tough new penalties for the owners of all potentially dangerous dogs, regardless of breed or type.
•Regulations made under the DOLA, as amended, came into effect on August 29, 2005. These regulations set out pit bull controls in detail. The regulations can be found at http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca
•The information below is provided to aid understanding of the legislation and does not constitute legal advice.
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Transition Period•The act received Royal Assent on March 9, 2005. However, the effective date of August 29, 2005, was set to allow municipalities time to ensure that the legislation is applied effectively.
•This transition period allowed all dog owners to familiarize themselves with the existing and new requirements of DOLA that apply to ALL dogs.
•Those who currently own pit bulls have until October 28, 2005 to comply with the new law by ensuring their dogs are spayed or neutered, and are muzzled and leashed while in public (see below: "Grandfathered" or Restricted Pit Bulls ).
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Pit Bulls•The amendments to DOLA will prohibit individuals from owning, breeding, transferring, importing or abandoning pit bulls. Training a pit bull to fight or allowing a pit bull to stray are also prohibited.
•There are exceptions to the restrictions on ownership, transfer and importing in the case of "grandfathered" pit bulls (see below: "Grandfathered" or Restricted Pit Bulls ).
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"Grandfathered" or Restricted Pit Bulls•Individuals who already own pit bulls will be able to keep them, provided they comply with requirements set out in the amendments and the regulations.
•Pit bulls kept legally after the ban will be known as "grandfathered" or restricted pit bulls.
•In order for a pit bull to qualify as a "grandfathered" or restricted pit bull, it must be:
•Owned by an Ontario resident on August 29, 2005., or
•Born in Ontario within 90 days after August 29, 2005.
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Grandfathered/Restricted Pit Bulls — Owners' Responsibilities•Pit bull owners are required to ensure their pit bulls are in compliance with the amendments and regulations.
•The full text of the regulations can be found on the e-laws website. The text below summarizes certain key elements of the regulations and is not authoritative.
•By October 28, 2005, pit bull owners will have to have their pit bulls leashed and muzzled in public and comply with sterilization requirements.
•The regulations stipulate that restricted pit bulls be muzzled and leashed unless the dogs are on their owners' enclosed property or on enclosed property occupied by another person who consents to the pit bull being without a muzzle or leash.
•Among other specific requirements, a leash may be a maximum of 1.8 metres long.
•Muzzles should be humane, but strong enough and well-fitted enough to prevent the pit bull from biting, without interfering with the breathing, panting, or vision of the pit bull or with the pit bull's ability to drink.
•All pit bulls must be sterilized by October 28, 2005.
•If this would require a pit bull to be sterilized before it reaches 36-weeks of age, the owner may wait until the dog reaches that age to have it sterilized.
•There are limited exemptions to the sterilization requirement if, in the written opinion of a veterinarian, a pit bull is physically unfit to be anaesthetized because of old age or infirmity. See the regulations for further details.
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Dog Owners' Liability Act (DOLA) Proceedings•This section describes DOLA proceedings as they existed before amendments to the legislation became effective on August 29, 2005.
•The amendments to the legislation make some changes to the Part IX proceedings and the offence proceedings. Those changes are discussed in subsequent sections.
•Civil Proceedings
•If a dog bites you, you may bring a civil action against the dog's owner for damages.
•The Act states that the owner of a dog is liable for damages resulting from a bite or attack and that liability does not depend on the owner's fault, negligence or knowledge of the propensity of the dog to bite or attack.
•Proceedings under Part IX of the Provincial Offences Act (Part IX Orders or Part IX Proceedings)
•DOLA provides that any individual can start a court proceeding under Part IX of the Provincial Offences Act (POA).
•In these proceedings, an individual can seek a court order related to a dog.
•These orders can provide for destruction of the dog or require that the dog's owner take certain measures in relation to the dog such as requiring that the dog be muzzled or leashed.
•Offence Proceedings under Part III of the Provincial Offences Act (Offence Proceedings)
•Violations of various Ontario statutes, including DOLA, constitute provincial offences and may be prosecuted under the Provincial Offences Act.
•After charges are laid, a Crown attorney presents the case in court.
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Part IX Proceedings and Pit Bulls•In Part IX proceedings, an individual may seek a court order in relation to a dog (see above: Dog Owners' Liability Act (DOLA) Proceedings ).
•Where a court is convinced that a pit bull has bitten or attacked or posed a menace in a Part IX proceeding, a mandatory destruction order must be issued.
•Where a pit bull owner is found to have contravened a provision of the DOLA, the regulations, or a court order in relation to the pit bull, a mandatory destruction order must be issued in a Part IX proceeding.
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Pit Bull Ban — Exceptions for Dog Shows and Flyball Tournaments•There are limited exceptions to certain requirements of the pit bull ban to allow the participation of pit bulls in dog shows and flyball tournaments.
•"Dog shows" and "flyball tournaments" are defined in the regulations. See e-laws for more information.
•Dog shows must be sanctioned, in writing, by one or more of the following dog registries: Canadian Kennel Club, United Kennel Club, American Kennel Club or American Dog Breeders Association.
•Flyball tournaments must be sanctioned, in writing, by the North American Flyball Association.
•There are different exceptions for restricted Ontario pit bulls and pit bulls not owned by Ontario residents.
•Details of these limited exceptions are set out in the regulations.
•None of these exceptions permit breeding of pit bulls, under any circumstances.
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Importing Pit Bulls•It is against the law to bring pit bulls into Ontario, even for a short visit.
•There are no exceptions made for:
•Tourists
•People moving to Ontario, or
•Military personnel being transferred to Ontario postings.
•The law does allow certain pit bulls into Ontario for recognized dog shows under limited circumstances (see above: Pit Bull Ban — Exceptions for Dog Shows and Flyball Tournaments).
•If you leave Ontario with a restricted pit bull (one that was legally owned after the ban was implemented), you can return with that pit bull within three months of your departure.
.theres the law about bill 132 my dogs are not pitbulls or anytype they list nor do they look like them, in Ontario they have to prove it's a pitbull not you that has to prove your innocence.
 

Zoom

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#17
Thanks for the block of copy/paste.

All dogs mentioned have numerous functions, it sounds like you didn't do a whole lot of research.

None of the breeds you are working with are livestock guardians and what with being in a "heated kennel" for the better part of the day, they're not going to be out there doing a whole heck of a lot to keep predators out of your herds.

Your story is not adding up there, friend.
 

Dekka

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#18
I know all those things but none are relevant to the issue at hand.

“pit bull†includes,

(a) a pit bull terrier,

(b) a Staffordshire bull terrier,

(c) an American Staffordshire terrier,

(d) an American pit bull terrier,

(e) a dog that has an appearance and physical characteristics that are substantially similar to those of dogs referred to in any of clauses (a) to (d); (“pit-bullâ€)
Now are you aware of some of the dogs being killed by this? Some that have only a small amount of bully breed in them. The onus is on the owner to prove that they are not a 'pit bull', or part pit bull. Now if your dogs don't look at all like a generic pit bull (and boxer crosses have died.. I was part of a group trying to save a boxer lab puppy) you 'might' get away with it. But all it takes is ONE person to report your dogs, and they could die unless you can PROVE they are not. As you admit to breeding them in and with other similar dogs it doesn't look good.

So why do you need only one dog to do everything? You know the saying Jack of all trades, master of none. Why not get a couple of bear dogs and then get some working herding dogs (many of which will far outstrip anything you are going to be able to breed in the way of herding feral cattle in cold climes)
 

Saeleofu

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#19
I just would like to point out that you say you will use these dogs for hunting, and you chose the screen name "Poacher."

Poacher
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Poacher may refer to:
Poaching, the theft or illegal killing of animals or plants, or sometimes artifacts. A poacher is someone who engages in poaching.
 

poacher

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#20
well all my dogs are registered with the CLRC and under a distinct breed name thats how I got my FSS and plus copyrighting and trademarking my program helped alot. Now my dogs are NOT pits or of similar sort the pitblood was infused prior to the ban and 10 years of breeding has pretty much washed out the apbt. My dogs are more corsing mastiff a running mastiff. My dogs work and work hard and anyone who leaves their dogs outside in -30to -40 below should be charged and reported. I've spent alot of money in this program all i wanted was peoples opinions about my dogs and I got them. Thanks to all, those who don't think theres a need for such animal shouldn't own one and people like these that support banning breeds. This is my legacy, and my money I'm spending, not one of my dogs has ever been in a shelter, nor has anyone but my family has ever owned one and if it stays that way it's also fine with me, my vision, my dream, my money, and my dogs. If i never sell one thats also fine with me, but i can say this 6 families are gainfully employed because of these dogs. thanks again to you all
 

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