I'd heard of ear pinch, but toe pinch?
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Oh my god Sara, you would cringe SO bad at that guy. He is completely pompous, so full of himself and his dogs, can not sit back and laugh at himself if things don't work out right and is just a bad trainer who thinks he walks on water.
I got dragged into his "creative pos only" class once and it was a train wreck and he no ideas for how to go about something if the first way didn't work and still was completely in the OB mindframe of not actually training something full proof but rather making a routine out of it that the dog could memorize.
We were doing recalls and I asked if we were doing it from downs or sits and he stares at me for awhile and then goes "But.....recalls are done from sits. That's how you do them. Always"
Or when they started heeling I told him I would sit out since it was like 15 minutes of heeling and Traveler wasn't even 5 months. He could NOT understand what I was talking about when I said I was going really slow and working on focus and small steps for heeling.
Ok, this has nothing to do with anything, just ranting.
No, it's not.
I got dragged into his "creative pos only" class once and it was a train wreck and he no ideas for how to go about something if the first way didn't work and still was completely in the OB mindframe of not actually training something full proof but rather making a routine out of it that the dog could memorize.
We were doing recalls and I asked if we were doing it from downs or sits and he stares at me for awhile and then goes "But.....recalls are done from sits. That's how you do them. Always"
Or when they started heeling I told him I would sit out since it was like 15 minutes of heeling and Traveler wasn't even 5 months. He could NOT understand what I was talking about when I said I was going really slow and working on focus and small steps for heeling.
Ok, this has nothing to do with anything, just ranting.
No, it's not.
Really nicely put Sara. I get being competitive, but taking joy out of someone's difficulties is just... I dunno... not very PR? 
I'm not in to debating, but I am in to understanding.
If I understand how a dog is trained with an ear pinch, it helps me understand the dog better if that dog shows up in my training group as a crossover dog.
If I understand why people prefer one method over another, I can help ease their anxieties over trying a different method.
We currently have a gal in class trying PR for the first time ever. She is *very* apprehensive about a lot of things, we talk about how she used to do things and how you can accomplish the same thing this way. Its not a "right" / "wrong" issue, she has already decided how she wants to train this puppy, and she just needs reassurance that it indeed will work.
And I kindof lied - I do enjoy a good debate, but I'm not in to people feeling attacked or like they have to be defensive. That's not what this is about...
I'm not in to debating, but I am in to understanding.
If I understand how a dog is trained with an ear pinch, it helps me understand the dog better if that dog shows up in my training group as a crossover dog.
If I understand why people prefer one method over another, I can help ease their anxieties over trying a different method.
We currently have a gal in class trying PR for the first time ever. She is *very* apprehensive about a lot of things, we talk about how she used to do things and how you can accomplish the same thing this way. Its not a "right" / "wrong" issue, she has already decided how she wants to train this puppy, and she just needs reassurance that it indeed will work.
And I kindof lied - I do enjoy a good debate, but I'm not in to people feeling attacked or like they have to be defensive. That's not what this is about...
Again, I'm only speaking to service dogs because that's pretty much all I know, LOL.
Softer breeds who would shut down? Would most likely be washed out of training for fearfulness in public. "Soft" is a temperament trait, and will come up in other areas, not just retrieve training.
More opinionated dogs who would bite your face off? Also would get washed out of training for aggression. Or for being too difficult for a novice/disabled handler to work with. There is a certain amount of bidability service dogs HAVE to have. An opinionated dog can be taught bidability certainly, but will probably fall back on it when placed with a handler who isn't as good as, say, a professional trainer.
Your GDs muscling their way away? For one thing, there are many reasons why we don't use 140-lb dogs, this is just one. Also, dogs that just decide to leave when they're not particularly happy with the situation are probably not going to make good service dogs.
So, point is, when you're discussing service dogs' retrieve training, all these are basically moot points.
Softer breeds who would shut down? Would most likely be washed out of training for fearfulness in public. "Soft" is a temperament trait, and will come up in other areas, not just retrieve training.
More opinionated dogs who would bite your face off? Also would get washed out of training for aggression.
Or for being too difficult for a novice/disabled handler to work with. There is a certain amount of bidability service dogs HAVE to have. An opinionated dog can be taught bidability certainly, but will probably fall back on it when placed with a handler who isn't as good as, say, a professional trainer.Your GDs muscling their way away? For one thing, there are many reasons why we don't use 140-lb dogs, this is just one. Also, dogs that just decide to leave when they're not particularly happy with the situation are probably not going to make good service dogs.
So, point is, when you're discussing service dogs' retrieve training, all these are basically moot points.
Sorry, just had to say this totally cracked me up. I went from a British school to an American HS. It hit home
Thank you, this is exactly as I thought. If the method doesn't work, you wash the dog instead of trying something else. (Though, granted, I agree with washing a dog destined to be a SD who can't tolerate that kind of stress.)
Again, I'm only speaking to service dogs because that's pretty much all I know, LOL.
Softer breeds who would shut down? Would most likely be washed out of training for fearfulness in public. "Soft" is a temperament trait, and will come up in other areas, not just retrieve training.
More opinionated dogs who would bite your face off? Also would get washed out of training for aggression. Or for being too difficult for a novice/disabled handler to work with. There is a certain amount of bidability service dogs HAVE to have. An opinionated dog can be taught bidability certainly, but will probably fall back on it when placed with a handler who isn't as good as, say, a professional trainer.
Your GDs muscling their way away? For one thing, there are many reasons why we don't use 140-lb dogs, this is just one. Also, dogs that just decide to leave when they're not particularly happy with the situation are probably not going to make good service dogs.
So, point is, when you're discussing service dogs' retrieve training, all these are basically moot points.
Softer breeds who would shut down? Would most likely be washed out of training for fearfulness in public. "Soft" is a temperament trait, and will come up in other areas, not just retrieve training.
More opinionated dogs who would bite your face off? Also would get washed out of training for aggression.
Or for being too difficult for a novice/disabled handler to work with. There is a certain amount of bidability service dogs HAVE to have. An opinionated dog can be taught bidability certainly, but will probably fall back on it when placed with a handler who isn't as good as, say, a professional trainer.Your GDs muscling their way away? For one thing, there are many reasons why we don't use 140-lb dogs, this is just one. Also, dogs that just decide to leave when they're not particularly happy with the situation are probably not going to make good service dogs.
So, point is, when you're discussing service dogs' retrieve training, all these are basically moot points.
Really?
Pretty sure we'd get faster results for potty training if we smacked kids for getting it wrong..... In fact, I'd wager my next months rent on it.
Or perhaps if we gave them a shock if they wet in their pants. Hmmmmmm.... I may start advising this on my visits. Totally acceptable. If we consider a dog as on par with your average 2 year old?
Pretty sure we'd get faster results for potty training if we smacked kids for getting it wrong..... In fact, I'd wager my next months rent on it.
Or perhaps if we gave them a shock if they wet in their pants. Hmmmmmm.... I may start advising this on my visits. Totally acceptable. If we consider a dog as on par with your average 2 year old?
I've been following this thread and finally went and watched the video. It seriously made me want to cry. My dad used ear pinches/twists to train his first dog and that made me want to cry too. Especially the way the dogs passively resist - I can't believe how tolerant dogs are of humans. I don't really have anything of value to add to this thread, just had to comment on the video.
Yish, I have stayed here for 6 years to troll. If I wanted a reaction I'd liken you all to Cesar Milan, or a Nazi - that seems to be the usual tact.
Or how about A) we know a dog's intelligence is high, B) we know we wouldn't consider using those things on a being of equivalent intelligence (maybe we should start shocking/pinching dolphins(toddlers).. I don't doubt people already do ) such as a human child - or do we think species determines treatment and C) there are alternatives.
I do however like your approach - I don't know what I am talking about. Clever, throws the (somewhat assumed) message out to others reading this to ignore.
Very pro-"poke that which speaks differently".
Should I bring my own stake and match?
I don't hold kids higher than dogs when it comes to pain/uncomfrotable-ness (word?). I am not talking "rights".
Or how about A) we know a dog's intelligence is high, B) we know we wouldn't consider using those things on a being of equivalent intelligence (maybe we should start shocking/pinching dolphins(toddlers).. I don't doubt people already do
) such as a human child - or do we think species determines treatment and C) there are alternatives.I do however like your approach - I don't know what I am talking about. Clever, throws the (somewhat assumed) message out to others reading this to ignore.
Very pro-"poke that which speaks differently".
Should I bring my own stake and match?
I don't hold kids higher than dogs when it comes to pain/uncomfrotable-ness (word?). I am not talking "rights".
Yish, I have stayed here for 6 years to troll. If I wanted a reaction I'd liken you all to Cesar Milan, or a Nazi - that seems to be the usual tact.
Or how about A) we know a dog's intelligence is high, B) we know we wouldn't consider using those things on a being of equivalent intelligence (maybe we should start shocking/pinching dolphins(toddlers).. I don't doubt people already do ) such as a human child - or do we think species determines treatment and C) there are alternatives.
I do however like your approach - I don't know what I am talking about. Clever, throws the (somewhat assumed) message out to others reading this to ignore.
Or how about A) we know a dog's intelligence is high, B) we know we wouldn't consider using those things on a being of equivalent intelligence (maybe we should start shocking/pinching dolphins(toddlers).. I don't doubt people already do
) such as a human child - or do we think species determines treatment and C) there are alternatives.I do however like your approach - I don't know what I am talking about. Clever, throws the (somewhat assumed) message out to others reading this to ignore.
I appreciate RTH and Emily taking on this topic because they're covering it much better than I could.
The forced retrieve has it's origins in retriever work. While I agree the motivational retrieve gels well for most controlled environments the real world is not a trial and there are few prizes for coming in second. The major advantage I see in the forced retrieve is that when (not if) your dog refuses a retrieve you have the ability to quickly get the dog committed on the retrieve again because in the real world when there is a dead duck bobbing on water you really don't have the time to convince or work the dog up that the water isn't that cold, the guys over there shooting aren't a problem, and the half dozen other dogs on the field aren't a problem. This is why so many motivational trained retrieve trained dogs often are followed up by proofing via e collar or compulsion.
How important is it that the dog completes the retrieve every time irl where there isn't a rosette on the line? Depends on how hungry you are I suppose because there is no going back to the shop to practice, practice, practice - the work is needed now.
This isn't about who loves their dogs more, frankly I find the suggestion that there is somehow a link between the two rather disgusting. It is about training and using what works. If it doesn't gel well with you - great! don't use it with my blessing. I don't want anyone to use any technique they're not 100% comfortable with - to be honest I don't use the forced retrieve either - but it doesn't mean I can't acknowledge it works - it works well for those who choose it - the dogs don't seem worse for it.
I watched the SchH ones (which were awesome) but was avoiding the pinching cause I've seen it in real life. And, like I said, it makes me sad. For whatever reason, e-collars (when used properly) and pinch collars don't bother me as much. They don't cause as much pain and they (I think) actually are able to mitigate the reflexive "DO IT NOW" over-reaction that some trainers get when the dog doesn't obey the first time. But watching an adult willingly inflict harm (and the pinches hurt - my dad's dog used to scream) on an animal they love...just ick.
I'm not asking about proofing with compulsion, I'm asking about teaching it with compulsion to begin with. Big difference between teaching a behavior and proofing an understood behavior.
Do you seriously know anyone who would go hungry if their dog failed to retrieve? And even if such a person existed, could they afford or have access to an ecollar?
I missed where this was brought up. If it was, I agree, certainly doesn't add to the conversation.
Do you seriously know anyone who would go hungry if their dog failed to retrieve? And even if such a person existed, could they afford or have access to an ecollar?
I missed where this was brought up. If it was, I agree, certainly doesn't add to the conversation.
Difference = you're talking HISTORY. I am talking NOW.
You assume I have no idea how dog training STARTED out. Fine, cool, brill (assumption). I am actually referring to TODAY. Not way back when, when we had to use dogs to fill our belly and we didn't have the time to be nice about things.
Times change. Methods change. There was a time children were seen and not heard.
I have an emotional reaction because I am emotional, I am not inciting a response. If you know me, then you know this IS me. But that is not a prerequisite to even attempting to understanding my position I don't require you have sat with me and learnt what my favourite colour is (rainbow).
Hows abouts thinking about the NECESSITY of these things in the modern age.
I know a lot of things WORK to get a result, the question is, just because it works, does that mean we HAVE to do it?
You assume I have no idea how dog training STARTED out. Fine, cool, brill (assumption). I am actually referring to TODAY. Not way back when, when we had to use dogs to fill our belly and we didn't have the time to be nice about things.
Times change. Methods change. There was a time children were seen and not heard.
I have an emotional reaction because I am emotional, I am not inciting a response. If you know me, then you know this IS me. But that is not a prerequisite to even attempting to understanding my position
I don't require you have sat with me and learnt what my favourite colour is (rainbow).Hows abouts thinking about the NECESSITY of these things in the modern age.
I know a lot of things WORK to get a result, the question is, just because it works, does that mean we HAVE to do it?
Its tough to watch even if you don't know there's an alternative.
I remember years ago with our mutt dog Mel. He was trained old school, great dog, super smart, great obedience, etc. Two reasons I never competed him. a) he was a mutt and I didn't know about other venues, and b) I saw what it was going to take to get him competition ready, and I just couldn't bring myself to do that to my dog. Yep, I'm a wuss
I remember years ago with our mutt dog Mel. He was trained old school, great dog, super smart, great obedience, etc. Two reasons I never competed him. a) he was a mutt and I didn't know about other venues, and b) I saw what it was going to take to get him competition ready, and I just couldn't bring myself to do that to my dog. Yep, I'm a wuss