My problem with "NILIF"

[sam]

I posted this on another forum and got some really interesting food for thought from some brillinat dog trainers so I'll cross post it here too.

NILIF (nothing in life is free) is the thing I most commonly hear suggested on every online forum for just about any dog related problem people encounter.

While I certainly agree that it's better to assert yourself as the leader through control of resources, controlling the dogs behavior in a hands off way, rather than by physical means or punishment, I do think there are better ways than what I've read described as "NILIF".

I got thinking about this in another thread on another forum where a dog who had previously worked pretty well, started to ignore and avoid his owner when she went to an NILIF approach. Work became no fun anymore and he ended up with a sour attitude. The owner developed a drill sergeant mentality and Bob's your uncle! nobody is having fun anymore and everything deteriorates.

The way I was taught and what I thinks works better, is instead of CUEING / commanding the dog to do something for everything they want or get, you set it up to be DEFAULT or automatic polite behaviors.

Rather than Cueing the dog, you just WAIT til the dog offers a polite behavior or what you like. Ignore everything else. Typically dogs offer sitting and eye contact because sitting is the first thing they learn and has the longest history of reinforcement and they look at you to figure out what the heck you are doing-- that works for me. Dogs who are politely sitting and looking at me are being calm and aren't doing anything obnoxious that I don't like. As Ian Dunbar says "Don't just DO something, stand there"


The difference seems subtle but instead of the dog feeling like he is being told what to do all the time and maybe becoming resentful and an owner feeling like they always have to TELL the dog what to do, which gets old pretty fast, you get a dog who * just knows * and automatically does "good things" and is polite.

The dog likes it because he thinks he has figured out how to get you to do what he wants and you are happy because you now have a dog who* just knows * how to behave and be polite. In his mind, he's got the keys to the kingdom and you're happy because your dog is being well behaved and polite without your having to DO or SAY anything. It's win-win.

This approach also has a calming effect on dogs who tend to be hyper- or at least that's what I have found with Rowdy (crazy foster dog) and Rosie (hyper aussie).

Cueing/commanding dogs to do things doesn't have the same effect as letting them think about it and deciding for themselves what to do. I much prefer having a thinking dog rather than a dog who has to be told what to do or does whatever he likes until he is told otherwise.Thinking and figuring it out is also mentally challenging and stimulating for the dog.

I find this much more effective for teaching self control and getting hyper dogs to learn to be calm. The dog needs to control HIMSELF rather than ME intervening to control his behavior.

Here's how it works at my house:

-Dog comes to me and wants attention or petting.
I say nothing, do nothing until the dog politely sits. (I ignore any obnoxious behaviors like shoving a nose under my hand, mauling me etc. If the behavior is impossible to ignore I walk away.) The instant the dogs sits, I tell them they're great and pat them. If patting them results in hyper obnxious behavior or the dog breaking the sit, I take my hand away- saying NOTHING. Repeat.
In less than half a day I have a dog who runs up to me and plunks his butt in the ground politely for attention-- beautiful.

-Dog wants me to open the door and let him out in the yard? I WAIT (silently with my hand on the knob) for a sit and eye contact and open as soon as I get the desired behavior. The first one or two might take 3o seconds, but subsequent times are really quick. I don't require a sit anymore but I do get eye contact.

- Dog wants me to put his food bowl down? Same thing --I WAIT for a sit and eye contact and the sit has to be maintained til I release the dog to his food. If the dog breaks the sit, the food just comes back up, I stand up-- no words are spoken. Talking and ah! ah! ing just distract from the process of the dog figuring it out.

-Dog wants up on my bed? I wait for a sit and eye contact and tell the dog "ok! "
(if that dog is allowed on beds- if they are "on probation" and there are issues, they probably don't have on the bed priviledges)

Sitting and offering eye contact becomes like saying please.

I also like this method because if I have guests over, which is when Rosie tends to get hyper and do silly, obnoxious things, and I am busy looking after and talking to my guests, I don't have to split my focus to watch the dog and have to tell her what to do. Much more pleasant.

People are amazed and say "oh your dogs are sooo gooood. Border collies JUST KNOW how to be good" HA! Far from it and Rosie isn't a bc -LOL. But yes, they don't need to be TOLD what to do all the time because they've already learned what works and what doesn't, so they automatically do what works.

I see owners get tired of cueing their dog all the time they want a dog that KNOWS how to behave. They want "a good dog" and this lets them have it.

They get tired of telling their dog what NOT to do and want their dog to "just be good already" this method lets you have that.

I also don't like telling my dogs what NOT to do. It makes me grumpy and it's not very concrete concept to the dog. It's far easier to teach a dog what TO do than what NOT to do.

If the dog is doing something I don't like , I don't usually scold, say NO! or otherwise try to show the dog that they should never do that (a few exceptions). I cue them to perform an incompatible, alternate behavior that they know how to do and reward for that *** I make sure the behavior I want "works" for the dog***.

Now instead of having dogs that beg at the table and bother me when I'm cooking, I have dogs that AUTOMATICALLY lie down 10 feet away and wait because they have learned THAT behavior is the one that earns them what they want. Being at the table or in the kitchen never does.
Lie ten feet away quietly and odds are I'm going to toss you something.

People tend to make the mistake of ignoring the dog when he is being calm and lying down-- so why would the dog do it then? Owners get focused on teaching the dog NOT to do "bad" things and it feels like a full time job. Don't miss an opportunity to reward the dog for doing a behavior you like! He's lying down being calm? Mark it! Go give him a pat or a treat and walk away. Your dog will be shocked and you'll notice that pretty soon he is doing that behavior more often .

I suspect that's probably what lots of you do for NILIF already but it's not how I've read the method described and I find the difference significant and something that has made my life with hyper, intense dogs (plus kids and a cat) so much easier so I thought it was worth talking about.

 

[Doberluv]

Excellent post Sam!

 

[IliamnasQuest]

I don't disagree with what you said, and much of what you describe is exactly what I already do ..

BUT .. In working with pet owners for more than a decade and a half, I can tell you that many/most pet owners do not notice the "good" behaviors unless they're actually interacting with their dogs by cues and commands.

I wish it wasn't that way. People who notice and who have the patience to train the way you're talking about tend to be more consistent and rewarding to their dogs. People with good "dog sense" tend to be natural trainers and only have to gain a bit of understanding for it to all fall into place. Unfortunately that's not the norm. And it's a lot easier to get people to follow NILIF when it's cut and dried and explained in a cue/result way. The concept of waiting for a behavior or noticing a behavior that you like is awkward, confusing and time consuming for many people.

Normal NILIF shouldn't be like a drill sergeant either .. at least not the way I explain it to people. It should be highly rewarding but only for the right things. It shouldn't mean a lack of loving behaviors toward your dog (unless for some reason those loving behaviors are creating a problem). If someone is taking it to the point of the dog shutting down, then something's wrong with what they're doing. They're not reinforcing properly or they're being really harsh about it. I hesitate to believe that a dog feels "resentful" or that the other way creates a dog that thinks he has the control - to me, that's giving the dog a way of thinking that is anthropomorphic. The dog does what works for him, and if it involves a cue followed by a properly timed reward - or doesn't involve a cue, but still involves a properly timed reward - the dog is going to react favorably either way.


I've never had anyone's dog shut down like you described even if they're using cues/commands for the NILIF. I can see how it could happen, though, if a person is harsh! But I don't think the NILIF is the problem ... the person is the problem.

Just my opinion on it. I do think that shaping the behaviors sans cues or commands is really neat and I do a lot of it. But I also don't see any problem with a proper pattern of cue/mark/reward even in NILIF.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[ihartgonzo]

I do this with Fozzie, basically, without even thinking about it... with Gonzo, I started giving him NILIF cues more because he responds to it better. Fozzie is much more head-strong & was definitely becoming resentful of me telling him to "sit" before coming in, going out, getting food, etc. I modified that a little by just waiting for him to do it, now he "sits" and "waits" for all of the above perfectly.

I do agree with Melanie, though... most dog owners are NOT intuitive enough or have enough patience to do this. For most, NILIF is the most logical & easy way to train their dogs.

 

[Rubylove]

That's a good post Sam, and I agree with dogs the whole `sit' (for example) every single time they ever have to do anything can be redundant and frustrating for them. Plus, some people can take it too far and require a whole repertoire of tricks just so the dog can get their dinner.

Ignoring and waiting for a behaviour to be offered is the way I teach basic commands, and it's particularly effective with young puppies. Because I clicker-train waiting for the behaviour to be offered is such a great start - as you say, they work it out for themselves and get a reward, they love it, it's easy for you, and you have a happy and enthusiastic dog.

We employ NILIF to a pretty large degree with our own dogs, but I try to break it up. Every ten times, for example, they don't have to sit and wait for their dinner. Or every ten times, they don't have to sit before they come inside. Because they're used to behaving, they're used to NILIF, they're used to the action = the reward, this is unexpected for them and keeps them interested. It doesn't break it up in a way that makes them forget their manners, it just means that every now and again they get something they haven't had to earn. It's nice for them, it's nice for us, and as a result we don't have problems with boredom, frustration and consequent disobedience from them. Works a charm, I love it.

However, for unruly dogs, or for people who's dogs have little to no boundaries, I always recommend NILIF just for basic habit-forming of obeying commands and earning their way. Always. It's invaluable to teach a dog to get into the habit of doing what you say - not to be `dominant' or put them in their place. But just so that it's second nature to them to look to you for guidance. That's how I use it - a method of control, yes, but a gentle one.

As an aside, it always cracks me up just how eager their `sit' is when I've got something really good. They'll happily `sit, stay, eat' for their dinner. But if I've got a special treat or a toy they really love, their butts hit the ground like lightning often before I even have to ask. That's when you know that the whole concept has really sunk in. I love watching them learn. It's very special.

 

[Zoom]

I like to start out with NILIF to establish those ground behaviors and then fade out the contant cuing/commanding once the behaviors are becoming ingrained. Pretty much what you said, I guess. The sit/eye contact has the longest history of reinforcement with my crew as well.

 

[Groch]

Sam,

Excellent post....I do think there is a difference between trading good behavior for treats and understanding that certain behaviors are the "right" way to do things...Not right in a morale sense, but right because they work.


On a lighter note, the "sit and make eye contact" behavior made me LOL. My shelter dog taught ME that behavior.

When I got him he would spin around and jump when he wanted something done, food or a walk etc. It annoyed me so I ignorred it.

He then switched behavior on his own. I work at home on a computer and he figured out that if he moved to where he was just visible behind my computer screen, sat very quitely with his ears raised and stared intensely at me, unmoving, that I could not take that stare for more than 3 minutes without going over to find out what he wants.

It is extemely passive aggressive! He is manipulating me by using polite behavior by being so cute and serious! I can't stand it:lol-sign:

 

[sam]

I don't disagree with what you said, and much of what you describe is exactly what I already do ..

BUT .. In working with pet owners for more than a decade and a half, I can tell you that many/most pet owners do not notice the "good" behaviors unless they're actually interacting with their dogs by cues and commands.

I wish it wasn't that way. People who notice and who have the patience to train the way you're talking about tend to be more consistent and rewarding to their dogs. People with good "dog sense" tend to be natural trainers and only have to gain a bit of understanding for it to all fall into place. Unfortunately that's not the norm. And it's a lot easier to get people to follow NILIF when it's cut and dried and explained in a cue/result way. The concept of waiting for a behavior or noticing a behavior that you like is awkward, confusing and time consuming for many people.

Normal NILIF shouldn't be like a drill sergeant either .. at least not the way I explain it to people. It should be highly rewarding but only for the right things. It shouldn't mean a lack of loving behaviors toward your dog (unless for some reason those loving behaviors are creating a problem). If someone is taking it to the point of the dog shutting down, then something's wrong with what they're doing. They're not reinforcing properly or they're being really harsh about it. I hesitate to believe that a dog feels "resentful" or that the other way creates a dog that thinks he has the control - to me, that's giving the dog a way of thinking that is anthropomorphic. The dog does what works for him, and if it involves a cue followed by a properly timed reward - or doesn't involve a cue, but still involves a properly timed reward - the dog is going to react favorably either way.


I've never had anyone's dog shut down like you described even if they're using cues/commands for the NILIF. I can see how it could happen, though, if a person is harsh! But I don't think the NILIF is the problem ... the person is the problem.

Just my opinion on it. I do think that shaping the behaviors sans cues or commands is really neat and I do a lot of it. But I also don't see any problem with a proper pattern of cue/mark/reward even in NILIF.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

I agree.
There's a lot contigent upon HOW the individual implements the program. The descriptions of NILIF probably vary too, in the situation that I was talking about the owner was very frustrated and implementing NILIF seemed to have set up an adversarial relationship between the dog and owner which was counter productive--obviously it doesn't need to be done that way.

My dogs and I really like having a bunch of default behaviours, it's easy to do and seems to not often be talked about which is why I posted this. You can use NILIF without having to spend all day giving you dog cues / commands.

 

[TopShelfPets]

Here's how it works at my house:

-Dog comes to me and wants attention or petting.
I say nothing, do nothing until the dog politely sits. (I ignore any obnoxious behaviors like shoving a nose under my hand, mauling me etc. If the behavior is impossible to ignore I walk away.) The instant the dogs sits, I tell them they're great and pat them. If patting them results in hyper obnxious behavior or the dog breaking the sit, I take my hand away- saying NOTHING. Repeat.
In less than half a day I have a dog who runs up to me and plunks his butt in the ground politely for attention-- beautiful.

-Dog wants me to open the door and let him out in the yard? I WAIT (silently with my hand on the knob) for a sit and eye contact and open as soon as I get the desired behavior. The first one or two might take 3o seconds, but subsequent times are really quick. I don't require a sit anymore but I do get eye contact.

- Dog wants me to put his food bowl down? Same thing --I WAIT for a sit and eye contact and the sit has to be maintained til I release the dog to his food. If the dog breaks the sit, the food just comes back up, I stand up-- no words are spoken. Talking and ah! ah! ing just distract from the process of the dog figuring it out.

-Dog wants up on my bed? I wait for a sit and eye contact and tell the dog "ok! "
(if that dog is allowed on beds- if they are "on probation" and there are issues, they probably don't have on the bed priviledges)

Sitting and offering eye contact becomes like saying please.

I've never heard the NILIF program described, but isn't this the same concept? The dog has to do something for you before recieving a reward.

Dog wants attention? It must sit and offer eye contact. Dog wants to be fed? Dog has to sit politely and offer eye contact. The attention and food are the rewards, and the dog has to work for them.

so can someone explain how NILIF is different?

 

[Doberluv]

In NILIF, they mention a lot of giving commands, telling the dog what to do. In Sam's post, she stresses the value of teaching these nice manners by way of creating default so you don't tell the dog to sit. He just learns to sit without being told for things like opening the door for him, placing his food bowl down, greeting a friend, getting up on the bed etc. You stand there by the door when a dog clearly would like to go out and you wait without telling him to sit. The dog wonders why you're not doing something and will most often sit. (Dogs tend to sit when there is no other information coming from their owner because sit probably has become a very entrenched behavior, having been reinforced for a long time) They sit to study you over....watch you for your human social cues. That's when you reinforce them by opening the door for them. They learn that sitting before getting to go outside is the way to get what they want. No cues, no words, no signals from you, other than maybe your hand on the door knob.

My feeling is that often NILIF is carried too far and can cause unnecessary frustration in dogs, although, of course, good manners need to be taught and it's a gentle way to teach. If a dog is way out of control, then perhaps he should earn more of his piveleges. The difference is in giving cues or not giving cues, but teaching the dog the behavior so it becomes natural and automatic to him. And that is a very good goal IMO. And something I do with a lot of things.

I do not ask or care if my dogs sit everytime I pay attention to them. I think that's unnatural and ridiculous. I don't ask my Doberman to sit before he gets his meal every time. If I just stand there, holding his bowl, he'll sit, so I throw that in once in a while, just to keep him humble. But he is sooooooo not pushy, that I don't mind just setting down for him most of the time. It makes no difference to me. Two of my dogs would be more pushy, so I'm more of a stickler with them.

Now, going out the door is another story. He may be very eager to go out and has the potentional to become pushy, squeezing to get out first. So, I will wait for him to stay back, paused before I open the door and then release him. He doesn't have to sit. I just don't want him cramming my leg against the door jam. So, 6 feet back or so, stand there, paused....and the door opens. Then it's "Ok" and he's out. I began this lesson long ago, and showed him to sit/wait and then would close the door before he could get out if he broke the sit/wait. That's how we started. Then I faded and stopped using any cue. He just stands back out of my way and waits. But it can be taught from the beginning without telling him to sit and wait if you wait a little longer. He'll wonder what's up and will sit eventually.

As far as most people go, I think it's fine to start out, if it's easier, telling the dog to sit first or whatever. That can be faded later and turned into a default behavior. With some things, in fact, I think it's easier to give them a little jump start by giving a cue....get them onto the routine and then fade the cue away. I find that a little less stressful to a dog than having him wait too long....if he's just not getting it.....what to try. It just depends on the thing I'm doing.

For instance, Lyric is allowed on my bed...by default. He doesn't have to wait for an invitation. However, if I need to straighten the blankets and he sees me and hasn't gotten on the bed yet, I don't have to tell him to wait, as I did at first. Now, if he sees me fiddling with the blankets,(that's the cue now) he just waits with his chin on the bed. When I'm finished and walk away from the bed's edge, he jumps up. If, for some reason I don't want him up there, I just tell him, "off." But for the most part, I don't care if he's up there or not. To hell with my silk comforter. I use to care, but I've mellowed out with that. LOL.

 

[TopShelfPets]

thanks doberluv.

i guess i was mistaking reinforcing natural (default) behaviors and training.

 

[Lilly Tilly]

I have a Lab/Dob with a serious dog aggression/reaction issue. NILIF was recommended to us, in hopes that one day my dog would learn to look at me for behaviour cues, and sit , or "leave it" or whatever, next time she sees a dog, and feels like freaking out.

Sam, i LOVE your take on NILIF, and i think for the average, pretty well behaved dog, that way is wonderful. Your way makes more sense and seems to be much more natural. It must seem to the dog, that this is what we are trying to teach them...good behaviour gets rewards!

I think the more rigid approach to NILIF is more specifically for dogs with serious issues. Issues which are VERY difficult to resolve. I think it sort of teaches the dog to trust what YOU tell him, over what they would want to do.

This was my understanding of it anyway. Having said that, i am finding it difficult to follow, and find i am going towards Sam's concept of it.