article about wolves...

[stirder]

I've been reading lately on several sites (not here unless I missed it somewhere) about how people are convinced the wolves reintroduced to wyoming, idaho, montana are going to decimate the livestock populations. they say the ranchers accosiations are reporting heavy losses, on the war path, etc. I just read an amazing article with quite a few quotes from ranchers, head of a ranching commission, and no quotes from people on the other side of the fence (wolf supporters). since this is written from the perspective of cattle ranchers and their legal supporters I was extremely suprised by what I read. in montana in 2003 the non-profit wildlife group which reimburces ranchers for killed livestock paid for 24 cattle and 86 sheep that were confirmed by vets to have been killed by wolves. there were 2.4 million cattle and 300,000 sheep in montana. pretty low kill rate huh?
but ranchers for the most part are not going out and shooting wolves, or poisoning or even petitioning for their removal. sure some are, but not the majority. and most of those who are doing those things do not live in wolf territory.
I suggest picking up a copy of the August 2005 issue of "WESTERN HORSEMAN" and reading the article "RANGE RIDERS" which begins on page 30. its pretty interesting.

 

[Doberluv]

That is interesting how they're reimburcing ranchers. It's good that they allow the wolves to be. We have wolves here where I live, not too much further north...very rarely seen but there have been a few reports from hikers. This is in the north panhandle of Idaho. The Fish and Wildlife Dept. has been doing studies on them a lot lately...I forget where exactly.

 

[stirder]

I dont know about recently but Jim Dutcher was involved with a huge study in the sawtooth wilderness area a few years back. might still be doing it? looking for another article a read years ago now, about wolves in northern minnesotta and how they have (or had, was years ago) only I think 10 kills a year from wolves. sheep, goats and cattle. they inteviewed I think a dozen ranhcers who all said they had no problem with wolves, most because they went back to basics and put anatolian shepherds, greay pyrenees, and CO's with the sheep and goats.

 

[Buckshot]

My family lives in the states they are doing this in. Many of these folks are ranchers. They protest the reintroduction of wolves. Of course I cant stand a family get together without stirring up a hornet nest so I always bring this subject up. I have met many ranchers who exploit wildlife for profit and I have no sympathy for them. They refuse to let anyone hunt thier property yet they bait in elk for trophy hunters to shoot who pay thousands of dollars. Many also get crop damage money and wont allow people to hunt their land. Many also block off all access to public land so that the public land is inaccesable even for people on foot.

If they introduce a large amount of predators I cant see why they wouldnt kill the newborn calves. This is an easy meal. I know the coyotes take their share during calving season so I cant see why wolves wouldnt take even more.

I guess I would rather see the fences go away, the bison, wolves and grizzlies return. A rancher would have to tend his herd constantly. I suppose I was born 200 years too late.

 

[stirder]

wolves avoid man. coyotes have mulitplied exponentially in spite of our attempts at erradicating them. and the majority of claims of calf and lamb, cow and sheep kills are proven by both wildlife officials and private vets to have died of natural causes or still born, and merely fed upon by opportunistic wolves or coyotes. I dont deny the fact that they will kill livestock, that has been proven. however there have been cattle, sheep, goat and horse ranchers west of the mississippi for more than 200 years. there have been wolves in the north west US for what 10 years? in some parts of north western montana they have been there a lot longer. in northern minnesotta the wolf returned in the 60's and coexists with ranchers and shepherds very well with nearly no casualties. in most of canada the wolf, grizzly, cougar and wolverine have never been eradicated, and they also have nearly no casualties. the reason is the ranchers and shepherds in minnesotta and canada either use flok gaurdian dogs, or range riders who constantly patrol the herds and deter predators. this is what has proven so succesfull and inspired the article I referenced. and even the ranchers and shepherds in minnesotta admitted that the casualties they have experienced were partly due to their error. they had a calf or cow, lamb or sheep, kid or goat die and tossed it across the fence at the edge of the woods. when they did that it wasnt long before they found an animal killed by wolves or coyotes and such. if they disposed of the dead animal properly, they had no problem. that is a big problem when hundreds or thousands of cattle are running loose on thousands-100's of thousands of acres of public/government land with no range riders patrolling. but not a problem when they hire range riders.
and personally I much prefer bison meat to beef. I wish more ranchers would switch to bison and elk ranching. I've read quite a few articles about ranchers doing this, and making a lot higher profit due to these species being much hardier (they were designed by millions of years of evalution to live here) so they have to spend less on vaccinations, growth hormones etc. higher survival rate and reproductive rate (survival wise, more calves survive) and they cause less errosion, and less damage to the browse. they are lower in fat and cholestoral so their meat is healthier. I am 6 foot tall and 180 pounds and blessed with an extremely high metabollism, I dont worry about my fat intake. I do think bison and elk taste far better though. okay, now Im getting very hungry so need food.

 

[blue]

Areas of reindtroduction with wolves will take a good while for the population to grow before the wolf kill rate to raise the hackles of the ranchers.

I like the idea of keeping the wolves low and the moose high, love moose meat. If I can afford enough land maybe Ill start a moose ranch and let the locals argue on the moose wolf controll.

 

[stirder]

well, if you read the studies by the alaska, canadian, and minnesota wildlife departments, wolf and mosse populations are enter related. the best example would be isle royale national park where the ONLY human intervention is research and a very small number of tourists every year. the wildlife population is miles from the mainland, they are only able to travel back and forth every few winters. so for years they can be completely isolated. the only wildlife besides fish and ungodly numbers of flies and mosquitoes is wolves, moose, otter, squirrels, mice and birds (namely ravens). so besides the blood suckers there is no predator on the island opther than wolves. one year the wolves will have a high success rate (kill and breeding/survival) and the moose population will drop. due to the wolf #'s rising and moose #'s dropping, the wolves suddenly have more mouths to feed, but less moose to feed them with. that causes the wolf population to drop, which in turn causes the moose population to rise. the moose have fewer enemies (wolf mouths) and breed more succesfully, then winter hits and their high numbers have eaten more of the vegetation so they starve during the winter. due to higher #'s of sick and dead moose, the wolves have a higher success rate on hunts which leads to higher reproductive and survival rates and suddenly the roles switch back to higher #'s of wolves and lower #'s of moose. every year one is higher and one is lower.
on the mainland its a bit different due to easier ability for moose to travel and intermingle, same with wolves. however its not a whole lot different because what must be kept in mind is the fact that a wolf pack keeps a territory, and outside of that will be other wolf packs who also protect their territories. so a wolf pack with a low hunt/kill rate may be doomed because leaving their territory to hunt could bring them into contact with another wolf pack who may have had a really high hunt rate and have larger numbers.
according to the alaska wildlife department, when they allowed aireal hunting of wolves a year or 2 ago, they reported a 25% decrease in the moose and caribou population. thats the largest decrease in more than 30 years. all other factors (weather, vegetation etc) have been prime for the moose and caribou. the only KNOWN factor that is believed by scientists and game agents both for and against the hunting of wolves (hunting of wolves has been allowed, but aireal hunting had been banned for years and increased the # of wolves killed per year) to have lead to the moose population dropping is the allowance of aireal hunting of wolves. after allowing it again, the # of wolves killed by hunters increased. due to lowered #'s of wolves the moose population temporarily increased drastically and hunters were happy. they believe the drop is directly linked to the drop in wolf numbers. they keep each others #'s balanced.
and the wolf predation rate on livestock in northern minnesota is no higher than the current rate in the northwestern reintroduction areas. wolves have been there for a very long time, without increased predation on livestock.

 

[Renee750il]

wolves avoid man. coyotes have mulitplied exponentially in spite of our attempts at erradicating them. and the majority of claims of calf and lamb, cow and sheep kills are proven by both wildlife officials and private vets to have died of natural causes or still born, and merely fed upon by opportunistic wolves or coyotes.

The coyotes have become a large problem here, having shoved the natural predators out of their environmental niche. They are also losing their fear of humans and human habitations, as well as becoming crossed with feral dogs, a dire combination as it further decreases their fear and is generally increasing their size.

We've rescued one bull calf from coyotes. The coyotes were at him literally as he was being born . . . and they are attacking dogs, even a neighboring Rottie who was in his pen at night. One good thing came of it, the Rottie now sleeps in the house!

 

[stirder]

coyotes are becoming a roblem in many areas. california for one has hundreds of small pets killed each year by them. coy-dogs (coyote dog crosses) are still considered urban myth to rare occurance depending on the area. but yes it does happen.

 

[blue]

Do you have a break down by region? The arireal hunts are only in certain areas not state wide IIRC. Where the studies only done in the areas where the aireal hunts where allowwed or statewide? Did the number of hunting permits increase with the increase of Moose and Caribou and did the amount poaching increase as well?

 

[Renee750il]

coyotes are becoming a roblem in many areas. california for one has hundreds of small pets killed each year by them. coy-dogs (coyote dog crosses) are still considered urban myth to rare occurance depending on the area. but yes it does happen.

Yeah, it does happen. I've seen them in the pasture and dead on the side of the road. We've also got a bounty hunter who's been assigned a quadrant that includes our land and he's brought a few of them in. It's one thing to read up on them, another to deal with them in real life.

I saw a pair trying to lure Bimmer over the ridge . . . that kind of stopped as soon as he called for Buffy and she came charging across the pasture, lol! For some reason the coyotes - even the crosses - really like to keep their distance from these pups

 

[stirder]

I saw a pair trying to lure Bimmer over the ridge . . . that kind of stopped as soon as he called for Buffy and she came charging across the pasture, lol! For some reason the coyotes - even the crosses - really like to keep their distance from these pups

lol, imagine that!!! I would keep my distance too.
I will look around tomorrow for a break down, tonight I am sleepy and I promised my wife I wouldnt be on here more than 30 minutes this session, already been on for about 20. I dont want to swear anything untill tomorrow, but Im pretty sure the hunting permits didnt go up. the largest study I read about was done in denali national park I think but not positive. might have been a national forest. the amount of moose and caribou taken may have increased when their numbers did as well, natives are allowed to hunt without permits and do not have to report kills in most if not all areas.
I do know the studies have been on going for over 15 years and all come up with the same results. predation on livestock varies from region to region and seems to coincide with lower numbers of natural prey. and most of the wolves captured who were the culprites of livestock predation where injured, sick, old, or released/escaped wolf dogs.
I'll try to find that info again tomorrow.

 

[blue]

Im going to be selfish here and maybe be less drain on your research. I for one am not concerned with predation on livestock. You have done alot of research on these matters, my main interest would be the issue of growwing more moose in Alaska. If I am supporting meathods I thought would grow more moose, like aireal hunts, I would like to see the data that debunks it. Ive rethought my take on the aireal hunts, the last nail was your posts, I will take a wolf as long as its done legaly and ethicaly, aireal is not ethical.

In my mind, I understand the balance of nature, the more wolves mean less moose, add hunters you need even less wolves to have more moose, there for hunting wolves to keep the moose numbers high to feed more famillies.

Alaska is a large area and the Denali area is much more controlled than most due to its popularity, again IIRC.

 

[mrose_s]

that reimburcement idea is disgusting. Ranchers arnt worried about the cattle, they are worried about their profits. I fin that very difficult to think about. An animal DIES and so long as it is replaced, everyone is happy????

 

[Renee750il]

That's pretty much the way it is with the big ranches, Mrose. Some have thousands of head of cattle, and every single one of those animals is going to end up at the slaughterhouse at some point in time - unless they die on the range by some accident or predation.

 

[DKim81]

People don't realize reintroduciton of one species could mean devastation to many many others. Even on tropical islands some people have introduced smoe plant species for looks.. to find that they have decimated a lot of animals as well... gotta be careful.. Livestock may not be the only concern involved.

 

[stirder]

well, introducing is a lot different from reintroducing. for instance the mongoose was introduced to hawaii to control the cane rats which were accidentally introduced. cane rats get as big as mongoose so the mongoose only eat baby cane rats and not enough to get rid of them, they have nearly gotten rid of several endangered species of birds though.
the turkey was nearl extinct in many states for over 100 years. it has succesfully been reintroduced and has not caused any other native species to struggle. the missouri, oklahoma and texas fish and wildlife agents will tell you if you ask, that those 3 states now have viable breeding populations (self sustaining) even though the last ones in missouri were killed in the 1800's, last 2 in texas other than big bend national park area were killed in the early 1900's. they are protected species in those states so cannot be killed. the conservation agents have trapped and tagged a bunch of them and have to release them unless they show signs of captivity (de-clawed, fangs removed, worn calluses on feet from pacing, etc) and in 2003 I spoke with the head game warden for st louis county missouri (friend of my brothers for years, ever since bro got his falconers license) and he told me that in 2003 alone they live trapped over 75 mountain lions in the state, west and south west st louis county. 3 showed signs of being in captivity and had to be sent to a reserve/sanctuary. but if you read about the deer population in those areas/states/counties you will find that the deer population has not dropped, it has actually grown.
side note, north central texas (denton area) has the largest population of exotic cats in the americas, also the largest population of feral exotic cats in the americas. they have a breeding population (they estimate) of cougars, leopards, and jaguars.
but if you are reintroducing a species that evolved to coexist with the surviving native species then they wont be decimated.

 

[Zoom]

Man, I wish we had something around here to keep down the deer population other than the errant SUV. Right now I'm smack dab in the middle of suburbia and I see more deer here than I ever do outside of town. I think they all move in for the free garden lunches.

But I am happy to hear that the wolf reintroduction is going well. It's something I've privately pulled for for quite some time.

 

[Adrienne]

Lucky me, right smack dab in the middle of wolf country! LOL! Just watched an amazing show on Animal Planet today, Growing up Wolf, took place at a rehabilitation center here in Minnesota. The wolves were rescued during the aeiral "raids" and they have now successfully bred through artificial insemination. I hope there are always wolves around in Minnesota, they are so beautiful. I had the luck of running into a pure black wolf one time at my cabin. Certainly a sight to see (from a distance!).