If Martin Richling and Ceaser Milan don't know how to train dogs...
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J
In some cases, the proper term is called selling out.
Others have only been trained in the positive only, and treat training methods, and do not do the ultra advaced stuff.
Puppy, basic, and intermediate are all they ever train in, so there is no need for them to step it up a notch.
Trainers who make a living training have to give the public what they want. Most of us people are very nice, and reasonably gentle people, we do not want to hurt any creature, or cause them any discomfort. In general, people are just nice.
That is why so may people treat their dogs like little furry humans, and why the pet industry has grown into the many billions of dollars per year in sales that it achieve, and why haltis, and gentle leaders sell so well
With that mentality, that only leaves postive only, and treat training for them.
I do not know anybody who enjoys, even making a small correction in the form of a leash tug.
So if a trainer wants to make money, then he does positive only, or treat training. and it does not matter how the training works for most people as they will never really need to put the training to work anyway.
You get a dog to come on command most of the time, and to walk sort decent on a leash, and sit when the owner has a treat, and they are happy. At least until some problem crops up. For most dogs there is rarely a problem.
Most people just want a dog to wander around the house, that they can pet on, and talk to in coochie coo tones. And I have no problem with that.
I do the same stuf
Now, for those of us who want a bit more out of our dogs, there are the old german methods, they have workd for many years, and continue to work.
Positive only, and treat trainng are not that different from the old germans methods, except the positive only, and treat methods are only part of the old german methods.
The old germans methods are simply the rest of the story, or the missing part of the training picture.
That is not a slam on positive only, and such training, if that is all you want. But if you really want to set the training, and make it work reliably, then for many dogs, you have to go a step further, and go a few chapters farther on.
Early training for a dog in the old german methods is no different from treat training, or positive only training, even in the books you can get on the subject ,treats, praise, and other rewards are used to get the dog to the point that he knows the command, and obeys them most of the time.
I personally choose not to use treats at all, as many of my dogs never liked treats. I also feel a treat should be a treat, and not pay for working.
My dog is not an employee.My dog will get fed well whether he is good or not.
He is a member of my family, and therfore he will eat as well as any of us, regardles of his behavior.
Another issue I have with it is that for treat training to work best, and at highest efficiency, your dog has to be somewhat hungry, and I don't operate that way, which is why my dogs don't care much for treats.
I do however give them food off my plate, if they want some, or part of my Mcdonalds hambuger. One of my dogs likes an occassional taste of Killians red beer.
I just give these things to them, because I like my dogs, and all good things come from the master.
The correction part that some of you dislike, and carry on about does not come until much later. I believe that in the first class I ever took in this method, that there were no corrections for somethng like the first 4-5 weeks of a 6 week class.
The correction is simply a response to a refusal to obey a command.
They are taylored to the needs of a the individual dog. some dogs just get a light tug, others get a pop, still others get a snarly tone of voice, just whatever the dog needs
If you feel a 70%, 50%, or even 90% obediance average is OK, then by all means do whatever you want. If you, for any reason at all, want 100% reliability, then the next step in training is the proper, and wise use of corrections to achieve the goal.
7 out of 10 times reliability........ well that just got your dog killed 3 times.
A well thought out post.. But I don't buy the it takes *physical* correction to step in up a notch. I regularly beat dogs that are trained the Koeler way, and other 'balanced' aproaches. I find a can sculpt the finished behaviour.
Positive training does not mean no consequences!! It can be very harshly applied. The book Rough Love by Susan Garrett is controversial, because some see it as very strict/harsh. But no P+ is used. Positive training does not mean treats. It is about rewards. Lots of dogs don't care about food. Food is just convient. I share my food if I feel like it with my dogs. Kaiden was fed free choice while we trained obed.
As I stated in a previous post...the leash corrections were making my dog's heeling issues worse. When I stopped the corrections, the lagging disapeared. He went on to get his CD winning every time. He was the Canadian National Champion JRT 2 years running (the only 2 years we competed) My other dog was Reserve Champion those 2 years as well. This is an intact young JRT male. We are not talking a breed that has been bred for hundreds of years to work with people.
Positive training does not mean no consequences!! It can be very harshly applied. The book Rough Love by Susan Garrett is controversial, because some see it as very strict/harsh. But no P+ is used. Positive training does not mean treats. It is about rewards. Lots of dogs don't care about food. Food is just convient. I share my food if I feel like it with my dogs. Kaiden was fed free choice while we trained obed.
As I stated in a previous post...the leash corrections were making my dog's heeling issues worse. When I stopped the corrections, the lagging disapeared. He went on to get his CD winning every time. He was the Canadian National Champion JRT 2 years running (the only 2 years we competed) My other dog was Reserve Champion those 2 years as well. This is an intact young JRT male. We are not talking a breed that has been bred for hundreds of years to work with people.
J
That is fine, and I would peacefully discuss the ins, and outs of both methods all day, and even watch you work your dogs.
I like Jacks, I have a cairn, so I know a little of what a Jack is like.
A cairn is about one degree below them in general mischief making.
I will probably always want to have one around. Although, I suspect something seriously amiss with a person who has mulitiple Jacks,
which is not uncommon with Jack owners. 50 pounds of Jack equal about 3 tons of dogs. What hoot they are. What is wrong with you people. hahaahahaha
How do you manange, Is there a certain medication for Jack owners.
My Cairn was trained in the old German style 12 years ago, and to this day she is still a well trained little dog, when we trained her, she require hardly any correction at all, as she was oddly hard headed, but would do anything for a verbal praise. Still pretty much the same way today. My other two, well they are a bit harder dogs.
I still walk her off leash much of the time also, although it drives my wife crazy when I do it.
She is a typical little terrier, never met a stranger, and the worlds greatest pal. Her level of training would be somewhere around upper intermediate, as that was all I wanted.
I am not familar with the book you mention, but will check into it, as it probably is interesting, because it is controversial.
I like Jacks, I have a cairn, so I know a little of what a Jack is like.
A cairn is about one degree below them in general mischief making.
I will probably always want to have one around. Although, I suspect something seriously amiss with a person who has mulitiple Jacks,
which is not uncommon with Jack owners. 50 pounds of Jack equal about 3 tons of dogs. What hoot they are. What is wrong with you people. hahaahahahaHow do you manange, Is there a certain medication for Jack owners.
My Cairn was trained in the old German style 12 years ago, and to this day she is still a well trained little dog, when we trained her, she require hardly any correction at all, as she was oddly hard headed, but would do anything for a verbal praise. Still pretty much the same way today. My other two, well they are a bit harder dogs.
I still walk her off leash much of the time also, although it drives my wife crazy when I do it.
She is a typical little terrier, never met a stranger, and the worlds greatest pal. Her level of training would be somewhere around upper intermediate, as that was all I wanted.
I am not familar with the book you mention, but will check into it, as it probably is interesting, because it is controversial.
Aren't most things that are controversial interesting
I have many friends and people I respect who still train the old school way. While we disagree on dog training, and have some good discussions (which I hope make both parties think) we still get a long. So I love debates =o)
Yes terrier people are almost as strange as our dogs. There are days when I would like a breed that 'cares' what humans want. Usually when I am dog sitting my friends BC.
The book is really good. Its about how she took a totally out of contol dog and ended up at the worlds with him.
I have many friends and people I respect who still train the old school way. While we disagree on dog training, and have some good discussions (which I hope make both parties think) we still get a long. So I love debates =o)
Yes terrier people are almost as strange as our dogs. There are days when I would like a breed that 'cares' what humans want. Usually when I am dog sitting my friends BC.
The book is really good. Its about how she took a totally out of contol dog and ended up at the worlds with him.
P
Right. Like I believe you Yeah I bet you don't whack the dog in the rear like they do to horses
I don't intend to believe a word you say
Yeah I bet you don't whack the dog in the rear like they do to horsesI don't intend to believe a word you say
dekka i will look at that book you posted.
and richling is not a cult leader and i did not make it sound like he brainwashed people. people at the beggining of bad trainer beware started that. Where is swilson?
If you fear for my dogs so much then come and see that what we are doing is not abuse before you start calling it that.
Over my dog's dead body will ever visit your torture hell hole, I agree with Dekka, your small minded group of Martin Richling are a cult
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