Great . . . now who do I vote for?

Kat09Tails

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#21
I agree so much. It kind of boggles my mind that birth control is even an issue. And I agree too that we need more input from women and less from men on this subject.
Well birth control is one of those issues which keeps them from having to come up with any kind of reasonable plan for unemployment, the national debt, energy, education (well except Ron Paul at least he's consistent there), tax reform, health care, foreign policy (Remember that Iran place?), etc etc.

I do bask in the humor that a party that is so angsty about government overreach into other people's lives is so ok with the idea of regulating the body functions of half the American public.

As far as Newt is concerned, yes... Cheerful is exactly how I would describe him. ROTFL
 
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#22
I agree so much. It kind of boggles my mind that birth control is even an issue. And I agree too that we need more input from women and less from men on this subject.
ahh because we're not fathers of daughters, married to women or have any part in the act of pro-creation?

I realized when I got married my opinion would matter less and less, but come on, can't we have a little say?
 

Kat09Tails

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#23
ahh because we're not fathers of daughters, married to women or have any part in the act of pro-creation?

I realized when I got married my opinion would matter less and less, but come on, can't we have a little say?
I would say no, just as I should have no say over ED pills, hair replacement, or male fertility. The only things that should require joint agreement is consent to the act along with the consequences of that act whatever they may be.

I do think it's absolutely abhorrent that a candidate for president publicly thinks it's ok to force a woman to carry a rape baby because life is making lemonade out of a lemon.
 

sparks19

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#24
ahh because we're not fathers of daughters, married to women or have any part in the act of pro-creation?

I realized when I got married my opinion would matter less and less, but come on, can't we have a little say?
This.

I never really understood why men don't get to have an opinion. Yes they don't actually go through it but they are the ones that have to put up with us when we do :rofl1:

But seriously... I do agree that men shouldn't be totally discounted and told to put up or shut up basically just because they don't have a period.
 

Puckstop31

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#25
Well birth control is one of those issues which keeps them from having to come up with any kind of reasonable plan for unemployment, the national debt, energy, education (well except Ron Paul at least he's consistent there), tax reform, health care, foreign policy (Remember that Iran place?), etc etc.
LOL

"Reasonable" to whom? Plus, CNN can't very well moderate an actual debate on those topics... It would lead to an actual distinction between most of them and our current "President."

I'm, not jumping up and down about any of the current "R" guys. But I'll vote for Homer Simpson before I vote for Obama. Bury thy head all you want, history will show he is the worst, EVER. Empty suit and a lying hypocrite to boot. In 2008, it was Bush's fault gas was expensive... Today, "It's not my fault." Etc....

He is an empty suit. At least I hope to vote for someone willing to say what they mean and mean what they say, even if I disagree with it.

Do you people REALLY think they would actually support legislation to ban your personal use of birth control? If you do....
 

Beanie

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#26
Rick Santorum actually says right in that quoted chunk that just because he's talking about birth control doesn't mean he wants the government all up in people's business regarding birth control, because he doesn't. Ron Paul said the same thing...
 

Miakoda

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#27
ahh because we're not fathers of daughters, married to women or have any part in the act of pro-creation?

I realized when I got married my opinion would matter less and less, but come on, can't we have a little say?
When a man gets a woman pregnant yet he does not want the baby but the woman does, he gets to pay child support for 18 years.

If a woman gets pregnant and does not want the baby but the father does, he gets to know his baby got thrown out with the trash that night.

That's called "fairness".


With that said, I'm all for birth control being readily available for all who choose it. Heck, I'm a Christian "heathen" (to some anyway) because I've had my tubes tied after my 3rd child.

In fact, I'd be all for tubal ligations and vasectomies being covered on Medicaid if I didn't think it would cost me (all of us) in the long run with a bazillion lawsuits against doctors when a man/woman changed their mind and said that they were forced to have it done. (My own personal OB/GYN is hesitant to do them on women because of the possiblity of lawsuits down the road if/when some of the women change their minds and sue him out of stupidness.)
 

Lilavati

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#28

:rofl1::rofl1::rofl1::rofl1::rofl1:

I LOVE IT!


Frankly, if he gets the Libertarian nomination, I'm probably voting for Gary Johnson.

But I was raised that it was my civil duty to vote, at least in major elections, and so I must attempt to pick a Republican.

And no, I don't think any of them would actually attempt to ban birth control. None of them are actually that stupid. But that doesn't mean that I don't find their rhetoric offensive and the fact that they think it will get them votes bizarre. This is not a conversation we should be having in this day and age, and the fact that they think we should have it shows that their values are fundamentally different from mine.

And they may well throw up barriers to birth control access, and not having it subsidized, in our system as it exists, pre or post Obamacare, is a barrier. I am somewhat agnostic on the whole birth control mandate thing, but I AM seriously annoyed by the whole debate. And this is why:

What goes unsaid is this:

Assuming you are not on Medicaid or Medicare, your health insurance comes from your employer. You employer does this, not because they are nice, but because they get a massive tax break. Therefore, employer-provided health insurance is subsidized by the taxpayer. (note that the self-employed do not get nearly as good of a tax break if they buy their own health insurance)

Your employer provided health care, what is not subsidized by tax breaks, is part of your compensation. Have no doubt, wages are lower because your employer provides health care . . . and they'd rather give you health care because its a good deal for them, see tax break above.

Your employer, and not you, chooses your healthcare plan. Although I am lucky enough to have relatively good choices, I have exactly 4, all from the same provider. If I don't like that provider, tough. If I don't like the plans from that provider that my employer selects, tough. Since buying good health insurance independently is outrageously expensive (all the more so because my wages presume I will get that insurance through my employer) I'm pretty much stuck.

A birth control rider on an existing health plan costs about 10-20 dollars a month, if it is offered at all. See about about employer choosing health plans.

Without health insurance, and assuming you don't go to Planned Parenthood, hormonal birth control, with is by far the most reliable option (excepting sterlization and IUDs) will run you $75 dollars and up a month.

So, what can we deduce from all this?

One, my employer does NOT actually pay for my healthcare. I do and the taxpayer does. My employer serves as a broker. This becomes problematic for the employer if rates go up, because they can't cut my wages to compensate, because we are all pretending that the employer pays for health insurance. The end result is either 1) I don't get a raise or 2) they stop providing health insurance (and oddly, I still don't get a raise!). But, in fact, they don't. Not in the end. In the end, the employee pays for it through lower wages and the government pays for it though lower revenues.

Two, particularly in hard times, I can't really pick my employer. You find work where you can. And thus, I can't pick my health insurance. My employer picks my health insurance. So if my employer doesn't want to cover birth control, without a law saying they have to (or alternately, a law saying I must be offered a rider) I don't get covered for it.

Three, if I am not covered for health insurance, I am paying $75 a month minimum for reliable birth control (unless I visit EVIL planed parenthood). Oddly, this is far more than a rider would cost, which tells me how much it costs the health insurance companies, with their discounted rates, to purchase it for me, which tells me that i am being ripped off. And as a practical matter, birth control is not a luxury. Period. Unless you expect people, including married people, not to have sex, its pretty much a necessity. Because one thing that is more expensive than birth control is babies. And people will have sex. Especially married people (we hope).

So, as a woman, my ability to get birth control at a reasonable price is in the hands of my employer, who does not, in the end, actually pay for that birth control. One, they don't actually pay for the insurance, and two, of course, they are paying for insurance, not birth control. Because one only has so much control over where one works, that means that if I were, say, a nurse, and the available job was at a Catholic hospital, then I would be paying $75 a month or more for birth control, while an identical nurse at a Jewish hospital would not have to pay that. Frankly, that's not fair. And the Republicans in Congress would extend that discrimination to any employer with religious objections ANY treatment . . . beware, if your boss is a Scientologist, you won't be seeing a psychatrist any time soon.

Now, I also think its not fair to make employers pay for health insurance coverage that they find morally objectionable. I think being opposed to birth control is silly, but lots of things people believe are silly. We have a right to believe silly things. And misogynistic things.

HOWEVER, the way our current system is set up, and the Republicans have said NOT ONE WORD about changing this (indeed, they seem convinced that it is the best and freest healthcare system in the world), my ability to get birth control is decided not by me, and not by my husband, or my doctor, or even my parents, but by my boss. And my boss is not paying for my healthcare out of the goodness of his heart, but because our current system is arranged to give him incentives to do that allow him to get tax credits and pay me less. And as a result of THAT system, there is little market pressure on insurance companies to lower their rates, especially their individual rates, and little money in my wages to buy my own health insurance. And because health insurance companies have all negotiated low prices with pharmacists, the prices for people without insurance is much higher.

In other words, the whole reason we need a birth control mandate in the first place is that our system has created a situation where, without it, women have to pay high prices for birth control, and do not have reasonable access to lower prices except through health insurance programs over which they have no practical control. These high prices that would not exist in a free market system, nor, if we had a free market system, would my employer be the one choosing my healthcare.

That is what no one says in this debate. This problem exists because our system is NOT free market and, in fact, creates horrific market distortions. Because of that, we have to debate whether employers have to provide health insurance that covers birth control, which leads to idiots on stage discussing birth control. Because our system has created a situation where there is unequal access to birth control, based not only on income, but on who one is employed by. Which is what the mandate seeks to correct, and therefore, unless they want to fix the system, I'm pretty much forced to support the mandate . . . and point out to say, Catholic hospitals, or random religious employers, that you really AREN'T paying for that medical care you object to.

Oh, and about men and birth control. No. They shouldn't have any say. I mean, of course, I discuss birth control with Mike, and a man has every right to make sure that he's not impregnating the woman he is sleeping with, so that he doesn't end up paying child support.

But Mike has no right to tell me whether or not I can use birth control. Its my body. If he wants to impregnate me, then that's a choice we can make together, or he can bugger off. I will have children, or not, as I choose (or more correctly, I will not have them if I chose not to). If my man does not like that choice, then he can find a woman who agrees with him.

Birth control is not abortion. I can see the argument that a man should have a say in whether a woman has an abortion, because he is the father of the child (I don't agree with it, but that's a different tangent). I also agree that a woman should not lie to a man, and get pregnant on purpose when he doesn't want her too (and SHAME on all women who do that). But the choice about whether my uterus is "available" belongs to me, and to me alone. It is central to my freedom and autonomy. If I marry, then my husband certainly has the right to bring up the subject of children, but he has no right to force them on me any more than he has a right to rape me.
 
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Miakoda

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#29
I've got to hand it to our R and D nominees. They all make Beavis and Butthead look more qualified to do the job.
 

sillysally

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#30
I think I understand what he was trying to say (as Sparks said)...but I don't agree with what he said.

I'm in a committed relationship, but not yet married. I just recently started taking birth control pills because having a baby right now is not really in the cards. Am I having sex outside of marriage? Yes. Does that make me immoral? Some people think so. Would I be taking the pill even if I was married to him (thus, "not being immoral")? You bet. Even if we eloped tomorrow, that isn't going to change our situation - a baby still would not work. And until the time we decide that bringing children into this world is what we want to do, I will continue to be on bc.

So, this:


And I applaud this:
ahh because we're not fathers of daughters, married to women or have any part in the act of pro-creation?

I realized when I got married my opinion would matter less and less, but come on, can't we have a little say?
Why SHOULD you, or any man that is not my doctor for that matter, have any say on a medication that *I* am putting into *my* body--especially as it relates to my sexual health? The BC pill is a specifically female thing. My own husband has very little to do with the form of BC I am taking. He couldn't tell you what kind they were if his life depended on it. He just knows that my OB and I have discussed the options and decided this was the best one. As long as our family planning goals are the same (which they are) I don't think it would even occur to him to try to butt in or alter what the OB and I decided. We do discuss BC, but he seems to know this is my territory and trusts my judgment.

As far as fathers, my BC has NEVER been any of my dad's business, and will never be any of his business, but maybe that's just reflective of the kind of relationship we have.

My reproductive organs, my health, my decision.

Honestly, I think the reason that the pill makes so many uncomfortable is that it is essentially the symbol of female sexual freedom (not saying anyone on here, just in general).
 
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#31
It wasn't a remark so much about BC in particular, but just reproductive decisions in general. I think the overall attitude that it should be all the woman's decision is a bunch of crap.
 

Lilavati

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#32
It won't let me edit, so this is the summary of my rant about birth control, policy, and economics, which I realized is long and confusing.

To summarize, give us a real free market system, and then everyone can pay for their own birth control. Of course, its not quite that simple, but it comes down to this . . . since the government has decided, in its wisdom, that my employer shall decide what health insurance I shall have, and rewards my employer through the tax system for doing so, then the government is within its rights to say that that health insurance, which it subsidizes and which I pay for through lower wages, cover certain things, because I lack either the bargaining power or the financial power to get that coverage for myself . . . and that lack is the governments' doing. If you don't like it . . . then get serious about REAL healthcare reform.
 

Kat09Tails

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#33
It wasn't a remark so much about BC in particular, but just reproductive decisions in general. I think the overall attitude that it should be all the woman's decision is a bunch of crap.
I really don't think it is. A man can decide to have sex, and he can deal with the consequences of that choice. Just as a woman can decide to have sex, and deal with the consequences of that choice. You can stack odds in favor of the outcomes you wish using whatever methods your god and conscience agrees with, but nothing you do will change that actions/inactions have consequences.The consequences do not have to be the same each time or singular, and it's not, as all sex does not result in children, as not all pregnancies result in children (miscarriages happen), and having a kid doesn't mean responsibility must follow (adoption is always possible). But each time you have sex you run the risk of a consequence that may not be ideal in your life - man or woman.

Consequences happen, and sometimes they are far reaching so people should think pretty hard about who they have sex with, and the risks they take with that sex. If you can't deal with the scope of consequences the only safe sex is to love thyself. It's not glamorous but it'll certainly not ask for childsupport, give you an STD, result in a marriage you really would rather not have, a kid you're not ready to care for, or an abortion.
 
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#34
When a man gets a woman pregnant yet he does not want the baby but the woman does, he gets to pay child support for 18 years.

If a woman gets pregnant and does not want the baby but the father does, he gets to know his baby got thrown out with the trash that night.

That's called "fairness".
I haven't logged into this forum due to liberal hippiness in quite some time...but had to just to agree with this post (in the satirical sense I assume you meant it) in every possible way.
 
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#35
Except many fathers dont pay child support....


Sorry, carrying and delivering a baby is different. In the woman's body, its the woman's decision. If a man is that against abortion, bc, whatever, fine...then check before taking the chance of impregnating the woman;)
 

Dakotah

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#39
First let me just say, WOW Liv you write some long posts lol
This has been a very interesting thread.
But I post here just to say:

This thread got me and Tj talking.
He knew I had to go off of my BC until at least late March due to hormonal reasons and my hormone balance being WAY off for my OB/GYN's liking.
TJ knew that when I got off that I could get pregnant. We wear condoms, but we all know they aren't 100% bulletproof, and nothing is.
We KNOW this. But I cannot help what happened. And I will leave that, at that.

Also, I hate Spongebob but he would be a h3ll of a better candidate that these crazy men.
 

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