If Martin Richling and Ceaser Milan don't know how to train dogs...
- Thread starter Emmalee
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Purdue..You are a broken record.. We have pointed out people who are doing what Mr Richling does, but are internationally renknown, and have more credentials. They don't use P+. But you ignore those posts. I have pointed out that the military has been using R+ in some sectors (of training animals to be used in combat situations) since WW2 and you ignore that as well.
You don't add anything to these conversations. You don't give examples, or anecdotes, training techniques, or talk behavioural theory.
You are your own worst enemy in these threads. You make MR look like a cult leader who brainwashes people. Some of his other students have came in and made good arguments. Not that I aggree with them, but at least they have useful things to say.
If you wish to keep making MR look bad, keep posting what you are. But I feel bad for you, since you like him so much.
Your above comment shows this. It doesn't matter at what stage you hit your dog. Why is it more acceptable to hit your dog later in training? I know you don't start yanking right away. No one suggests you do, but perhaps you don't read all the threads.
You don't add anything to these conversations. You don't give examples, or anecdotes, training techniques, or talk behavioural theory.
You are your own worst enemy in these threads. You make MR look like a cult leader who brainwashes people. Some of his other students have came in and made good arguments. Not that I aggree with them, but at least they have useful things to say.
If you wish to keep making MR look bad, keep posting what you are. But I feel bad for you, since you like him so much.
Your above comment shows this. It doesn't matter at what stage you hit your dog. Why is it more acceptable to hit your dog later in training? I know you don't start yanking right away. No one suggests you do, but perhaps you don't read all the threads.
Purdue, no one has ever said that his methods don't get results. Of course they do. All that everyone else is trying to say is that there are other ways! If RIchlings methods were the best and only true way don't you think for a moment that the majority of dog trainers in North America would be using these methods? Why is it that most professional trainers and behaviorists do not agree with this. Please answer this...
Yes, of course they say that. These kinds of forceful, intimidating, coersive "methods" put a dog into fight or flight mode. Their autonomic nervous system goes into gear and their cortex takes a back seat. Adrenaline rises, heart rate and blood pressure increase. Hormones responsible for an animal's survival flood the brain and rest of the central nervous system. Fight or rather flight (fight, since fight is not an option) is what fills the dog and everything else drops off. No thinking or reasoning is possible. The dog needs all of his energy to escape. If this were not so, no animal could survive, reproduce and evolve. And we all know how successful dogs have been. Well, he can't escape so what do you have left?
This is one reason why these so called "methods" are so dangerous. Not only are they grossly unfair and completely not taking into account a dog's nature or cognitive ability, they put humans at danger.
Sure, it appears that many behaviors are stopped. And they are for a time. But how? The dog can not escape. Then dog usually is prevented from attacking because most of the time the human (Cesar) is stronger and more scary. So the dog gives up and falls into what is called "learned helplessness." He shuts down. He can't learn when he's in this shut down state. AND he can't learn anything when his physiological/central nervous system is getting ready to flee from or fight with his attacker.
This is why there are regressions with the dogs Cesar Milan trains. They ARE dogs that show stress signs to anyone who really knows dogs.
Cesar Milan does not know behavior. Obsessing over pack theory is irrelevant with a human/dog relationship. And Richling is even worse. He's really not taking any dog behavior into account. NONE.
This is one reason why these so called "methods" are so dangerous. Not only are they grossly unfair and completely not taking into account a dog's nature or cognitive ability, they put humans at danger.
Sure, it appears that many behaviors are stopped. And they are for a time. But how? The dog can not escape. Then dog usually is prevented from attacking because most of the time the human (Cesar) is stronger and more scary. So the dog gives up and falls into what is called "learned helplessness." He shuts down. He can't learn when he's in this shut down state. AND he can't learn anything when his physiological/central nervous system is getting ready to flee from or fight with his attacker.
This is why there are regressions with the dogs Cesar Milan trains. They ARE dogs that show stress signs to anyone who really knows dogs.
Cesar Milan does not know behavior. Obsessing over pack theory is irrelevant with a human/dog relationship. And Richling is even worse. He's really not taking any dog behavior into account. NONE.
Well isn't this an interesting thread? You know what I think? I think that if somebody wants to bully their dog into doing what he or she wants, we should just go ahead and let them do it. Later, when the dog eats your face off, we will discuss how big and strong and dominant you thought you were, submit your name for the next Darwin Award, and call it a day.
Go for it!
Go for it!
what we do in training needs to be taught to the handler. it's most important to train the human over anything else. good training means consistancy. to physically correct a dog does not cause a dog to fight or flight. i know, i do the training and i've seen hundreds of dogs graduate. sure, if you were whacking your dog for no reason, not being consistant with him, or being unfair then YES the dog will bite you and as he should. this is why milan says "please don't try this at home". you can't just impliment these methods without first being taught the correct way to do it.
i have tried your methods of treat training and even (can't believe i am saying this) tried clicker training and it does not work 100% of the time everytime. do you know what you get when you are putting a dog in a sit stay and there are cars around with a training method that only works 30%, 60%, or even 90%? you get a dead dog and i no longer wanted to take that chance. i can't risk recalling my dog and pray that he listens this time. i wouldn't put him in that line of danger. that is what i think is inhumane. i would also never try to bribe my dog into listening to me- my dog is smarter than that.
point is, when i take my dog to the park peoples jaws drop in amazement at what my dog is capable of. why? because there aren't many dogs out there that can do what my dog does. you just don't see it much these days. i wanted a dog that i can take anyplace with me. i never have to leave him behind because i'm afraid of how he will react to other enviroments. my doberman is so well trained that he can even go to work with me. gasp! i mean wouldn't any dog lover/owner love to be able to do that? have a buddy that can always be by their side no matter what?
i have tried your methods of treat training and even (can't believe i am saying this) tried clicker training and it does not work 100% of the time everytime. do you know what you get when you are putting a dog in a sit stay and there are cars around with a training method that only works 30%, 60%, or even 90%? you get a dead dog and i no longer wanted to take that chance. i can't risk recalling my dog and pray that he listens this time. i wouldn't put him in that line of danger. that is what i think is inhumane. i would also never try to bribe my dog into listening to me- my dog is smarter than that.
point is, when i take my dog to the park peoples jaws drop in amazement at what my dog is capable of. why? because there aren't many dogs out there that can do what my dog does. you just don't see it much these days. i wanted a dog that i can take anyplace with me. i never have to leave him behind because i'm afraid of how he will react to other enviroments. my doberman is so well trained that he can even go to work with me. gasp! i mean wouldn't any dog lover/owner love to be able to do that? have a buddy that can always be by their side no matter what?
The only problem is that the dog will end up with the shortest end of the stick....happens every time.
There are a kazillion trainers out there who rehabilitate and keep animals from getting euthanized every day....all over world. And they use positive methods, not force and bullying. Many of the dogs Cesar thinks he's rehabilitating have been shown to explode and regress somewhere along the line. It's all Hollywood schmooze that you see on TV. It's all propaganda to promote HIM. They say, "Dog behavior expert, Cesar Milan." Or "dog psychologist." That is just a lie. He has NO training and very little knoweldge of real dog behavior. He's basing all his schmooze on out-dated, debunked wolf pack behavior and thinking that the human should emulate a wolf, doing what wolves actually DON'T DO.
Granted, I have seen him do a couple of things that I think are good and fine. But as someone, I think a behaviorist said in something I read, (I'll try to find it) "I don't need to eat the whole salad to find out that parts of it are bad." In other words, he is not doing anything so special. There are better ways practiced by real trainers/behaviorists etc.
There are a kazillion trainers out there who rehabilitate and keep animals from getting euthanized every day....all over world. And they use positive methods, not force and bullying. Many of the dogs Cesar thinks he's rehabilitating have been shown to explode and regress somewhere along the line. It's all Hollywood schmooze that you see on TV. It's all propaganda to promote HIM. They say, "Dog behavior expert, Cesar Milan." Or "dog psychologist." That is just a lie. He has NO training and very little knoweldge of real dog behavior. He's basing all his schmooze on out-dated, debunked wolf pack behavior and thinking that the human should emulate a wolf, doing what wolves actually DON'T DO.
Granted, I have seen him do a couple of things that I think are good and fine. But as someone, I think a behaviorist said in something I read, (I'll try to find it) "I don't need to eat the whole salad to find out that parts of it are bad." In other words, he is not doing anything so special. There are better ways practiced by real trainers/behaviorists etc.
Zanadu...missed your post when I wrote my last one. You may have done something wrong...skipped over a phase too fast. My dog has an exceedingly reliable down stay for as long as I want him to stay, regardless of what's going on around him. I do not ever put him at risk of being hit by a car. I don't care what methods someone uses. That is just not necessary for a pet dog. My dog has been trained using the science of learning devoid of harsh aversives. All motivation and reinforcement. He has a reliable recall, stay, whether I'm in sight or not...for a long time. He halts and downs in the middle of a dead run when in mid chase of another animal or will come when called. This has been at about 97% I would guess. I don't care about any better than that. He's a pet and I avoid putting him into dangerous situations.
Just as my whole theme here has been, sometimes the ends don't justify the means. That's my philosophy. I know it is different than people who really want to use dogs, such as police, but I know that there are many police units turning to +R now and the results are stupendous. They must be used correctly to get the reliability. And not everyone knows all the ins and outs. It is true....takes some time to really learn. I'm still learning. But that is the same with anything which takes an education. Yanking and cranking on a dog does not take anything more than muscle and hopefully some decent timing.
Just as my whole theme here has been, sometimes the ends don't justify the means. That's my philosophy. I know it is different than people who really want to use dogs, such as police, but I know that there are many police units turning to +R now and the results are stupendous. They must be used correctly to get the reliability. And not everyone knows all the ins and outs. It is true....takes some time to really learn. I'm still learning. But that is the same with anything which takes an education. Yanking and cranking on a dog does not take anything more than muscle and hopefully some decent timing.
Zanadu,
Personally I'd rather have a dog that does what I say 70% of the time out of desire for praise or reward, than a dog that does what I say 100% of the time out of fear.
Also, don't you think:
applies to treat training/clicker training as well? If you tried it as someone elses method, or a method you don't believe in, then how do you know you were doing it right? Maybe it isn't the method's fault that it wasn't 100%, maybe it was yours.
Personally I'd rather have a dog that does what I say 70% of the time out of desire for praise or reward, than a dog that does what I say 100% of the time out of fear.
Also, don't you think:
applies to treat training/clicker training as well? If you tried it as someone elses method, or a method you don't believe in, then how do you know you were doing it right? Maybe it isn't the method's fault that it wasn't 100%, maybe it was yours.
the world is full of dangerous situations. just last week i was driving quite a distance with my dogs in the car. i had to pull over to let one of my dogs (who violently needed to go poo) out on the side of the road. i had been driving for quite sometime to find a rest stop with no luck. so, i pull over, open the doors, tell my dogs to "wait", let them out and put them in a sit. now with traffic speeding by us a disregard for one of the commands would have resulted in a dead dog and a very heart broken owner. the world is full of more situations like that and we are prepared for them. most of the time doesn't cut it for me. sorry. we will have to agree to disagree.
i'd just like to add something before i go. (taking my boxing gloves off)
if you only need your dog to listen 97% of the time then that is fine with me. i however want more. i dont want my dog sitting at home alone all day while i go run errands, go jogging, go to cookouts, etc. i am training for more. its all what you want out of your dog and your relationship with him.
if you only need your dog to listen 97% of the time then that is fine with me. i however want more. i dont want my dog sitting at home alone all day while i go run errands, go jogging, go to cookouts, etc. i am training for more. its all what you want out of your dog and your relationship with him.
Gasp! I, too, have a dog that goes everywhere with me, including to work every day. I can call my (highly prey-driven, hunting breed) dog off of rabbits, squirrels, and deer. I could let her out of the car on the side of the highway and know she is going to stay glued to my side. When I take her somewhere that she needs to be on-leash, I have to hunt for one, because she is never on one unless it is required due to the location. She doesn't pull on the leash when she gets there. She can be polite and sweet and charming to every person she meets. Little kids can run her through her tricks, and she will respond happily. And I can assure you, I have never hit (or spanked, or struck, or shocked) her. Gasp!
I do appreciate that several of you who have come into the midst of this mess have responded with polite, readable replies. I certainly don't agree with you or how you train, but I can appreciate a discussion on almost any topic as long as the name-calling and insults are kept to a minimum.
I do appreciate that several of you who have come into the midst of this mess have responded with polite, readable replies. I certainly don't agree with you or how you train, but I can appreciate a discussion on almost any topic as long as the name-calling and insults are kept to a minimum.
That's what leashes are for. I leave a leash on my dog when we drive somewhere or I have it coiled up in the back of my Subaru next to him.
No dog, no matter how well trained is 100% reliable. That's because they're living things and not machines. There is always at least a 1% chance that something will out-do the motivator that you have always used to make your dog very reliable. My dog, as I said is exceedingly reliable. But I would NEVER EVER let him out on a highway with speeding cars going right past him. That's just irresposible IMO. Yes, we will have to agree to disagree. Positive methods when used correctly and to their fullest are every bit, if not more reliable and long lasting. This has been demonstrated time and again by world reknown trainers and behaviorists. There is no question about it.
No dog, no matter how well trained is 100% reliable. That's because they're living things and not machines. There is always at least a 1% chance that something will out-do the motivator that you have always used to make your dog very reliable. My dog, as I said is exceedingly reliable. But I would NEVER EVER let him out on a highway with speeding cars going right past him. That's just irresposible IMO. Yes, we will have to agree to disagree. Positive methods when used correctly and to their fullest are every bit, if not more reliable and long lasting. This has been demonstrated time and again by world reknown trainers and behaviorists. There is no question about it.
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