Differences - Reactivity/Aggression

Zoom

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#41
Sorry, I should have clarified that statement about little dogs better, I wasn't through my first cup of coffee yet and in a hurry. He doesn't automatically "switch on" when he sees a little dog (hence not having problems in Petsmart), but if they are straining on the end of their leads or giving "stink-eye", then it's an issue. But a well-behaved smaller dog is ignored and calmly walked past.
 

Dekka

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#42
I'm a little amazed to hear you talk of JRTs killing one another and not calling it aggression. Do you really believe that a dog can kill another dog without a significant aggressive streak? Am I really the one using the word "aggression" outside the ????
I never said that wasn't. It is. I was using to to say WHY I have such an interest in the topic. These dogs have great potential to be aggressive. So do humans IMO. But potential does not equal deed.

So you are fine with only the 'soppiest' of dogs being around only those that have no prey/defence drive? Cause by your defintition that is all that will be allowed, and I really find that sad. I love trialling and I love my breed. It is this idea that pitties are 'naturally' aggressive that fuels BSL. To me that is why language is so important. Yes I get what you are saying. But to all those people who have pets, and the people who make laws, will they get the differences within the same word? That is why many behaviouralists, trainers etc have started using reactivity to describe what you label as one level of aggression.
 

adojrts

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#43
I'm a little amazed to hear you talk of JRTs killing one another and not calling it aggression. Do you really believe that a dog can kill another dog without a significant aggressive streak? Am I really the one using the word "aggression" outside the ????
Jrts absolutey can be labelled aggressive or have aggressive tendancies, hell it was bred into them and is continued to be bred into them for them to be good hunting dogs. It's why so many people get into trouble with them.
Yes, there have been cases of jrts killing each other and there have been cases of a litter of pups killing the weakest link within the litter. And of course we have whats called Terrier Frenzies, were they gang up on one dog, the little s**ts come running from all corners just to get in on it. It may start out with two have a bit of a scap and then all hell breaks loose. If you are alone when that happens you can end up with a dead or seriously injured dog. And they will or can trigger off of a certain pitch to a scream whether it comes from a person (especially a young hurt child) or another dog or animal, that sound kicks in those drives. And you can't call it anything but aggression. Period.
 

Sch3Dana

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#44
But even if I was to agree with you, and label my dogs aggressive what would that get me? All trial premiums list no aggressive dogs, so no showing. No insurance, and oh my if my dog ever bit someone and it went to court and I said I knowingly had an aggressive dog . I get what you are saying, but I think that is a dangerous route to go, lumping a lot of behaviours under such a 'dangerous' label.
This is politics, not science. Of course you want to put the right spin on it for the general public and the AKC (who have a history of keeping their head in the sand about real dog temperament). And your insurance company. Of course you cannot enter a trial with a dog that may bite a person or a dog while there. But I don't think the AKC makes you declare him completely non-aggressive, they just punish the heck out of you if there is an incident. This seems right and fair to me. It is not the dogs that are dangerous, so much as the handlers who let them get into situations they shouldn't.

But, if we're going to help people handle these dogs properly, I think it would help a lot if we were honest and unafraid of the behavior. The dog isn't bad or abnormal, it's aggressive and that is normal. But, it's not acceptable for most people and the behavior needs to be changed. The reactions need to be changed and the management/control needs to improve. Check out this crazy story:

Some people here in Phoenix bought a malinois puppy from a police breeder as a pet. :yikes: They are really smart, nice people and realized pretty quickly that they could have taken more time to make a better purchase decision. But, like most Americans, they just didn't notice the connection between biting and breeding. Of course, the dog started showing some aggression as soon as they brought her home. They sought me out and hired me to help train her.

The other day they arrived at the park for the fourth lesson and Hazel came out of the car loaded for bear- hackles up, ears forward, growling and straining towards me. Every sign said this dog is aggressive and will bite. When I told the people she scared me and I thought that she might bite me if I tried to pet her in that moment, they were shocked. They said, "you don't really think she would bite someone, do you?" This is a malinois whose parents or grandparents are police dogs. They called me for training bc Hazel was growling and snapping at them at 11 weeks old. I told them on multiple occasions that this dog will almost certainly be willing to bite someone as an adult dog. But they still didn't think Hazel would bite someone.

This is the reason people's dogs bite other people. People do not want to believe that their dog is aggressive bc they equate aggressive with bad. They love their dog and know she can't possibly be bad. So they bury their heads in the sand and ignore all the signals that say their dog might bite someone. They need a wake-up call. THE DOG IS AGGRESSIVE. Now let's fix it. But as long as you sugar coat it, nice people everywhere will act like it's not really happening. They will not be careful and they will not seriously address the problem. Until the dog bites. Then they hire the trainer. But that is really way to late. You need to intervene before the dog has enough experience to get confident about biting. Fixing a dog that is already biting people is generally not all that effective. You need to develop new, acceptable responses to stress when the pup is young.

This is why I am fighting on this issue. I saw all the dogs that were euthanized for aggression when I was working full time as a dog trainer. The pain and heartache it caused was terrible. One of the worst things in the world is to go to a couple's house for an evaluation and see their aggressive dog problem and then hear them say they want to have kids soon. In most cases the dogs are already so far along in their aggression that a complete resolution is not possible. I sat in peoples' living rooms and cried with them while they decided to euthanize their pet, who they loved but was biting people and might be a serious menace to their children. And I think in most cases these problems would have been avoided if the people had called the trainer the first time the dog growled or snapped at someone. But they almost never do. They wait for the bites. And then they call. And by then the dog had had dozens if not hundreds of experiences using their aggression to get what they want. How do you undo that? And how do you tell them to choose the dog over the kids? I personally don't think "he probably won't maul your kids after the training" is an acceptable guarantee.
 

Dekka

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#45
I agree with all of the above. But I still thinking have more labels allows you to get more specific, and get through to people.

Trust me, I have had clients come up and say "But I though he was a 'good dog'" when they come for help after their dog who has never been socialized to kids bites the nephew when he pulls the dog's ears. I do think people need to get away from the Disney type idea of dogs being humans in furry suits.

But I still think reactivity is a good and helpful label when working with dogs and people to over come issues. And to keep them safe from idiot politicians.
 

Sch3Dana

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#46
So you are fine with only the 'soppiest' of dogs being around only those that have no prey/defence drive? Cause by your defintition that is all that will be allowed, and I really find that sad. I love trialling and I love my breed. It is this idea that pitties are 'naturally' aggressive that fuels BSL. To me that is why language is so important. Yes I get what you are saying. But to all those people who have pets, and the people who make laws, will they get the differences within the same word? That is why many behaviouralists, trainers etc have started using reactivity to describe what you label as one level of aggression.
I think we are all understanding each other better now in our language :) But I still think you are interpreting "aggressive" to mean bad. To me, aggression is a necessary part of a dog. I love pits, JRT, mals, etc. bc they are aggressive. A non-aggressive JRT would not be a JRT in my book, he would be a cull. Who would breed non-aggressive terriers or protection dogs? Did anyone see the recent link I posted about the great little staffy who saved his owner's kid by killing the snake that tried to bite her:

http://thehousebreakingbible.com/forum/showthread.php?t=107

Now that is a great dog!!! It's not the aggression that makes dogs bad or dangerous. It is the training. We have to teach dogs when and where aggression is allowed and appropriate. Most of us channel all of it into games like agility, flyball, Schutzhund, etc. But most of us would also love it if our dogs tried to protect us or our home or our livestock in the event of a real attack. Dogs that demonstrate appropriate aggression are called heros. Having Marco in my house allows me to come home in the dark by myself and feel totally safe. I know that no rapist or murderer is hiding in my bedroom when I get there and Marco meets me at the door and I don't see blood ;).

But, those same protective instincts applied to the neighborhood can be a menace. I lived in LA for years, where it is commonplace for homeless people to pop out of bushes and stumble around talking to themselves and acting crazy. Marco had to learn that that was not a threat. Of course he thought it was a threat initially. He was a baby and knew nothing of the world except that his instincts told him to be on the lookout for weird people. Training taught him that he could not make those decisions on his own out in public. That most people are not threatening and that he is not allowed to protect me without permission. Training.

I don't want to select for non-aggressive, weak dogs. I want to select for brave dogs with lots of drive to work and then channel that drive and courage into appropriate behaviors. Of course it's easier to have a fairly non-aggressive dog, like a sheltie. But it's a lot more fun to own and work a dog with a never-say-die attitude about the work and those dogs always have some level of aggression, not just playfulness.
 

Sch3Dana

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#47
Sorry, I should have clarified that statement about little dogs better, I wasn't through my first cup of coffee yet and in a hurry. He doesn't automatically "switch on" when he sees a little dog (hence not having problems in Petsmart), but if they are straining on the end of their leads or giving "stink-eye", then it's an issue. But a well-behaved smaller dog is ignored and calmly walked past.
Yep, then I agree that is sounds like a fairly reactive dog aggression. Except for that part where he barks at submissive dogs to see them jump :lol-sign: Bad dog, bad dog ;) Are you working on reducing it? My idea is to never let it happen. Teach a down or heel with eye contact and have him practice this before he gets stressed enough to begin posturing. Reward him and teach him that aggressive little dogs represent opportunities to earn treats and praise from you. And, of course, try not to let any bad little things run up on him and scare him, that will really set him back.
 

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#48
So you are fine with only the 'soppiest' of dogs being around only those that have no prey/defence drive? Cause by your defintition that is all that will be allowed, and I really find that sad. I love trialling and I love my breed. It is this idea that pitties are 'naturally' aggressive that fuels BSL. To me that is why language is so important. Yes I get what you are saying. But to all those people who have pets, and the people who make laws, will they get the differences within the same word? That is why many behaviouralists, trainers etc have started using reactivity to describe what you label as one level of aggression.
So it's all semantics?

What is fueling BSL is stupid owners putting their dogs in bad situations and the media putting it up in bright lights and flashing colors. It doesn't matter why the dog bites, it just matters that he does. If fear biting is merely "reactive", it's still leaving wounds and making the news. It wouldn't matter what you called it, so long as there was a big-headed dog attached to the story.

Pit bulls *are* naturally more aggressive than many other breeds. Toward dogs, not people. That doesn't make them bad dogs. The more we preach that pit bulls are NOT more aggressive than other breeds, the more people who are not prepared to own them are going to bring them home, and those dogs are going to end up in a heap of trouble because nobody ever told those well-meaning and naive owners.
 

Dekka

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#49
Everything is semantics. The english language evolves. When a new word or description arises, it can create issues.

There is a difference in the dog, there is a difference in how its worked with, and there is a difference in the danger the dog poses. So shouldn't there be a different word.

For example, I am in Forensic/Biotech stuff right? Well we have words and terms that we use when talking to other scientists. But there are different ways of saying things in court so the jury (joe public) doesn't misunderstand us. So while you may think that lumping all lunging snarling biting as aggressive, I think you do many people and dogs a great diservice. If you say a dog that bites for any reason is aggressive, well that means a lot more deaths of dogs, cause you know what people do to dogs who are aggressive?

And we don't do that to humans, that is why we have 'self defense', 'aggravated assault', and 'assault' charges. There are different penalties because we RECOGNIZE the difference. This goes the same for dogs. Yes all dogs have the potential to bite, that is part of being a dog. Just like all humans have the potential to hit. No one here is arguing that.

But it is a lot easier to rehab a reactive dog then an aggressive one. I will willingly take clients with reactive dogs, but refer people with dogs with true aggression to cert behaviouralists.
 

Sch3Dana

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#50
Dekka, if I wanted to learn and use the language of the law and politics, I would study the law and politics and then go to political and legal forums to talk about those topics. This is a dog training forum. I think we are here to talk about and use the language of ethology, psychology, behavioral science and plain old dog training.

As elegy put it so well, "If fear biting is merely "reactive", it's still leaving wounds and making the news. It wouldn't matter what you called it, so long as there was a big-headed dog attached to the story."

Here are some definitions that I do think are important, even though they are not dog training related:

spin
euphemism
doublespeak
 

Dekka

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#51
umm I think you missed what I was saying. I agree with Elegy totally. It doesn't matter what a big headed dog does, its bad. But that needs to change. And I live in a Province that can come steal your dog (yes break down your door) if they think you have a pit bull. There is a reverse onus charge that you must then PROVE your dog is not. Soo in my daily life dogs and politics go hand in hand. And to say that you can separate them, well that is why we are in this mess.

If you want to go on labeling most dogs aggressive you go for it. I will go on labeling dogs (as per previous example) reactive. They are 'reacting' so it is a proper term to use.

We will just have to agree to disagree.
 

Sch3Dana

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#52
Here is an article that might be of interest to the peeps reading this thread:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080114103723.htm

It's title is "Aggression As Rewarding As Sex, Food And Drugs, New Research Shows"

I did send in some feedback asking if we can change the title to "Reactivity As Rewarding As Sex, Food And Drugs, New Research Shows". I'll let you know what I hear back.
 

Dekka

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#53
Sigh... I am sorry I thought you were trying to underst my point, but I guess not. (I tried to understand yours) But that last posts proves you do not. Very good article BTW. And the title is just fine. Ok well there is no point in debating with someone not willing to meet me half way. TTFN
 

Sch3Dana

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#54
Sigh... I am sorry I thought you were trying to underst my point, but I guess not. (I tried to understand yours) But that last posts proves you do not. Very good article BTW. And the title is just fine. Ok well there is no point in debating with someone not willing to meet me half way. TTFN
I really was trying to understand your point. Until you finally made it completely clear that it was a political point. I had suspected that all along, but I thought maybe I was missing something or just not getting it.

It is hard enough to understand one another with an agreed upon vocabulary. But when people keep switching up the words to avoid the truth instead of to pursue the truth it stops being science and becomes politics. And the goal is no longer communication, it's power. That just isn't my thing. I have no problem with you pursuing your politics. But if that's what you are up to, you might give me a head's up so that I don't waste my time trying to communicate with someone who is only interesting in winning.
 

Dekka

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#55
Umm yep..you did miss it. (politics are only part of it. Remove the politics and all the people out there -note I am not the only one- will still use the term)

Did you know the word quaint used to mean intelligent? Funny how things change.
 

Sch3Dana

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#56
Remove the politics and all the people out there -note I am not the only one- will still use the term
Reactive is a description I use all the time. I have malinois :lol-sign: I just don't use it to describe dogs who are killing each other. I guess on that one we will have to agree to disagree.
 

Dekka

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#57
Whoah there no one ever said that dog killing eachother was reactive....! I think you must have missed some posts. I likened it to macing a guy..not killing or even seriously injuring.
 

Sch3Dana

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#58
I found this a few pages back. I added the bold to point out the statement of interest.
And, lol, I live with a pack of JRTs I know what they are capeable of. I know it has nothing to do with me loving them, I know they are dogs. Because of these dogs I have spent a lot of time learning about aggression. Very very very few JRT breeders keep their dogs together, the JRTCA website states same sex JRTs should not be kept together. (I am on JRT lists, and every year, sometimes more often, you here of people who don't listen and keep 2 same sex JRTs together and leave them alone together, coming home to a dead dog) I have been to seminars by the likes of Ian Dunbar, I have read everything I can. I really do think there is a difference, and a significant one.

And even if you do disagree with the common train of thoughts in the dog world ( which is fine, I live for a good debate) In this world of of BSL and people not being able to get insurance, labeling a dog aggressive is a death sentance. Labeling it reactive is not, but it is a warning sign.
 

Dekka

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#59
Yep I said that... Ok but did you read the second sentance? No where did I say it was not aggression.. I actually said because of aggression issues in my breed I have a vested interest in this topic.

Did you read post #42? Well in case you missed it...

this is what you said:
Originally Posted by Sch3Dana

I'm a little amazed to hear you talk of JRTs killing one another and not calling it aggression. Do you really believe that a dog can kill another dog without a significant aggressive streak? Am I really the one using the word "aggression" outside the ????
this is what I said

I never said that wasn't. It is. I was using to to say WHY I have such an interest in the topic. These dogs have great potential to be aggressive.
So please read my posts before you put words in my mouth (urmm or would that be words on my keyboard? :) )
 

corgipower

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#60
In my vocabulary a dog that bites someone is being "aggressive".
I agree.

Is there a general consensus that prey aggression is a form of aggression?
Yes, and I deal with it often in my malinois.

This article is rather long, and I have skimmed it, but I agree with much of what I've read. It discusses aggression and it discusses reactivity. It explains them much better than I can.

IMO, in it's simplest, a dog who is aggressive is a dog who bites or threatens. A dog is reactive if he reacts to stimuli.

Aggression can stem from any number of drives either individually or in combination. Aggression in and of itself is not a bad thing, however society draws inferences from the term.

Reactivity is also a term that many people associate with fear. It isn't always. My malinois is prey/play driven reactive. If I wave a tug in front of her, she is lightning fast to grab it. My corgi is considerably less reactive. If I wave a ball in front of her, she'll yawn, blink, stretch, then start going for te ball. My other corgi is food driven reactive. If he sees food, he's on it in a flash.
 

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