I really need training help

[aussiegirl]

I have a 5 month old Aussie named Charlie. I love him to pieces and want him to be the best he can be but I am not sure I know how to make this happen.

We enrolled in classes at the local Feeders Supply and we went weekly for 6 weeks. We pratice daily and he does great during class and as long as I have snacks--cheese being his favorite.

When the cheese is gone so is Charlie. It is like he forgets everything he has learned unless he has cheese. Oh he may sit a few times without cheese and I praise him and we play and I pet him. Then later in the day I ask him to sit before he gets his food and he looks at me like I am crazy--I wont give him food until he sits which he finally does.

I guess what I really am asking is; how do I train now? I have used a prong collar for a few mins and he responded well but I felt horrible while using it. He is so smart that he figures out the system and says--ahhh she doesnt have snacks so I dont have to listen, what is she gonna do, no collar on me, so she can't tug it, what now, what is she gonna do but stand there looking foolish until I come in from the garage--ha ha ha-

He really is smart and I feel really defeated.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

 

[Dekka]

Was the training lure based? IT seems like you are bribing vs rewarding. Have you tried the clicker?

 

[Charliesmommy]

Another Charlie from Indiana! Welcome! You will get some good advice here.

 

[aussiegirl]

Dekka--I am not sure what kind of training we did. I am so confused with everything. It was taught by Waggin Tails Obieience training. We learned how to make our pets sit , etc... and then reward them for doing so..so i guess reward.

We gave them a treat that we kept in a pouch on our hip or in a bag on our person.

Charlie knows when he see's the bag what is in it and he knows when to be a great boy.

 

[Dekka]

This is why I don't suggest bait bags... But my question is how did you teach them to sit? Did you take a cookie and hold it over his head? And for down did you lure him with a cookie. This type of training often produces a dog that only preforms if he sees food. Its not that they are being sneaky or bad, its just that food was part of the 'picture' when doing those behaviours.

Clicker training (using a clicker to a verbal marker) is much better. Check out www.clickersolutions.com There are lots of good books too that you can get. If you do a search here on chaz, you will find many recommended books.

 

[CelticxConnections]

I'm not an expert by any means but I might be able to help.

I would get rid of the bag. Have a few treats in your hand and work with him, posible starting (almost) all over. Get him use to the idea that you don't have to have the bag on you to have treats. The fade the treats out, so that he only gets one every 5 times he sits, then 10, then when ever you remember.

One thing that worked to get my new puppy to lie down was the rapid fire game. Basicaly you rattle off three comands, such as heel, sit, down. When they do that drowned your dog in treats, and praise. Then repeat a few times. Once your dog does this perfectly add a few more comands such as heel, sit, down, stay, come, heel and praise.

 

[Maxy24]

Start with the command he knows most and slowly wean him off treats. When he sits give him a treat then skip treats the next two times and just give the treats randomly so the dog does not know if he is going to get a treat or not so he should do it anyway (still give him verbal praise every time). Eventually he will do these out of habit and you can still give him the occasional treat and praise when you happen to have one. Also don't show the treat before you give him the command, that is bribery. Have it behind your back or on a table next to you when you give him the command and then give it to him when he obeys.

 

[OhMyDog]

Give him treats randomly. Keep him guessing. I can't remember where I read this (I think it was a Karen Pryor's Don't Shoot the Dog).. think of it like this.. Person A works in an office for X amount of dollars every paycheque. Person B works in an office for X amount of dollars every paycheque as well as bonuses for a job well done! Who's going to work harder and enjoy work a little bit more? Think of the paycheque as your praise. Praise comes every time.. guarenteed. The random bonus is the cheese!

Good luck!

 

[Dekka]

I wouldn't wean off treats that fast..I am not confident the dog understands (as seen by a slow response to sitting for his dinner. But even better than having food in your hand, is stash treats around the house..then ask for things. If he performs grab the nearest stashed cookie and give it to him. Once you are sure he understands then yes random reinforcement for contingent (correct) behaviour is the best way to go.

Oh and your dog may or may not care about praise. I tell my dogs they are pretty special on a regular basis, so it is not a valuable reward. But I had a dog that I 'rescued' she had been neglected as a pup, she found praise very rewarding.

 

[heartdogs]

Dekka--I am not sure what kind of training we did. I am so confused with everything. It was taught by Waggin Tails Obieience training. We learned how to make our pets sit , etc... and then reward them for doing so..so i guess reward.

We gave them a treat that we kept in a pouch on our hip or in a bag on our person.

Charlie knows when he see's the bag what is in it and he knows when to be a great boy.

It sounds like all you need to convince him of is that the food is a reward (comes after the behavior you ask for), and not a bribe (comes before). So, to start, you might want to ditch the bait bag. I sometimes have a treat concealed in my hand. But (and here's the part that might make a diff for him), sometimes I hide treats on top of the fridge, on a bathroom shelf, in a cupboard, etc. When I ask my dog to "sit". if she does it, I use her "marker" or "bridge" word (you can say "good" or "yes", or use a click) and then we both run to get the treat. The idea is that she never knows where the treat will come from. Next, I start spacing out the treats, so she only gets one for every third or fifth behavior. (Google "variable schedule of reinforcement").
I think you have either just misunderstood the use of food in training, or the instructor didn't explain it well enough for you. And, sometimes, in group classes, it's the same as in school - the teacher means well, but not all the students learn at the same rate. An Aussie or a BC might need only a few repetitions of an exercise before you would want to start spacing out the treats, but a BMD or a PWD might need a few more. So, while your classmates are still on the learning phase, you should have been in the VSR stage. It tells me you have a smart dog.

 

[Jammies]

I also took a dog through the training at Feeders....with the same result. How long do you have to have treats stashed all over the house? What if you need the dog to obey and there is not a treat nearby? How do you enforce your command when you know the dog knows it but is willfully disobedient? I have truly never figured this part out.

 

[Dekka]

If you have trained the dog well, they will obey. Dogs do what works, they aren't 'willfully disobedient' even if it might look that way to a human. Dogs are honest, they do what has worked for them in the past. (good books are culture clash, don't shoot the dog, shaping success, etc)

It takes as long as it takes lol. Once the dog is reliably performing the behaviour then you only reward (praise is often more of an indicator than a reward) randomly. IE I hardly ever reward sit, touch, or down anymore. But things like (in the agility ring) contacts, weave entries, and call offs, are still rewarded often (but not every time) Rewards don't have to be food or toys. They can be anything your dog wants. Your dog comes up for some scratches..say sit..no sit, no scratch. Going out for a walk..sit or dont' open the door etc etc. For my stud dog, peeing is a reward

For your question of "What if you need the dog to obey and there is not a treat nearby?"
That shouldn't matter. The dog should never know if you have a treat or not. (That is the reason for stashing the treats) The dog never knows when it might get rewarded, so its always worth listening

 

[heartdogs]

Ditto what Dekka said. If I think my dog is being willfully disobedient I ask myself if the dog really understands the exercise, did I proof the exercise well enough, and have I changed the context. Sometimes, a dog knows perfectly well that "sit" means "sit" if the human is facing north in the living room LOL. But, if you take the dog into the back yard or down to the beach, he isn't sure.
That's the reason for "taking it on the road" and proofing a behavior in all different locations and situations. Does that help?

 

[Doberluv]

Treats are used both as a prompt and a reinforcer. As a reinforcer, food has a way of becoming strongly associated with you. Because food is so effective as a lure, you can have trouble weaning your dog off of it. Make it clear in your own mind whether it is being used as a lure, a prompt, a target or a reinforcer, (the thing that comes after the behavior is performed.) If you hold a treat in your hand, allow the dog to sniff it and then back away, you have lured or prompted his approach. If you give the food after his coming to you, you have used it as a reinforcer. Two distinct roles. Problems like you're experiencing happen when the dog learns that food in it's role of reinforcer is only likely when food is present in it's role as a lure. This is why it is so important, as soon as the dog is performing a lured behavior with regularity, to change things up by doing the following: Once he's learned the basics of a behavior, such as sit, down and stand using a lure, start practicing without a lure...an empty hand. Signal a sit. Wait. When the dog sits, give a food treat hidden in your other hand held behind your back. Then signal a down, again empty handed. Wait a few seconds, with your hand still in the signaling position. If he doesn't go at all for these empty handed tries, lure a few more without reinforcing, then try again. The idea is that the dog learns that not seeing a lure is more likely to produce a reinforcement than seeing a lure. Teach the dog that absence of the visible lure is better at producing food.

Your dog has learned right on schedule, the way all animals learn. He has learned that what he does works. Do get the behavior reliable and consistant before going to a variable reward schedule. In other words, reinforce every sit for some time until he is perhaps 95% reliable.