house training question

[wcladymacbeth]

This is a question concerning what to do if you find a mess, but you didn't catch your dog in the act.

I know most of you will say "it's your own darn fault for not watching your dog at all times!"

Of course that's true, but come on... we all have times when we get a bit distracted and Fido sneaks away to do bad things behind your back. Dogs are smart.

When I first got Maggie, I scoured the internet for advice (the best site I came across was DEFINITELY Chazhound). But there was one site, I forget what it was, but the advice stuck in my mind. I haven't tried it yet, but I wanted to know what you guys think. The site said that when you find a fresh mess but you didn't catch your dog in the act, you can put your dog on a leash and take her to the room that it's in, and then scold the mess but NOT scold your dog.

I'm finding that I somewhat disagree with the notion that dogs forget what they did after they've done something wrong and so you shouldn't scold them. Though I have generally not scolded my dog unless I literally catch her in the act, but it's usually for chewing something she's not supposed to and I just have to say "drop it" so it's not really scolding. But last night, she snuck off and chewed up a shoe while I was making dinner. I thought she was in her usual hiding spot under the table, but then I knew something was wrong when she came belly-crawling into the kitchen, and sure enough, there was a chewed up shoe in the other room. I hated that pair anyway so I didn't say anything to Maggie, I just ignored her for a little while.

 

[Herschel]

The site said that when you find a fresh mess but you didn't catch your dog in the act, you can put your dog on a leash and take her to the room that it's in, and then scold the mess but NOT scold your dog.

I'm finding that I somewhat disagree with the notion that dogs forget what they did after they've done something wrong and so you shouldn't scold them. Though I have generally not scolded my dog unless I literally catch her in the act, but it's usually for chewing something she's not supposed to and I just have to say "drop it" so it's not really scolding. But last night, she snuck off and chewed up a shoe while I was making dinner. I thought she was in her usual hiding spot under the table, but then I knew something was wrong when she came belly-crawling into the kitchen, and sure enough, there was a chewed up shoe in the other room. I hated that pair anyway so I didn't say anything to Maggie, I just ignored her for a little while.

Most of this might be BS, but here goes:

Some dogs (both of ours) DO realize when they have damaged something or chewed on something that isn't "theirs". However, that doesn't mean that they understand the concept of punishment. If you think about it, it's actually a fairly complex thought process.

The dog needs to realize:
1) The shoe belongs to the human, it is not mine.
2) I should not chew on the shoe.
3) The human does not like me when I chew on the shoe.
-------------Our dogs get to this point----------------
4) Chewing on the shoe makes the human act different.
5) The human acts crazy and scares me after I chew on the shoe.
6) I do not like it when the human scares me.
7) To avoid being scared by the human, I should not chew on the shoe.
8) Lesson learned: The human acts scary when I chew on certain things.

Dogs don't (and can't) understand the concept of "wrong". As a result, scolding them for something based on OUR value system is useless. My response when my dogs do something like that? I say, "Nala..." or "Herschel..." and point. For some reason, pointing at them and looking them in the eyes gets the message across. I am comfortable taking my dogs to step 3 because I think they understand that much. (They understand that chewing on something that isn't theirs = stare/point. That makes them uncomfortable so they avoid instigating it.)

I think you've said in previous threads that Maggie is very submissive. With soft dogs, you need to be really careful that you don't break their spirit.

 

[Sch3Dana]

My understanding of the problem is that dogs live exclusively in the here and now. That is why timing is the single most important element of dog training. It doesn't matter how good the training plan is, how motivated the dog is or how consistent you are, if you don't time your rewards and corrections to correspond very closely to the behavior you are trying to influence, you are very unlikely to make a dent in the behavior. In the case of rewards, whatever. But when you are talking about punishment, poorly timed corrections are very stressful and confusing for the vast majority of dogs and are unlikely to ever make a dent in the behavior you are trying to correct.

Saying this, some dogs do seem to learn this way. I suspect in most cases when it works, it is a very smart dog and what happens is that the dog make an unpleasant association with an object or location. So, you find the chewed shoe, yell and holler, and Maggie may develop an aversion to shoes, or even specifically chewed shoes. The next time she runs across one in the house, she may avoid chewing on just bc she feels nervous being around it. This is very different from her learning to avoid chewing.

In any case, with a very sensitive dog like Maggie you need to be very careful with corrections. If you do correct it should be after she thoroughly understands what you want from her and refuses to do it (which can sometimes work wonders with dogs who quit bc they are afraid). You should never correct her when she is confused or in the process of learning what you want from her. This will teach her to fear you and fear training and will set you back in all of your hard work on training and socialization.

Maggie's world needs to make sense. Do not correct her for the chewing unless you correct her as she picks up the shoe. And if she wanders off without you noticing, keep her on a leash in the house so you can keep track of her better. Tie her to you or your chair or make some tether points in all the rooms you spend time in with her. Those should be puppy proofed and allow you to take your eyes off her without any worry that she will do something she shouldn't.

 

[adojrts]

So what would you have done had they been your most fav pair of shoes???
We are the only ones to put a value on objects to the pup or dog it is just something else to chew. If the next time it is something that you value a lot more than a pair of hated shoes are you going to just ignore her? Even a verbal correction wouldn't be fair then. Because it is us that puts a value on 'things', then it is our responsiblity to ensure that the dog/pup doesn't chew it.
It is possible to raise a dog and not have them chew up anything. That is the real world in my world. If I can't supervise a chewer or a pup, then I put them away until I can. I proof the house as much as possible. And something that works very well, is I have stuffed bones that I give them when I get busy making dinner etc. I have a mat by the back door, give them the stuffed bone (only time they get the bone is when I know I will be distracted) on the mat. You would be surprised at how quickly they will go to the mat and wait for you to get busy!!

 

[cinnamon]

So what would you have done had they been your most fav pair of shoes???
We are the only ones to put a value on objects to the pup or dog it is just something else to chew. If the next time it is something that you value a lot more than a pair of hated shoes are you going to just ignore her? Even a verbal correction wouldn't be fair then. Because it is us that puts a value on 'things', then it is our responsiblity to ensure that the dog/pup doesn't chew it.
It is possible to raise a dog and not have them chew up anything. That is the real world in my world. If I can't supervise a chewer or a pup, then I put them away until I can. I proof the house as much as possible. And something that works very well, is I have stuffed bones that I give them when I get busy making dinner etc. I have a mat by the back door, give them the stuffed bone (only time they get the bone is when I know I will be distracted) on the mat. You would be surprised at how quickly they will go to the mat and wait for you to get busy!!

Right on
\

 

[wcladymacbeth]

Thank you for the MOST valuable input, guys. I'm glad I haven't corrected her any more than ignoring her for a little bit after she acted guilty for chewing the shoes. I do realize that if it was a more favored pair of shoes, I very well may have acted differently. Last week she chewed up an expensive window covering and I got upset at her when I know I shouldn't have. I feel like I am being trained as much as Maggie is. That's why I'm so grateful to have people to ask here that do know what they're doing.

I feel like there was really no way to prepare myself for having a dog prior to actually having a dog, so I do appreciate your nonjudgmentality (is that even a word?). I have a lot to learn to train Maggie and I know that we will both benefit from obedience training which we will start in a couple weeks.

I'm also very glad that you guys understand the kind of dog Maggie is and give me advice accordingly. I do not want to break her spirit at all. I can see that she has such a good potential to be a well-behaved awesome loving cuddly wonderful sweet dog... if only I can figure out how to bring it out in her, especially with other people. She does need some gentle discipline, the kind that will only make her more confident. She is really, really smart. That much I have figured out.

I'll be honest and say that Maggie would probably be much better off with a more knowledgable master who could guide her to be so well behaved and probably a very happy dog. But I got her from a shelter where she was in a crate 5 days of the week, and at her foster mom's for the weekends, so I still feel like I'm at least better than that, and I do give her LOADS of love and I'm trying really hard to be patient with her. I think she's at least happier than she was - she always seems SO happy to see me (but only me), all wiggly and licky and she rolls on her belly for me now too. She's so cute.

Anyway, until we both get some obedience training, I know I'll probably make some mistakes and so will she, but she's going to be an excellent dog in the long run. I'm teaching her to sit and wait before crossing the street because pretty soon we'll be living close to downtown and city walking will be more important and more dangerous. She's learning fast, too... I couldn't be prouder of this dog. Despite her chewing. But chewing is a natural dog instinct and I don't want her to feel afraid to chew, only to know she's only supposed to chew certain things. I still have a lot of work to do to puppy-proof things in my house.

 

[adojrts]

Something else that I do that has worked very well for is Bitter Apple. It can be purchased at most pet stores.
When a dog or pup starts to chew something, I distract them and then spray the BA on what they were chewing. The BA doesn't not stain and I have used it on antiques with no problems or curtains etc. I do not prompt or direct the pup/dog back to chewing because I don't want to encourage it, but if they start to chew again the fresh BA quickly makes them stop and they typically don't chew that item again. I then quickly give them a stuffed bone etc for them to chew. BA doesn't work for all dogs, but I have never had that problem and it has worked for me.

 

[Sch3Dana]

I've had very few clients who reported success with bitter apple, although I'm sure it works for some dogs. Boundary spray does work better as does a product designed for parrots.

 

[lizzybeth727]

I'll be honest and say that Maggie would probably be much better off with a more knowledgable master who could guide her to be so well behaved and probably a very happy dog.

OMG, the fact that you are HERE, asking questions and taking advice, makes you a better trainer than probably about 90% of dog owners. All of us, at one time or another, don't believe that we deserve the dog that we have, that's perfectly normal. Keep doing what you're doing, and keep learning, and you'll continue to be the best owner Maggie has ever had.

That said...

I know most of you will say "it's your own darn fault for not watching your dog at all times!"

Of course that's true, but come on... we all have times when we get a bit distracted and Fido sneaks away to do bad things behind your back. Dogs are smart.

Yeah, dogs are smart.... But humans are smarter. One challenge of owning a dog is learning how to outsmart the little bugger.

And yelling at the potty mess? I've never heard that before and don't believe it would do any good whatsoever.

 

[wcladymacbeth]

Thanks guys

I did manage to keep a closer eye on Maggie last night with the use of the leash. There were just a couple times she picked something up she shouldn't have, and she dropped it just as soon as I said "leave it" and then I gave her a toy. She's so smart... I bet she'll have it down in a few days.

No potty messes in over a week. I take her out fairly frequently but lately I've been trying to give her a chance to "tell" me when she wants out. How do people get their dogs to actually sit by the door and whimper when they want outside? Do they do that naturally or are they trained to do that? My mom said her dog just kinda started doing it. Maggie can hold it for a long time it seems.. the first week and a half we had her, she'd whine in the morning at like 6:30am when she wanted to go outside, but after a while I got up intuitively before she started whining so she wouldn't wake anyone else in the house up. Then on Saturday I didn't wake up until 8:30 and thought for SURE I was going to come down to a mess and was wondering why she didn't whine, but she was just fine, no messes at all. She had held it for the whole 10 hours I was in bed (what can I say, it was Saturday!) And no whimpering, whining, howling, nothin'..

I want her to know that when we're home, she doesn't HAVE to hold it for hours, she can just tell us and we'll take her outside. How do I get her to tell us?

 

[Storee's Mom]

My dogs usually don't 'ask' to go outside, apart from lately where it's three am and one needs to go. Which I'm getting annoyed with, both are fully grown already!

I just make a point of getting them out several times a day, when it works for me. I'll put them out, get some things done around the house, then let them in. If it's nice out, they can be outside most of the day. If they bark too much, I'll go and remind them to be quiet, and usually it's not an issue. Because they've never figured out to ask to go out (unless they really really have to), they also don't 'ask' to come in.

I also don't have scratched up doors from them clawing at them either. Which works well here.

Lana

 

[wcladymacbeth]

We don't have a fenced in yard here, although we're moving soon to a new place where she'll have some good backyard romping grounds. So right now I just have to take her outside on the leash. That's why it would be nice if she would just tell me when she wants outside. When it's raining outside, Justin and I both hate it when we take her outside and she doesn't even potty. I can handle other kinds of inclement weather, but I hate cold rain when she doesn't even have to go!

 

[Sch3Dana]

I am the worst at remembering to take the dogs out. I get busy with something and hours go by. I absolutely require dogs to tell me when they need to go. And I start training them from puppies to do it. I leave them in the crate in the morning until they whimper a little. Then I "notice" them and rush them out for a potty. I do the same thing with them on a leash in the house. I teach them to whine and bark at me, not at the door. This prevents the scratching on the door, and it prevents you from missing the signal when you are too far away to hear. We all know the dogs that wait by the door forever and finally piddle there bc no one ever noticed! So, teach Maggie to tell you, not the door.

You do need to make sure that the vocalizations don't lead to play time or walks or you will end up with a really annoying problem.

There is a long article about this sort of training on my housebreaking site. There are two methods listed, the one that would be best for Maggie is probably method #1. Here's a link if you want to check it out:

http://www.thehousebreakingbible.com/training/barking-training.htm

 

[wcladymacbeth]

Thank you Dana. That method #1 sounds perfect since Maggie is for the most part house trained now. But she relies too much on me reading her mind This morning when I got up, she REALLY had to pee, so bad that while I was putting my coat and shoes on and she KNEW she was about to go out, she peed on the floor right in front of me!! If she would've just whined this morning when she first had to go, I would've gotten up and taken her out, but she just held it until I got up.

 

[cinnamon]

My sheltie loovvvvesss obedience and agility classes. We've done some clicker training which she enjoys also. She is such a smart dog, sometimes I feel so stupid and feel bad that she has such a dumb owner

Breezey rings a bell to go outside. Sometimes she will ring it just to go out and eat snow or if she wants to bark at the world, but I really like the bell system. It worked great for my last sheltie also.

 

[wcladymacbeth]

She is such a smart dog, sometimes I feel so stupid and feel bad that she has such a dumb owner

Ha, I feel the same way.

I can't wait to get us some obedience training. It's one of my priorities for her in the next month or 2. I think she would enjoy agility too but that'll have to wait.

I love that idea about the bell. How on earth did you train her to do that?

 

[cinnamon]

We did the bell system with my last sheltie because he couldn't figure out how to tell us he needed to go out.

I just bought a bell (for a bird cage) at PetSmart and it's nailed in the trim right beside the door. (I'ts hung by string on the handle on my patio door also). The bell is at her nose level and we just taught her to nudge the bell and voila, the door opens. The first couple of times I had to help nudge to make a noise but she soon got the idea. Ring the bell and the door is opened for her Now if I'm on the computer I can hear her from the other end of the house.

You could put a tiny smidge of peanut butter on the bell to get her to nudge it. Breezey uses her paw to hit it. She's quite the barker so I didn't want her to bark to go out. THe less barking the better

It didn't take long at all--week or so---for her to learn it.

 

[cinmo7]

I have taught dogs to ring the bell also, I had a sheltie that would ring the door bell when she wanted in. I have used it with different breeds and it works well. Another dog would grab his leash or a ball and bring it to me.

 

[wcladymacbeth]

Ahhhhh, I will have to wait for the bell until I have a fenced in yard, I think. Otherwise she'll associate ringing the bell with mommy getting excited and running around bundling up and eventually going outside. It takes so long to prepare myself to take her outside..

 

[cinnamon]

You don't need a fenced yard for bell ringing

I'd say 90% my dog rings the bell at the front door to go out. She'll sit and wait until I slip on my shoes and coat and leash her up and take her out to the boulevard to pee.

I have a fenced back yard but I really don't know why I take her out front all the time. Trained my last sheltie like that also and just did the same with this one.