barking (and training) quandary

[antipunt1]

Hello chazhounders. It's been awhile, and I hope you've all been well.

Wanta is doing pretty well. I have, however, accumulated in this time two general questions. One might be easier to answer than the other.

1) The first question is about dog barking. Wanta is very good about barking, but i'm assuming its because she's too young to grow into those 'bad habits' as of yet. My next door neighbor has a dog that barks INCESSANTLY. I mean, not literally, but you might get the idea. Barking for long bouts of time. Most of the time for no reason IMO.

What is it that makes a dog become a 'barker'. The dog that the neighborhood is dreading because it just keeps on barking? I was curious about this b/c it just doesn't make any evolutionary sense to me? Why bark when there is no need for it?

Also the most important question: how can I prevent this behavior for my pup as it grows older? Or is it generally endowed in a dog's destined personality? Or is it just 'normal' for dogs who end up spending a lot of time outside in the yard?..

PS: this might be over 'paranoia', but is it possible the nextdoor dog could be a 'bad influence' on Wanta?

2) the second question is more 'in your opinion'. Wanta rarely does 'bad things' in the house [well...largely because most of the time she's in the playpen, and doesn't get to 'wander' much], but yesterday she chewed up one of the doggie pads. We replaced it, and then she started tearing again. Now this is where my dad and I got into disagreements.

My dad's response was a very frighteningly stern "no", but a little TOO frightening for my tastes. I was afraid he was terrifying the dog. Now after all the research and reading I've had, I started to wonder if my dad's actions were correct.

My intuition was to stop him because I thought it was too 'violent', similar to verbal abuse. But I may have been wrong b/c I'm a softie. I've thought about it and as a result, my ideal methods as far as I've learned from interacting with forumer and their books, are:

a) Try to give it a time-out as soon as it starts chewing. Repeat if necessary.
b) Buy one of those 'pad avoidance' mechanisms that keeps it from tearing it apart
c) the dog is just frustrated. Try to walk it or burn its energy. The behavior will stop persisting if you do this combined with a, because theoretically, the dog will have no more motives to chew apart the pad

My dad's actions, in MY vision [I'm pretty sure he wasn't thinking this far], is justified as:

a) If I pair a negative stimulus with chewing the pad, she will eventually learn aversive-training to the pad (aka chewing the pad will become an aversive stimulus)

Now theoretically this made sense to me, and it ties into the books/ideas that the forum upholds [AKA that a dog learns purely through Pavlovian conditioning]. However, I was also seeing

b) the dog is learning to be afraid of my dad. It will learn to back away in fear of my dad when he approaches and stop any behavior

Therefore, my mind concluded that maybe the best option was a combination of time-outs and burning energy.


Now that I've posted these thoughts so that the REAL EXPERTS can testify their opinions, what do you think? Have my thoughts made progress, or am I still missing something? Is my dad's method not too bad, and maybe I'm just a softie, and can allow his tactics as well? [and maybe do some kind of hybrid-training, where we allow the frightening No's, but pair it with my positive training?]

Thx Chazhound. Hope all is well ^__________^

 

[Maxy24]

What is it that makes a dog become a 'barker'. The dog that the neighborhood is dreading because it just keeps on barking? I was curious about this b/c it just doesn't make any evolutionary sense to me? Why bark when there is no need for it?

Dogs who bark for no reason are generally bored. Sometimes breed plays into it, hounds tend to bark but I've found something sets them off. Some dogs bark while playing because they are excited. But if a dog is just out in the yard and starts barking he's probably bored and has nothing better to do, stress relief perhaps? Maybe asking to come in.

this might be over 'paranoia', but is it possible the nextdoor dog could be a 'bad influence' on Wanta?

Unfortunately yes, Wanta may start barking back/in cahoots with the other dog. if she does you may want to talk with owner/start filing complaints etc. if the dog is being allowed to do this for long stretches of time. Also try bringing want in when she starts barking so she knows that behavior ends her outdoor time. it is unfair that you dog has to be punished for another dog's behavior, especially something so tempting but if the owner will not bring the dog in or do something about the barking then that may be the only way.

yesterday she chewed up one of the doggie pads. We replaced it, and then she started tearing again. Now this is where my dad and I got into disagreements.

If the pad in a litterbox? they have ones like this: http://www.petstuffresale.com/Pet_Stuff/Dog/080621PuppyPad_lg.jpg
They clip into the box so the dogs don't rip them up, it's a very common problem. I'm not a huge fan of dogs going potty inside but some people have success.
My biggest worry with punishing her for ripping them is that she will fear going near the pads and then you'll have a potty problem. Now using a sharp noise (hey!, eh-eh!, clap hands etc.), as long as it does not cause more than a startle reaction could be okay to interrupt her but then you'd need to redirect to something appropriate with a similar play style (maybe a rope toy that she can pull and shake). If the noise actually causes prolonged fear or calming signals (she refuses to look at you, appears nervous, licks lips etc.) then you may want to avoid that, you simply want her to swing her head around to look at you because you made a big noise, she should look more inquisitive than afraid. Generally more excercise will help but I don't think it would be practical as something you do when she starts chewing, it would just need to be more excercise in general. Try and anticipate when she will chew, if she seems frisky or is beginning to play bow or paw at the pad and redirect her to a toy ASAP, wiggle it around and encourage her to use her toys. predicting behavior is one of the most important things you can do, the dog has a feeling inside that makes her want to chew if you can take that feeling, before it turns into the (rewarding) behavior and tell her what to do when she feels this way it can be a huge help.

 

[antipunt1]

-Barking for boredom does kind of sound plausible. Maybe trying to get some sort of attention, or seething the energy they have because there's nothing else to do. So does that mean that having a "nicer"-puppyhood doesn't decrease the chance of becoming a barker then? I always had this preconception that a lot of barkers didn't have the best young-time, whether it was due to lack of training or general-abuse/neglect.

-Aww..thats a shame. My heart breaks a little when I imagine that my dog could be shaped by my nextdoor neighbor (because at the moment, she's [Wanta is] relatively docile and cute and all). I know I can't really blame them either because they take good care of their dogs in general. It's just that they have a dog (Duncan) who barks for medium-long bouts sporadically when he's out in the yard (and out in the yard he usually is the whole early morning through the afternoon).

Wanta so far is pretty much unreceptive to Duncan's barking, despite spending a good chunk of the early day in the yard herself. I do, however, know that Wanta is still VERY young, so this could go either way I suppose

-Thx for the litterbox suggestion. I may have to clarify Wanta's potty behavior. Usually Wanta prefers the grass (yay). We take her outside all the time whenever we can to get her body's fluids (and others) out in our grassy yard [we are blessed to have a large yard for our dog]. However, there are times when she is in the pen and has to go. The pad is for 'precautionary measures', as it could be imagined that we can't prevent every accident.

I also agree that a 'startle noise' is enough. Ear-deafening, growly No's just don't seem right. I don't recall seeing any trainer ever do stuff like that. It's like my dad is yelling at a 2 yr old baby :yikes:

-noted and agreed with regards to 'predicting the behavior'. I'll stick with that as a primary measure, and also with 'startling noises'.

Thx!

 

[lizzybeth727]

With these two behaviors (barking and tearing up stuff), it's really important to understand the root of the problem.... exactly WHY the dog is doing what he's doing, and then figure out how you can change that.

With barking, as Maxy said, it's probably bordom. Barking relieves stress (just like yelling and screaming relieves stress when we're upset). So, if you prevent the stress - prevent the bordom - the problem should stop. It's also possible to reward the barking.... when the dog barks long enough that his people are fed up, they might let him come into the house. That just teaches him to be persistant.

As far as chewing, it's important to note that dogs don't understand what are "chew toys" and what are not. Everything they see in the house is a potential chew toy. If they never experiment with chewing things in the house, and they only chew on their toys, then you will probably not have a problem with your dog being destructive. Unfortunately, Wanta has discovered that the potty pad is a really fun thing to chew on. The chewing and shredding is now rewarding to her - it's a self-reinforcing behavior - and she will continue to try to do it until it's not reinforcing anymore. In theory, it does make sense that if you make the chewing aversive, the behavior will stop; in practice, this is very difficult to do. You will have to catch her EVERY TIME she starts to put her mouth on the pad, and the aversive stimulus has to be bad enough to counterract the funness of the chewing. You also have to time the aversive just perfectly so that she knows what behavior it is attached to, and you have to make sure that she doesn't associate the aversive with you. If any ONE Of these things doesn't work exactly right, you will have a big problem. That's why I would definately suggest the potty pad holders that will probably prevent the chewing, by making it difficult for her to be able to do the behavior.

 

[antipunt1]

thx for the input lizzy; I understand your point on why aversive training is very hard to do.

perhaps that is why you all focus on positive training. It's just easier/more practical to execute

 

[lizzybeth727]

perhaps that is why you all focus on positive training. It's just easier/more practical to execute

Yep. I would possibly, under very specific circumstances suggest positive punishment to a client in person, but ONLY after I got to know the person (to see if they would be capable of doing the correct timing), the dog (to see if it would cause any adverse effects, such as fear), and and only as a last resort. THat said, I would NEVER suggest aversive methods to someone on a public forum without having met that person.

If you do positive reinforcement training wrong, the worst thing you will get is a dog who begs for food, or a dog who you will have to bribe to get him to do a behavior. If you do positive punishment training wrong, you could get a dog who has fears and phobias, which could turn into aggression, which could turn him into the shelter or worse. Easy to see which one I'd prefer.

 

[Doberluv]

I was curious about this b/c it just doesn't make any evolutionary sense to me? Why bark when there is no need for it?

It makes sense because domestic dogs are thought to be neotenic as adults....that is that they retain juvenile characteristics. Pups of all canids bark for various reasons. They need to bark to alert their parents that they are hungry or that they're distressed. They bark as a survival thing...communication.

Our dogs bark for the reasons already stated but also just because it's fun to hear themselves bark. Their reasons may not be legitimate to our way of thinking but it's their way.

There are ways to train a dog to stop barking on cue. I've posted one or two methods....if you do a search, you might find it. If not, I'll dig it up and post it again. But the underlying needs, such as ample socialization, exercise, mental stimulation must be in place for any training to be effective.