Jockeys - new show to start on Animal Planet

[Sweet72947]

I've been seeing this advertisement for a new show on AP called "Jockeys" about, well, those people who participate in horse racing. I'm interested to see it. They keep showing the same ad that shows a horse going down in the race and getting trampled; it makes me worried that people are going to start seeing horse racing as cruel. I hope this show doesn't bring about ARist lobbying for the end of horse racing.

 

[BostonBanker]

it makes me worried that people are going to start seeing horse racing as cruel.

START? I refuse to watch any horse racing at all. Until some major, major changes are made to the way it is done, I think it is absolutely horrific. A few tracks have started to make some changes that help, but money talks, and they will probably never be able to make the changes that need to be made.

And, now cue all the people who are going to tell me I'm supporting the AR activists.

 

[Sweet72947]

I actually haven't read or seen anything that said horse racing was cruel. I thought that, just as with everything, there is the good and the bad.

 

[BostonBanker]

There is a lot about it that is horribly done; money, of course, being the motivating factor.

The prospective racehorses are under saddle as late yearlings; studies and x-rays have shown that joints are not fully closed until much later. There is a reason that most other disciplines don't start horses under saddle until they are close to three. They have adults sitting on babies who are not physically or mentally ready for anything of the sort. But the big money races are for 3 year olds, so they need to get them on the track at 2 to be ready.

The number of horses the racing industry sends to slaughter is disgusting. This is where I give the tracks credit for trying; there are now a couple of tracks (I know Suffolk Downs started it, and someone told me there were a couple more now) who will now ban any trainer who ships a horse to an auction that sells for slaughter. Kind of like sticking a finger in the dam, but a nice first step.

I've known a lot of horses who came off the track. The crappy feet, the broken down legs, the neurotic tendencies from being started too early, jacked up on huge amounts of carbs, and locked in a stall most of the day....

Just like with dogs, when you breed for just one trait (speed), you get a lot of other things falling apart. Eight Belles, who broke down last year on national TV? A couple people I know who are very knowledgable about TB bloodlines said "Duh". There were several generations of horses who did not stay sound behind her. But they were fast, and so was she. For her far too brief life.

Of course, there are some people out there who are trying to do right by their racehorses, and I also don't doubt that many more truly care about them; it's just a really messed up industry, and is going to take some massive changes before it can start to get better.

If I'm ever a billionaire, I am going to sponser the most expensive race in the country - for horses who are 6 or older.

 

[Alimel]

I cannot watch that show. My husband had been involved with the local race tracks for years and we had friends that were jockeys. I heard too many things that upset me

 

[adojrts]

Racing isn't the only horse industry that has bad things about it.
Lots of show jumpers plus many others start them early too, seen it and over fences before they are 3.
And of course there is the ever popular jump chutes.
Tacks in boots and bells, depends on where the horse is hanging a leg over a fence. Blind bars on spreads or oxers. Yeah wasn't it ol George Morris allegedly that found himself in a ton of trouble a few years ago in Florida DURING a jumping clinic? Blind bar after a spread that ended up impaling a horse?
MAC painted on cornet bands to make them very sore, then put the horse wrong into a fence so they wrap, next time they go over boy oh boy do they tuck.
Oh yeah and the very popular wirebrush, you know the ones that are used to clean rust or the BBQ? Of course in secret they wrap the fronts of the cornet bands to make the horse good and sore, put it over a fence wrong so it knocks it, again next fence the horse is snappy.

Of course you can't drug test for any of that stuff..........hard to prove but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Qh, pleasure horses, bleed'm and hang'm and block their tails.

Arabs, bitting harnesses, frosted contacts.....to name a few.

Walking/Racking, chains, rollers and cut tendons in the tail for the to train the tail to be up.
I ve seen dressage horses literally whipped until they had welts, learning the passage/piaffe.
And there is so much more........just not racing.

Not all race stables race their 2 yr olds, although they are often trained lightly' as studies out of the Kty, proved that 2 yr olds with an increase of 15% calicum in their diets combined with light training had a higher bone density than those left in the field. And not on the end of a bloody lunge line.

Yes, most (not all depends on the individual) are started as long yearlings, BUT they are not put on the end of a stupid lunge line to go around and around, they are often ground driven and then backed carefully. Training at that time is used to put some quiet and basic training on them and they usually don't even canter. Just a lot of walking and some trotting for 4-6 wks. Then they are layed off, usually for several months and started up again in the late winter or early spring. And IF they are kept in training, they are often rode every other day for months and they hardly ever break a sweat.
Riders that do the starting often have to be weighed EVERY week, no rider is allowed over 120 lbs at the very most.

This is a gerneral chart of when growth plates close, keeping in mind that the larger the horse and the breed this can be longer or shorter.
Also most breeders/trainers/owners, x-ray several times from the late yearling to 3 yr old to have the plates rated and such horses are trained accordingly. At least with the larger farms, they tend to not spare any expense.

1. Short pastern - between birth and 15 mos.
2. Long pastern - between birth and 15 mos.
3. Cannon bone - between birth and 18 mos.
4. Radius-ulna - upper growth plate (near the elbow) will close from 11-25 months, while the lower one (near the knee) closes anywhere from 22-42 months.
5. Humerus - Between 11-42 months.
6. Scapula - Between 9-36+ months.

What absolutely amazes me is how dog people, throw stones at the racing world, when we live in a glass houses.
Meaning, I go to agility trials and I see more lame dogs in one place than at ANY race track.
People that are competing with their dogs, that are GROSSLY uneducated in keeping their dogs fit, at a correct weight and sound. And of course there is always the ones who over train and keep their dogs conditioned into the ground.........yep lame dogs and usually ALL the dogs owned by such people are lame.
And worse than that, they don't see it and they don't seem to care!!!!
We compete in dog sports where there is absolutely no governing of drugs!! All kinds of people just give them some pain meds, but that is ok.
And yes there have been dogs that have broken legs and torn ligaments all the time in dog sports, why is that ok?
Holly cr.ap want to get people in an up roar?? Suggest that judges should be stopping people from competing with their dogs if the dog appears to be lame!!! Wow, that gets people going, how dare anyone suggest that!!
And the scary part is flyball is worse, good grief.

At least the racing industry has invested in research and governing, it may not be perfect but it is a far cry better than what is happening with dog sports.
And it never will either, because the general public isn't watching and because we will never compete for that kind of money, therefore some of the things that need to be in place wont happen. At least not in the near future.
Anyone know if there is even drug testing done at the Worlds for agility? Not likely..............

 

[PixieSticksandTricks]

START? I refuse to watch any horse racing at all. Until some major, major changes are made to the way it is done, I think it is absolutely horrific. A few tracks have started to make some changes that help, but money talks, and they will probably never be able to make the changes that need to be made.

And, now cue all the people who are going to tell me I'm supporting the AR activists.

My brothers best friend is a jockey at one of those tracks. He is actually one of the ones who was all for those changes. He's been a Jockey for about 10 years and while he is all for the horses well being and not just winning thats not how most other jockeys think.

 

[BostonBanker]

Oh, I'm not saying that every sport that involves animals doesn't have issues (did you know the legal dose of bute for AQHA is TEN GRAMS???). I think any time we use animals in our pursuit for glory, they will be the ones who suffer. But to an extent, it comes down to sheer numbers for me. I haven't seen any statistics, but I'm willing to bet there are a whole lot more horses washing out of the racing industry than any other. And were you to compare the number of high level jumpers still competing at 15 versus the number of racehorses...well, I don't need statistics for that. And once you get to the top levels of jumping, drug tests are often under FEI rules - which means basically nothing can be in their systems. Riders have lost medals because a human topical drug that was on their skin touched the horse when they were handling it.

And I need to find the study, because I know it is on the web, that looked at when the various parts of the spine are mature - it's quite a bit later than the leg joints. I think the study was looking at the physical problems caused by rollkur - yup, the dressage world's dirty side.

I don't want to see racing banned; I just think there needs to be some real changes made. And yes, they are starting. But I don't think we are ever going to see the ones that are really needed come to pass.

 

[sillysally]

Racing isn't the only horse industry that has bad things about it.
Lots of show jumpers plus many others start them early too, seen it and over fences before they are 3.
And of course there is the ever popular jump chutes.
Tacks in boots and bells, depends on where the horse is hanging a leg over a fence. Blind bars on spreads or oxers. Yeah wasn't it ol George Morris allegedly that found himself in a ton of trouble a few years ago in Florida DURING a jumping clinic? Blind bar after a spread that ended up impaling a horse?
MAC painted on cornet bands to make them very sore, then put the horse wrong into a fence so they wrap, next time they go over boy oh boy do they tuck.
Oh yeah and the very popular wirebrush, you know the ones that are used to clean rust or the BBQ? Of course in secret they wrap the fronts of the cornet bands to make the horse good and sore, put it over a fence wrong so it knocks it, again next fence the horse is snappy.

Of course you can't drug test for any of that stuff..........hard to prove but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Qh, pleasure horses, bleed'm and hang'm and block their tails.

Arabs, bitting harnesses, frosted contacts.....to name a few.

Walking/Racking, chains, rollers and cut tendons in the tail for the to train the tail to be up.
I ve seen dressage horses literally whipped until they had welts, learning the passage/piaffe.
And there is so much more........just not racing.

Not all race stables race their 2 yr olds, although they are often trained lightly' as studies out of the Kty, proved that 2 yr olds with an increase of 15% calicum in their diets combined with light training had a higher bone density than those left in the field. And not on the end of a bloody lunge line.

Yes, most (not all depends on the individual) are started as long yearlings, BUT they are not put on the end of a stupid lunge line to go around and around, they are often ground driven and then backed carefully. Training at that time is used to put some quiet and basic training on them and they usually don't even canter. Just a lot of walking and some trotting for 4-6 wks. Then they are layed off, usually for several months and started up again in the late winter or early spring. And IF they are kept in training, they are often rode every other day for months and they hardly ever break a sweat.
Riders that do the starting often have to be weighed EVERY week, no rider is allowed over 120 lbs at the very most.

This is a gerneral chart of when growth plates close, keeping in mind that the larger the horse and the breed this can be longer or shorter.
Also most breeders/trainers/owners, x-ray several times from the late yearling to 3 yr old to have the plates rated and such horses are trained accordingly. At least with the larger farms, they tend to not spare any expense.

1. Short pastern - between birth and 15 mos.
2. Long pastern - between birth and 15 mos.
3. Cannon bone - between birth and 18 mos.
4. Radius-ulna - upper growth plate (near the elbow) will close from 11-25 months, while the lower one (near the knee) closes anywhere from 22-42 months.
5. Humerus - Between 11-42 months.
6. Scapula - Between 9-36+ months.

What absolutely amazes me is how dog people, throw stones at the racing world, when we live in a glass houses.
Meaning, I go to agility trials and I see more lame dogs in one place than at ANY race track.
People that are competing with their dogs, that are GROSSLY uneducated in keeping their dogs fit, at a correct weight and sound. And of course there is always the ones who over train and keep their dogs conditioned into the ground.........yep lame dogs and usually ALL the dogs owned by such people are lame.
And worse than that, they don't see it and they don't seem to care!!!!
We compete in dog sports where there is absolutely no governing of drugs!! All kinds of people just give them some pain meds, but that is ok.
And yes there have been dogs that have broken legs and torn ligaments all the time in dog sports, why is that ok?
Holly cr.ap want to get people in an up roar?? Suggest that judges should be stopping people from competing with their dogs if the dog appears to be lame!!! Wow, that gets people going, how dare anyone suggest that!!
And the scary part is flyball is worse, good grief.

At least the racing industry has invested in research and governing, it may not be perfect but it is a far cry better than what is happening with dog sports.
And it never will either, because the general public isn't watching and because we will never compete for that kind of money, therefore some of the things that need to be in place wont happen. At least not in the near future.
Anyone know if there is even drug testing done at the Worlds for agility? Not likely..............

:hail:

I also think it's important to remember that we have many of the advances in equine medicine that we do because of the money spent by the racing industry for research.

Are they pure as the freshly driven snow--absolutely not! But as was pointed out, there really isn't an animal sport where there is money or glory involved that is. There are definitely problems that *need* to be dealt with. however, to write the entire racing industry off as cruel is just a mistake, IMHO.

 

[adojrts]

I've been at the top levels with show jumping and I can tell you from direct experience that it is common that those horses wont test positive to drugs either and for one good reason.
There are drugs out there that don't test, they have to be given (typically i.v) at a certain time and then masked with other drugs that are legal.
The officals/stewards and the labs know about these drugs, they just can't prove it. When they are able to get those drugs to test positive, word gets out immediately and everyone using those drugs just goes and gets the latest drug waiting on the sidelines that can't be tested positive yet.
It's the dirty little secret of the the industries of the horse world.

Your right they can't get away with it at the Olympic's and medals have been stripped, but thats because the horses are under watch for 24/7, which isn't the case at regular shows.
We always hear of horses that were/are pulled from the Olympics or from going in the first place because of lameness. But the question is, if it wasn't the Olympics and it was just a normal GP would it still compete? My answer to that is probably. Most of those horses have chronic problems, that require a lot of knowledge and care to keep them sound and competing.
That was my job, keeping horses sound so they could continue to compete. I wasn't doing stalls, grooming or turn out. I busted my arse 24/7 doing that job along with schooling/hacking etc. It was a fine line to work on, keeping the Rider happy, so they could keep the owners happy because everyone wanted to see these horses competing at the highest levels and winning.
Ever seen someone 5'2" pitch the biggest fit possible because a horse was schooled or shown to early and ended up lame again? That was me, fighting for those horses.................

There are countless older racehorses, but most of them are retired early so they can be bred. Considering that the Jockey Club doens't allow, A.I or any other artificial breeding/gestation practices, they can't wait until a mare is 10 +, and because of the big money they also want to recoup what they have invested.

 

[Dekka]

I dunno...

I think I am with BB on this one. There are loads of articles some from within the TB industry about breeding 'disposable horses' and they sheer numbers of breakdowns at tracks. Seems like back even 20 years ago there was still more of a push to breed horses that would last.. now not so much.

If you look across the pond steeplechasers don't seem to hit their 'stride' (hahah punny) until they are 10. This is why a lot of event riders and show jumpers like the irish tbs.. they have more bone and tend to stay sounder longer. They have too.

Yes people want to recoup money.. that is why there is such a push to race them so young. TBs don't race at 2 cause it is the best for them, they race at two because its cheaper by a long shot than keeping them even another year before racing.

Show jumping does have its dark side.. everything does. But its not 'large numbers' being pumped through. Yep horses are drugged at the highest level.. one of my best friends has worked all over the world with some of the top show jumpers and eventers. (she was Darren Chiacchia's show groom when he had is horrible fall) I hear all kinds of things. But I don't hear about horses bones disintegrating or breaking as they gallop and jump. They sport horse world is not breeding in huge excess and shipping the failures, or the oldies of to meat the way the race world is.

Yes there are some great people in racing.. just look at who is sponsoring some of the horses in at Long Run.. jockeys, trainers etc. But so many slip through the cracks. You go to a local auction and there are always a fair number of horses going cheap/meat with tattooed lips.

 

[adojrts]

I didn't say there were not disposable horses or high numbers of them, which is terrible.
What I am saying is if there was as much money in Sport horses or other breeds, that there would be.

 

[Dekka]

Maybe.. but there is large money in Europe.. and they don't (for what ever reason) seem to breed disposable horses (less land to stick the babies on?)

Money is a large part of the issue but not all of it.

 

[Sweet72947]

That big long post that adojrts posted, um, with all the horse lingo in there I didn't understand half of what was said. I think that's part of the problem, if you want the general public to get angry about poor horse treatment, you need to explain it in a way people will understand.

What is tacks in boots and bells?
What is blind bars?
What does hanging a leg mean?
What is a spread?
What is an oxer?
What is painting cornet bands?
What is wrapping?

etc...

 

[BostonBanker]

What is tacks in boots and bells?
What is blind bars?
What does hanging a leg mean?
What is a spread?
What is an oxer?
What is painting cornet bands?
What is wrapping?

Tacks in boots - The big "public" airing of something similar was when a top rider had his horse's boots checked (normal at an international competition) after leaving the ring. The steward checking found several pieces of sharp plastic on the ground after the boots were removed. The rumor was that they were under the boots during the competition. Thus, if the horse banged a jump with the leg, the plastic would dig into his legs painfully and make him snap them up quicker afterwards. Don't remember what the final outcome on those hearings was; I was already out of the hunter/jumper world at that point and not following carefully.

Blind Bar - For what it's worth, I'm not sure exactly what that means. One of two things, I'm assuming. Either the jump was set up after a blind turn (basically, the horse comes around a corner and the jump is there with little time to react) or it is a bar on the top of a jump that is very difficult for the horse to see. In either case, I don't believe that was what caused the accident. I know someone who was there when it happened, and although I am the first to think the worst of George Morris ( the trainer who was teaching when the horse died), after hearing from the person who was there, I'm willing to put it off as simply a tragic accident.

Hanging a leg - when a horse goes over a jump and leaves one leg dangling rather than pulling it up tight. At best, it'll pull a rail down. At worst, the horse can catch the jump and flip himself.

A spread and an oxer (I use the word pretty interchangably, but there may be a specific difference) are both jumps that are both high and wide - they require the horse to jump both up and across.

Painting coronet bands - the coronet band is the living tissue that attaches the horse's hoof to the leg. It's a thin band of very sensitive tissue right around the top of the hoof. Although it is technically illegal, it was (and I assume still is) common to paint the area with an irritating solution. That would make in inflammed and sensitive. I usually hear about it in terms of horses like Tennessee Walkers, where they are supposed to move in very flashy ways. They would irritate the area, then put a light chain on the ankle, so that it would bounce on the sore area every step, and make the horse snatch their feet up in reaction.

Wrap in this case I think should be rap - basically bang. When the horse bangs into the fence with their leg, you say they rapped the fence. At least that's how I've always seen it spelled.

I think Ado hit the nail on the head - the more money that is involved in each sport, the more you see things like that happening. Racing has the most money riding on it, so you see more people who are staking a lot on the abilities of an animal.

But I wasn't really looking to say "this sport is meaner than this other one" or "it's okay that horses suffer abuse in the name of one sport, because the other sports do it too". There are always going to be jerks looking to make money at all costs in every sport. I just feel like there are a lot of things in racing that even the people who really are trying to do the best by their horse are forced into, because it is basically an industry standard. I'd like to see the industry make some changes that could allow everyone to take a closer look at the horses they are producing and how they are living their lives.

if you want the general public to get angry about poor horse treatment, you need to explain it in a way people will understand.

Actually, I don't know that I do want the general public getting all wound up about it. I think that's when you get the Animal Rights "I saw one accident so it should be banned" people being involved, and nobody in their right minds wants that. It's up to the people involved in the sport, who have years of knowledge and research, to make changes that make sense. Heck, even I'm speaking for years of experience with horses, but not enough knowledge about racing specifics to say "Things should be done exactly like this". I just know enough to know that there is a lot I don't like.

 

[Sweet72947]

Thank you bostonbanker for explaining those terms for me.

People are horrible, aren't they?

 

[Miakoda]

I personally cannot wait to watch the show. I love horseracing, albeit more in it's primitive form. I love the TB and watching a horse run for the joy of running is intoxicating.

Sure there's a lot wrong with the industry and there is a lot wrong wrong with the breeding of some of the horses themselves (Big Brown's lineage is known for bad feet and so is he).

But it's not all bad. IMO it's again one of those situations where people choose to believe the media and base their opinions on the picture presented to the general public versus looking deep into ALL the owners, ALL the trainers, and ALL the horses. But that's an enormous field all the way across and it would take time.

I've been to a few races at the New Orleans Fairgrounds and also at Louisiana Downs. I've had the pleasure of following around an Equine Physiologist for 2 days to see if that was an avenue I wanted to pursue. To be honest, the "low budget" owners and trainers I came across that day were amazing. They were friendly, they were open, they loved horseracing, but most of all they loved their horses. And these were people who would never see the likes of a Derby winner unless God put it right in front of them and told them. But still they lived for running.

And while jumping and eventing and TWs are mentioned, I wanted to invite anyone and everyone behind the scenes of Barrel Racing. Again, that's a sport that I can show you the dark, ugly side very easily as that's the avenue I originally went down. People run lame horses. They just run and run and run a horse until the horse can no longer go, then they get rid of that horse and hop on their next prospect. They amp horses up with God knows what. You name it, I've seen it. But yet, it's not all like that and not everyone is like that.