Canine Influenza Vaccine

[elegy]

Anybody giving it?

We had a drug rep in giving his informational speech at the vet clinic where I work. I hate the idea of being sold on a vaccine that I'm skeptical of just because a drug rep talked it up, but at the same time, I'm seriously thinking about vaccinating Luce and Steve. Especially Steve (there are way more dogs at a flyball tournament than at one of Luce's trials).

We have not seen it at the practice where I work. Nobody in the area has definitively diagnosed it. We have stocked it for awhile now because one boarding kennel decided to require it, but then they backed down on it. We haven't given a single dose.

But my dogs go to dog events outside of our local area. They don't come into *direct* contact with other dogs, but apparently CIV is more contagious, lighter, and travels further than bordetella. I know for a fact that there will be dogs at the flyball tournament this weekend from areas in which there have been significant outbreaks of CIV. CIV can travel 20 feet from a sneeze. Bordetella maxes out at 5 feet. CIV is most contagious before the dog is showing any symptoms. CIV can be serious or even deadly.

But I hate the idea of pumping more vaccines into my dogs. I don't give bordetella. I'm thinking about stopping DHLPPs in my bullies. I don't give Lyme, even though there's a ton of it in this area. But this one? I just don't know....

 

[release the hounds]

I think you know the answer to your own question. dogs have been around for thousands of years, so has the flu, but now they need a vaccine even though we dont' ever see dogs sick with the "flu"???

I'd have loved to have been sitting in with that drug rep. It would have been fun.

Seriously, in 20+ years of owning, training, trialing, hanging out with dog people etc, I honestly have never had a sick dog. Even though they put the same sleeves, suits, etc that 20 other dogs have previously in their mouths, drink out of puddles, lakes, streams etc, visit dog parks, go out in public etc and never a sick dog, ever. and I don't vaccinate for anything other than rabies.

I think I'll stick with my plan, I think you should go with your gut as well.

 

[elegy]

this has only jumped from horses to dogs recently. it's also a significantly bigger concern on the east coast than it is in the midwest.

and is therefore riskier because there are so many dogs out there who've never been exposed and therefore have zero immunity. including my dogs.

i'm glad you've never had a sick dog. i'm not sure i'm willing to risk my dog's lives and lungs on your never having had a problem, though. the wrong asymptomatic but infected dog sneezes halfway across the room and my dog could end up in dire straits.

probable? no. possible? sure. the question is, what's the bigger danger? vaccinating or not vaccinating?

i'm not worried about my dog being exposed to twenty other dogs. i am worried about my dog being exposed to several hundred.

 

[release the hounds]

how likely do you think it is that a virus that has infected, pigs, birds, horses, humans etc for thousands of years, just "now" made the jump to dogs, and some company has the magical cure for it?

why buy the sales pitch? they're increasing their markets, they don't give two shits about your pets health. If nothing happens, they don't care and neither do you, if something bad happens, they don't care, there are millions of pets to push this too, there will always be more.

and you really think my dogs are only exposed to 20 other dogs? That's 20 mouths of slobbering spit and, oh my God, Germs all over the sleeve they put in their mouths repeatedly in a single session. I bet some of my older dogs have swapped spit easily with hundreds and hundreds of dogs over their lifetimes, and rubbed elbows and been sneezed at by many more.

 

[Lizmo]

I don't plan on giving it.

 

[corgipower]

how likely do you think it is that a virus that has infected, pigs, birds, horses, humans etc for thousands of years, just "now" made the jump to dogs, and some company has the magical cure for it?

H3N8 was discovered in racing greyhounds in 2004. That is pretty much "just now".

Influenza A Virus (H3N8), Dogs | CDC EID
CDC - Seasonal Influenza (Flu) - Key Facts about Canine Influenza (Dog Flu)


Elegy, I would agree that your dogs are at high risk for the flu, but I don't know much about the vaccine...effectiveness, side effects. I worry about its newness and whether or not sufficient data is in.

I haven't made a decision yet about whether or not it's a vaccine I want my dogs to get.

http://www.cfsph.iastate.edu/Factsheets/pdfs/canine_influenza.pdf

Deaths typically occur in dogs with severe disease; the mortality rate is thought to be 1-5%, although some sources suggest that it may be as high as 8%. Secondary bacterial infections appear to contribute significantly to these deaths. Higher case fatality rates have been reported in small groups of greyhounds. At one Florida greyhound racetrack, the case fatality rate was 36%. High case fatality rates are not expected in most canine populations; however, severe disease is more likely in dogs that are in poor condition or are concurrently exposed to other pathogens

 

[elegy]

how likely do you think it is that a virus that has infected, pigs, birds, horses, humans etc for thousands of years, just "now" made the jump to dogs, and some company has the magical cure for it?

um, stuff like that happens all the time. not necessarily to dogs, but from species to species.

it took them five years after the emergence to magically come up with a vaccine that neither cures nor prevents, but much like the human flu vaccine, tends to lessen both symptoms in the infected dog and the amount of virus shed, which since the dog is asymptomatic while doing most of its shedding, seems important in a multi-dog household with a dog who is involved in multiple dog sports in multiple places.

cp: i'm uncomfortable with the newness, too. the vaccine was released in august. i'm kind of uncomfortable with flu vaccines in general- i don't get them for myself (regular one or swine flu one).

in a study of over 700 real-word dogs vaccinated in real-world hospitals (ie, not lab dogs), there wasn't a single reported side-effect/reaction to the vaccine (the initial series is 2 vaccines, and the study covered both). but that doesn't say anything for the longterm side-effects or subtle side-effects that the owner doesn't see.

 

[release the hounds]

Well I guess that solves it then, by all means, do what you have to do to "protect" your dogs.

Canine influenzas have been around for thousands of years, yet now they need saving I'm sorry, it makes me chuckle how little people actually think for themselves. You work in a clinic that has seen no cases. No cases around you, out of millions of dogs, yet they're all at risk? ok

and this strain, has been around before 2004, at least since the lat 90's, possibly even earlier. So in a decade, the only real population of animals to get sick has been racing greyhounds. I wonder why? and now we're all supposed to be worried? Ok

 

[corgipower]

Well I guess that solves it then, by all means, do what you have to do to "protect" your dogs.

Canine influenzas have been around for thousands of years, yet now they need saving I'm sorry, it makes me chuckle how little people actually think for themselves. You work in a clinic that has seen no cases. No cases around you, out of millions of dogs, yet they're all at risk? ok

and this strain, has been around before 2004, at least since the lat 90's, possibly even earlier. So in a decade, the only real population of animals to get sick has been racing greyhounds. I wonder why? and now we're all supposed to be worried? Ok

Do you have any data to back up those statements??

As for "the only real population of animals to get sick has been racing greyhounds" that is absolutely false. In NJ and NY, many kennels were quarantined, shut down and almost went out of business after canine flu hit them and their clients' dogs. It was devastating. It was incredibly stressful working in boarding kennels at the time. We honestly had no idea why the dogs were sick the way they were. We were sending medical samples to Cornell. I was there. I saw it. I worried. I cried. That was when the flu first hit the general dog population.

Now that it's been around for a few years, the vets can diagnose it and treat it much better.

 

[release the hounds]

"We have demonstrated the virus was in the greyhound population as early as 1999 and we speculate it was likely introduced sometime before that," says Tara Anderson of the University of Florida College of Veterinary Medicine, a lead researcher on the study.

American Society for Microbiology. "Canine Influenza Was Around Earlier Than Once Thought." ScienceDaily 20 March 2008. 9 April 2010 <http://www.sciencedaily.com* /releases/2008/03/080318124104.htm>.

which only makes sense seeing these viruses have been around for millenia, I doubt anything to new is going to "just appear" now. We seem to think they do, because they are new to us, but once they are no longer "new" and have been studied we usually find they've been around for a long time, longer than we realized.

and how do I point to data that dogs aren't getting sick? the only place i've ever heard of it is on the news, kind of like the swine flu, hysteria, panic, stress and for what? nothing, a strain of flu more mild than the year before, yet if you believed what people around the water cooler were saying, and the news stories you'd think we were all going to die.

i'm sure there were outbreaks of something and some dogs probably got sick, and some may have died. Just like they have every year in small pockets and will continue to do so in the future, regardless of what some mass communications major working as a drug rep with no science background at all tries to tell you.

 

[CaliTerp07]

They've had cases in the NoVA area recently. My agility/day care place has signs up that they've had several reported cases from dogs that come to their daycare, and that everyone should be extra cautious about monitoring symptoms. (Basically, if your dog is sick DON'T BRING IT TO DAY CARE!)

 

[xpaeanx]

regardless of when the virus first made the jump, it's just recently starting to become a problem.

I think being active in a the dog world(ie you take your dogs places where they are around lots of other dogs... so trials, boarding, dog parks, etc...) it probably is a good idea to get the vaccine. I don't think I'd add it on to any "annual" vaccine roster, but I don't really like the idea of my dogs first exposure to the virus to be with the live "I'm here to kick your butt" kind.

 

[LittleBigDog]

Here is a report about canine deaths initially reported as being due to the H3N8 flu later being correctly diagnosed as being due to a more dangerous disease to dogs, strep zoo. (Which also jumped from horses to dogs.)

VIN News

Strep zoo is a horrific problem in shelters. Both these diseases jumped to dogs after modified live virus vaccines were used for the diseases in horses. (Mostly for show and racing animals where you don't want them sick at the wrong time.)

I believe the vaccine they are using for canine flu is a killed virus. But then they have to use adjuvants usually, (not sure what is in the canine flu vaccine), and adjuvants are the component thought to be responsible for the vaccine related sarcomas.

I'd certainly research it all for myself. I just hope when they develop a live virus vaccine for one species, especially something like a nasal vaccine for a horse that blows it back all over the place, they test it to be sure that the vaccine will not infect another species. (Like a dog hanging around a stable.) When they give strep zoo vaccine to horses at the same time as injectable vaccines, they are supposed to give the injections first, otherwise they can drive bacteria into the injection site that the horse blew out of its nose from the strep vaccine. It will disperse all the way back to the horse's hind quarters.

Here's an interesting article written by a virologist about cross-species vaccine dangers.

Cultivating a Killer Virus Shiningthelight's Blog

 

[JessLough]

ok without reading what everybody else wrote, because I tried and got frustrated after 2 or 3 posts... el, you should follow your gut instinct. If you are worried about it, I would give the shot. Atleast then, you will have peace of mind. I mean, what happens if you do not give the shot and (god forbid) one of your dogs gets it? Would you be kicking yourself? I say go with the gut

 

[Grab]

not giving it here either..the clinic I work at has seen no cases (though we do carry the vaccine, and a few clients have had their dogs vaccinated) and I haven't heard of any cases in town at the other clinics. And, aside from the pet store, my dogs aren't around a ton of strange dogs.

I'm also highly uncomfortable with giving a newish vaccine to my own pets. I don't get the flu vaccine for myself...and I'm around a ton more people than my dogs are their own kind

 

[bubbatd]

I trusted my Clinics completely !!! They will do what's best for the dog ~ not $$ . My old Clinic recommended Lymes because we had deer in our woods . Moving here no problems . My old Clinic didn't do Kennel Cough because I never had to kennel . Here I have had to , so do . Ollie's due to go in for his annual , so I'll see what they suggest . Both of my Clinics date back to the 50s so I respect what they say . I was thrilled when they said I didn't need yearly Rabies before it became public !

 

[Sher]

Well, I guess I am in the minority. Lily got her flu shot... (Just like I get mine)

 

[theresa92841]

I would give the vaccine to my dogs. I go by the addage that an oz of preventative is worth a pound of cure.

I called and asked my vet about the vaccine last year. He doesn't stock it.

But I figure I get the flu vaccine for myself, so it makes sense that I would get the pupsters the canine equivalent to help keep them healthy.

 

[Whisper]

No vaccine here. I feel just as worried about the stuff in the vaccines as I do about the illness.
Elegy, there's no right or wrong answer. Just listen to your gut and do what you think is best for your dogs.

 

[colliewog]

I'm waiting for it to be out longer and then I'll decide. It is recommended by one of the vets I used to work for and he's very good about not over-vaccinating and only giving what is necessary. But I still like to see if there are any adverse reactions that didn't show up in testing - I usually wait a year or so after market launch before I try ANYTHING, even drugs for myself.